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Post by guitfiddler on May 4, 2019 15:40:37 GMT -6
These U87’s are just like any older vintage piece...you never know what your going to get until you try them out.
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Post by Bender on May 4, 2019 16:12:44 GMT -6
These U87’s are just like any older vintage piece...you never know what your going to get until you try them out. Making buying remote THAT much more difficult.
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Post by brenta on May 4, 2019 16:16:08 GMT -6
I did some research and it is a U87Ai, it doesn't have the battery pack, but it has the same insides as any U87ai's I have seen. I am waiting on Neumann to let me know more about it. I sent in my serial number. Thanks I thought you mentioned it had a U89 PCB? I've never seen an 87 with an 89 PCB. Especially a vintage mic. Maybe Neunamm did that at some point, but I doubt it. The one who could answer that would be Grosser or Klaus Heyne. Almost 4 years later...surprising but true, many (most?) u87Ai’s use the U89 PCB. But you’re right that no vintage non-Ai 87 will have the U89 PCB. Maybe if we’re lucky Klaus will come along and give us more details, but I think in the mid 90’s they tweaked the circuit and started using the U89 PCB. I’m not 100% sure if the newest ones still use it or not. My “Circuit Diagram 3” Ai has the U89 PCB but Neumann is up to Circuit Diagram 6 now for 87s.
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Post by m03 on May 4, 2019 16:17:01 GMT -6
but what are your thoughts when it comes to tone & asking price for a 70's u87 with a "new" capsule. If it's a Neumann capsule, I think I'd be far more confident in taking a risk on one with a new capsule vs one with an original capsule with ~50 years of unquantifiable wear and tear.
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Post by chessparov on May 4, 2019 16:41:58 GMT -6
The vintage U87's are worth so much today... I'd be tempted to score a nice used U89 instead, as an alternative choice, for around $1600. Chris
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Post by drbill on May 4, 2019 16:43:39 GMT -6
The vintage U87's are worth so much today... Chris What are they going for nowadays Chris?
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Post by chessparov on May 4, 2019 16:54:50 GMT -6
From what I've seen (assuming excellent condition), easily $2500 plus. Generally asking 3K+. More if it's the rare "Black Badge" version. Chris
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Post by Bender on May 4, 2019 17:05:02 GMT -6
From what I've seen (assuming excellent condition), easily $2500 plus. Generally asking 3K+. More if it's the rare "Black Badge" version. Chris From what I've seen lately they've been close to 3k asking price, but I've seen them go for great condition around 2200-2400 as well depending on how old & serviced they are ...considering 3k is about the price of a new ai..... I have seen the 89's too, with a more attractive price, but that's a different tone & circuit from what I understand.
Here's some past transactions on sales from reverb for 1970's nickel u87's for those curious-
5/2/2019 Excellent $2,853.12 4/29/2019 Excellent $2,200 4/29/2019 Very Good $2,900 4/23/2019 Excellent $7,000 4/23/2019 Excellent $4,275 4/16/2019 Good $2,395 4/11/2019 Excellent $2,350 4/10/2019 Excellent $2,860 4/7/2019 Good $2,500 4/5/2019 Very Good $2,100
Prices exclude shipping and tax/VAT/GST.
* 7k though damn. Might be for a pair is my guess, or perhaps mis-categorized/black badge who knows
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Post by Bender on May 4, 2019 17:09:52 GMT -6
but what are your thoughts when it comes to tone & asking price for a 70's u87 with a "new" capsule. If it's a Neumann capsule, I think I'd be far more confident in taking a risk on one with a new capsule vs one with an original capsule with ~50 years of unquantifiable wear and tear. I'd certainly agree, but then doesn't that mean I'd basically be getting a 87ai then? I know the 87's have gone through revisions, but according the klaus and more experienced ears than I when it comