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Post by drbill on Oct 18, 2016 12:10:23 GMT -6
The whole concept is "is there a difference between cables"? Not, "is there a difference between cables if we make them as close to each other as possible". Just my thoughts. I like the $3 Monoprice vs. $300 audiophile test.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 18, 2016 12:15:43 GMT -6
power grid > step down transformer > domestic supply > power distribution board inc. circuit breakers/fuses > house wiring > wall outlet/switch > IEC power cable > IEC inlet socket in equipment > internal fuse > power switch > transformer primary > transformer secondary > bridge rectifier > filter capacitors > local regulation/filtration etc.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 18, 2016 12:28:24 GMT -6
Powered studio monitors would be great to try it on, but getting two of the same cords is pricey, because you'd have to buy them new. So, I'd stick to one, and ask people to try them on their home stereo amp or their preamp. It can be fun just trying it on most everything. With some devices you might not hear any difference, with some you might.
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2016 13:05:45 GMT -6
The whole concept is "is there a difference between cables"? Not, "is there a difference between cables if we make them as close to each other as possible". Just my thoughts. I like the $3 Monoprice vs. $300 audiophile test. Eh? That's like saying that you'd like to have a race between a ferrari and a jetta. You already know one is at a disadvantage simply due to the size of the engine. You know that a larger gauge cable would theoretically beat a smaller gauge cable, regardless of pricetag, so it should be 3$ monoprice cable of some gauge vs. the 300$ cable of the same gauge. Lets see if it's something other than conductor gauge that is the special sauce, because lets face it, that's what people are hinting at here, that there is some kind of special magic about 300$ cables that can't be quantified.
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Post by BradM on Oct 18, 2016 13:18:15 GMT -6
The whole concept is "is there a difference between cables"? Not, "is there a difference between cables if we make them as close to each other as possible". Just my thoughts. I like the $3 Monoprice vs. $300 audiophile test. Eh? That's like saying that you'd like to have a race between a ferrari and a jetta. You already know one is at a disadvantage simply due to the size of the engine. You know that a larger gauge cable would theoretically beat a smaller gauge cable, regardless of pricetag, so it should be 3$ monoprice cable of some gauge vs. the 300$ cable of the same gauge. Lets see if it's something other than conductor gauge that is the special sauce, because lets face it, that's what people are hinting at here, that there is some kind of special magic about 300$ cables that can't be quantified. For the sake of making music, does it really matter what the mechanism is that causes the music to sound better? I think we start with "does a $300 cord sound better than a $3 cord?" If the answer is no, then game over. If the answer is yes, then by all means let's continue by evaluating "does a $300 cord sound better than a $50 cord?" I don't think anyone is hinting at magic. And the interest most of us have admittedly may not be the same interest you have in trying to reverse engineer and quantify said "magic". My question to you, svart , is: Will you at least listen to the cables before whipping out the lab gear? I would encourage you to make whatever scientific inquiries you'd like to satisfy your own curiosity. But let's start with our ears before determining we need to dissect something. It could end there for a lot of us. Especially those of us that are very skeptical about the Ferrari beating the Jetta. Monoprice, by the way, does not offer 14 AWG, 12 AWG, or 10 AWG cables. The second you buy some 12 gauge wire, put on some connectors...well then you effectively have made a "high end" power cord like this: signalcable.com/magicpower.htmlBrad
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 18, 2016 13:24:57 GMT -6
Most of the cables I've seen come with gear qualify as POS. A $10 shielded power cable will get you most of the way there.
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2016 13:30:18 GMT -6
Eh? That's like saying that you'd like to have a race between a ferrari and a jetta. You already know one is at a disadvantage simply due to the size of the engine. You know that a larger gauge cable would theoretically beat a smaller gauge cable, regardless of pricetag, so it should be 3$ monoprice cable of some gauge vs. the 300$ cable of the same gauge. Lets see if it's something other than conductor gauge that is the special sauce, because lets face it, that's what people are hinting at here, that there is some kind of special magic about 300$ cables that can't be quantified. For the sake of making music, does it really matter what the mechanism is that causes the music to sound better? I think we start with "does a $300 cord sound better than a $3 cord?" If the answer is no, then game over. If the answer is yes, then by all means let's continue by evaluating "does a $300 cord sound better than a $50 cord?" I don't think anyone is hinting at magic. And the interest most of us have admittedly may not be the same interest you have in trying to reverse engineer and quantify said "magic". My question to you, svart , is: Will you at least listen to the cables before whipping out the lab gear? I would encourage you to make whatever scientific inquiries you'd like to satisfy your own curiosity. But let's start with our ears before determining we need to dissect something. It could end there for a lot of us. Monoprice by the way does not offer 14 AWG, 12 AWG, or 10 AWG cables. The second you buy some 12 gauge wire, put on some connectors...well then you effectively have made a "high end" power cord like this: signalcable.com/magicpower.htmlBrad But that's not what we're discussing. The skeptics are wanting to know if there is some kind of unknown "magic" in a 300$ power cord that isn't in a standard cord. However, most folks astute enough to care about power cords in the first place would know to buy one with a heavier gauge. So my question back to you is, if you know you're introducing an obvious difference in conductor gauge in favor of the 300$ cable, are you not skewing the test in favor of the 300$ cable before any tests have even been performed? In reverse, you could essentially choose a POS power cord that has conductors that are too small for the application and also skew the test in favor of the 300$ cable again. My point is that without matching the KNOWN attributes, you CAN NOT test whether there are unknown attributes of a system. I think if anyone is not willing to match conductor gauges (AND LENGTH) between a cheap cable and a 300$ cable, then they are not interested in doing the test correctly and you could never get a fair comparison. And if I put a couple connectors on some super-heavy gauge cable and make my own "high-end" cable, I can do so for 5$. I certainly don't need to spend 300$ to do so.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 18, 2016 13:31:25 GMT -6
The cable must be capable of supplying sufficient current to the equipment being used. A 'piece of shit' 10 amp cable @ 120Vac equates to 1200 watts. A 20 amp cable would be 2400 watts. The last time I checked their specs, my four Aphex 651 Expressors each required 12watts of power to operate. You do the math. Naturally the longer the cable, the greater the losses so therefore the wire gauge should be increased to offset potential losses if this is indeed occurring but this typically is more of an issue with high power consumption gear. Hi powered PA systems are a situation where both power and speaker cable impedences are highly critical as current demands can be very high. If the cable is being used continuously at or near its maximum rating then it is wise to increase the wire gauge. For most situations the standard IEC cable will be more than adequate especially for low powered gear. You do not need to spend $300, let alone $1,500 or especially $11,000 (FFS!) to achieve this. If the cable includes some kind of additional inline filtering that is something else again. If in doubt it's not rocket science to find a suitable gauge cable to meet the minimum requirements of the gear it is connecting to the mains.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 18, 2016 13:34:57 GMT -6
Eh? That's like saying that you'd like to have a race between a ferrari and a jetta. You already know one is at a disadvantage simply due to the size of the engine. You know that a larger gauge cable would theoretically beat a smaller gauge cable, regardless of pricetag, so it should be 3$ monoprice cable of some gauge vs. the 300$ cable of the same gauge. Lets see if it's something other than conductor gauge that is the special sauce, because lets face it, that's what people are hinting at here, that there is some kind of special magic about 300$ cables that can't be quantified. For the sake of making music, does it really matter what the mechanism is that causes the music to sound better? I think we start with "does a $300 cord sound better than a $3 cord?" If the answer is no, then game over. If the answer is yes, then by all means let's continue by evaluating "does a $300 cord sound better than a $50 cord?" I don't think anyone is hinting at magic. And the interest most of us have admittedly may not be the same interest you have in trying to reverse engineer and quantify said "magic". My question to you, svart , is: Will you at least listen to the cables before whipping out the lab gear? I would encourage you to make whatever scientific inquiries you'd like to satisfy your own curiosity. But let's start with our ears before determining we need to dissect something. It could end there for a lot of us. Especially those of us that are very skeptical about the Ferrari beating the Jetta. Monoprice, by the way, does not offer 14 AWG, 12 AWG, or 10 AWG cables. The second you buy some 12 gauge wire, put on some connectors...well then you effectively have made a "high end" power cord like this: signalcable.com/magicpower.htmlBrad Monoprice does have a 14 AWG power cable... www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=5292I think that's the right one anyway, right?
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Post by BradM on Oct 18, 2016 13:42:50 GMT -6
Sweet! Good find. That must be new since I last looked. I stand corrected. I may have to pick up one to compare to the Volex 17504 I'm using with Silver Bullets. This could become my new supply. Thanks, man! Brad
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 18, 2016 13:44:27 GMT -6
Sweet! Good find. That must be new since I last looked. I stand corrected. I may have to pick up one to compare to the Volex 17504 I'm using with Silver Bullets. This may become my new supply. Thanks, man! Brad Feel free to send a Silver Bullet my way as a thank you.
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Post by BradM on Oct 18, 2016 13:53:56 GMT -6
But that's not what we're discussing. The skeptics are wanting to know if there is some kind of unknown "magic" in a 300$ power cord that isn't in a standard cord. However, most folks astute enough to care about power cords in the first place would know to buy one with a heavier gauge. So my question back to you is, if you know you're introducing an obvious difference in conductor gauge in favor of the 300$ cable, are you not skewing the test in favor of the 300$ cable before any tests have even been performed? In reverse, you could essentially choose a POS power cord that has conductors that are too small for the application and also skew the test in favor of the 300$ cable again. My point is that without matching the KNOWN attributes, you CAN NOT test whether there are unknown attributes of a system. I think if anyone is not willing to match conductor gauges (AND LENGTH) between a cheap cable and a 300$ cable, then they are not interested in doing the test correctly and you could never get a fair comparison. And if I put a couple connectors on some super-heavy gauge cable and make my own "high-end" cable, I can do so for 5$. I certainly don't need to spend 300$ to do so. You (and others) have argued in previous posts that as long as the power cord meets the requirements to supply current to the device then there should be no audible difference. Let's run with that. I'm saying that based on that premise an 18 AWG cable meets that requirement for most pieces of studio equipment. Which I believe is what rowmat just posted as well. So if both cables are meeting that requirement I think it's fair to compare them for a first order analysis. Again my point is: if despite the differences in specs I hear no audible difference, then the argument is moot whether or not the lack of controlled variables mattered. I think you would agree. Both the Jetta and Ferrari, when stuck in traffic, go 10 mph just fine. Right now, I'm skeptical I'm going to hear a difference between the $3 Monoprice cable and the $300 audiophile one....regardless of specs. Let's start first order, then dig into the granular details. That's sound engineering practice...well at least based on my personal experience working in the aerospace industry the last 18 years. Brad
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Post by drbill on Oct 18, 2016 14:02:37 GMT -6
The whole concept is "is there a difference between cables"? Not, "is there a difference between cables if we make them as close to each other as possible". Just my thoughts. I like the $3 Monoprice vs. $300 audiophile test. Eh? That's like saying that you'd like to have a race between a ferrari and a jetta. You already know one is at a disadvantage simply due to the size of the engine. So you're admitting that there's a difference between cables then? Sure sounds like it.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 18, 2016 14:11:23 GMT -6
Eh? That's like saying that you'd like to have a race between a ferrari and a jetta. You already know one is at a disadvantage simply due to the size of the engine. So you're admitting that there's a difference between cables then? Sure sounds like it. Maybe if you're planning to use them to run a welder, but if you're using them to power your Aphex Expressor... no.
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Post by drbill on Oct 18, 2016 14:14:18 GMT -6
For the sake of making music, does it really matter what the mechanism is that causes the music to sound better? I think we start with "does a $300 cord sound better than a $3 cord?" If the answer is no, then game over. If the answer is yes, then by all means let's continue by evaluating "does a $300 cord sound better than a $50 cord?" I don't think anyone is hinting at magic. And the interest most of us have admittedly may not be the same interest you have in trying to reverse engineer and quantify said "magic". My question to you, svart , is: Will you at least listen to the cables before whipping out the lab gear? I would encourage you to make whatever scientific inquiries you'd like to satisfy your own curiosity. But let's start with our ears before determining we need to dissect something. It could end there for a lot of us. Monoprice by the way does not offer 14 AWG, 12 AWG, or 10 AWG cables. The second you buy some 12 gauge wire, put on some connectors...well then you effectively have made a "high end" power cord like this: signalcable.com/magicpower.htmlBrad But that's not what we're discussing. The skeptics are wanting to know if there is some kind of unknown "magic" in a 300$ power cord that isn't in a standard cord. However, most folks astute enough to care about power cords in the first place would know to buy one with a heavier gauge. Most houses have 14GA romex, so to satisfy you and the skeptics, order the cheapest piece of 14GA IEC cable you can find. That satisfies both parties and should solve the ferrari vs jetta issue as well.
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2016 14:17:52 GMT -6
But that's not what we're discussing. The skeptics are wanting to know if there is some kind of unknown "magic" in a 300$ power cord that isn't in a standard cord. However, most folks astute enough to care about power cords in the first place would know to buy one with a heavier gauge. Most houses have 14GA romex, so to satisfy you and the skeptics, order the cheapest piece of 14GA IEC cable you can find. That satisfies both parties and should solve the ferrari vs jetta issue as well. That's 14ga solid conductor, vs. a 14ga stranded cable. Very different current handling and power flow attributes.
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Post by drbill on Oct 18, 2016 14:18:10 GMT -6
So you're admitting that there's a difference between cables then? Sure sounds like it. Maybe if you're planning to use them to run a welder, but if you're using them to power your Aphex Expressor... no. I think a welder is a bit more demanding on it's power requirements than a Expressor. This is perhaps the stupidest and most biased conversation I've been involved in in years. Maybe a decade. Believe what you want. I'm OUT. Brad will have to handle this on his own.
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2016 14:23:11 GMT -6
Eh? That's like saying that you'd like to have a race between a ferrari and a jetta. You already know one is at a disadvantage simply due to the size of the engine. So you're admitting that there's a difference between cables then? Sure sounds like it. LOL, man you sure are reaching for the strawman there.. But he's just out of grasp. Sure, you can take a 2$ 18ga POS cable and a 2$ 12ga POS cable and there would be a difference. Nobody is arguing that. They're arguing that there is nothing in a 300$ cable that creates a situation that improves performance over unity. I think the constant refusals to compare equal gauge/length cables is actually an admission of doubt..
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Post by wiz on Oct 18, 2016 14:36:29 GMT -6
I am happy to kick in say 10 or 15 bucks to buy one of these fancy power cords that was on that video... and send it around to you guys... playing pass the power cord.. send it to Nashville... get Randy, John, Shannon over to Jerome or Randys Studio, where I have physically listened to music.. and get them to blind test it on a piece of gear....
cheers
Wiz
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Post by drbill on Oct 18, 2016 14:43:36 GMT -6
So you're admitting that there's a difference between cables then? Sure sounds like it. LOL, man you sure are reaching for the strawman there.. But he's just out of grasp. Sure, you can take a 2$ 18ga POS cable and a 2$ 12ga POS cable and there would be a difference. Nobody is arguing that. They're arguing that there is nothing in a 300$ cable that creates a situation that improves performance over unity. I think the constant refusals to compare equal gauge/length cables is actually an admission of doubt.. I will make this simple. I concede defeat. You are indeed the Electrical Engineer genius who knows better than all - including Jim Williams and Brad McGowan. Have a wonderful day. I will not take my straw man and go home..... PS - Even my contractor won't use 18, 16 or 14GA extension cords. I guess he knows something we all don't.....
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Post by rowmat on Oct 18, 2016 14:46:24 GMT -6
Maybe if you're planning to use them to run a welder, but if you're using them to power your Aphex Expressor... no. I think a welder is a bit more demanding on it's power requirements than a Expressor. This is perhaps the stupidest and most biased conversation I've been involved in in years. Maybe a decade. Believe what you want. I'm OUT. Brad will have to handle this on his own. So if I'm to read what you just said correctly, using the POS cable won't compromise the sound of the Expressor? If that's what you indeed meant I agree with you 100%.
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Post by LesC on Oct 18, 2016 14:49:12 GMT -6
This is perhaps the stupidest and most biased conversation I've been involved in in years. Maybe a decade. Believe what you want. I'm OUT. Brad will have to handle this on his own. I agree, I'm not sure why each side has to denigrate the other. I think Brad's suggestion would be a great first step to see if there is truly a difference. I have several expensive pieces of equipment, including pieces from the two sides of this argument, a SvartBox and a Dr. Bill's Stereo Tone-Amp (Silver Bullet). I suspect like many others, I've always used the power cord that was supplied with the box, possibly wrongly assuming that a manufacturer of a multi-thousand dollar box isn't going to supply a POS power cord that can't supply the required current. But I would love to find out if I've been fooling myself. I don't want to make sure the POS and the $300 cable have to be the same gauge. I want to hear if there is a difference between a $300 cable and whatever got supplied by the manufacturer. If there is a difference, then as the next step I would like to hear if a $5 SvartCable sounds identical to the $300 cable. So I would find it useful to compare the 3 cables, the one supplied by the manufacturer, the $300 cable, and the SvartCable.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 18, 2016 14:52:57 GMT -6
+1. Can we have a bad ass SvartCable included in the comparison with the cheap Monoprice, and $300 cable? That sounds like a great test.
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Post by wiz on Oct 18, 2016 14:53:22 GMT -6
why are these changes , always positive in outcome? cheers Wiz I think that's part of what the skeptics are saying, that a lot of the "positive" outcomes are either based in "paid" reviews of a product, or confirmation bias. You spent money on something expecting a difference, therefor you heard a difference kinda thing. I hear it all the time in bands who decide to record themselves. They expect that only they could do their own music justice, so therefor the result is "superior" to going to a professional studio.. Even when it really sounds awful to everyone else. Here's the thing... lets say there is a difference.... between a perfectly appropriate power cord, and one of the ones in Pensado's video... You swap it out... sound changes... I have never read once, that the change was negative... Thats startling in itself... in every other area of this game... change, even more expensive change.. can result in a outcome that people don't like. Now, if plugging something in, makes you feel and perform better, by all means plug something in... and hit record... I am all for that... thats the "art" side of what we do... and its real.. its something that I believe... But there is also the engineering side of the game as well... I don't really understand people getting upset about the argument, or discussion, one way or the other... I would genuinely like to know, what people think is happening, when they take a 3 foot piece of wire, and put it between the wall socket and the gear. 1. WHY? is it now causing the gear its powering to change its sound... what is happening to the 115V 60Hz power going through the cable, that is not present without that cable....? 2. Why are the capacitors in the power supply storing and supplying DC differently...? 3. Why are the DC voltage rails inside that piece of gear, more stable, or functioning differently (always in a better sounding fashion) than without that piece of cable? Its wire... it can't ADD power... so to speak, there are no filtering (capacitors and resistors) within it to smooth out ripple... there to my mind are only 3 possible things it can do, that might be better than the previous cable that it replaced... 1. provide better physical contact to the wall socket and or the piece of gear its plugged into. 2. The wire gauge transfers the energy from the wall socket, to the device, in spec... which would mean the previous cable could not. 3. Shielding stopping magnetic interference. I could understand if it was more than just the power cable.... but honestly.... just for a second.. think of the wire that runs from the back of the IEC connector in a piece of gear.. to the power transformer or PCB... then think of the trace on the PCB from the connector to the first component of the power supply... what about those? Power supplies within gear supply DC (and in tube gear AC) power to the rails.... the components hanging off the rails do what ever task is required. The line voltage coming out of the wall... fluctuates... all the time... its never spot on.. continuously... do you think you hear your quality modulating with the fluctuation of the supply....? Why is that? Why does the quality change when you replace the power cord... does it make the voltage go up? Does it make it go down? does it stabilise the frequency... does it filter out ripple...? See, I am posing, serious technical questions and my theory as to why I find it hard to fathom HOW replacing that perfectly appropriate 10 buck power cord with 190 one in the video, can effect gear? and then why is that effect, always good? Surely, if you believe that it does.. we can have a stable, intellectual discussion about how you think that is transpiring... I am happy to learn.... Also, if you don't have the technical understanding to do that.. but feel artistically that it works, I am happy to have that discussion as well.... cheers Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Oct 18, 2016 14:54:46 GMT -6
I think we need to make it clear whether this discussion concerns just current supply limitations of one cable versus another. Because there are those who claim to hear sonic improvements that appear to be unrelated to supply current restrictions.
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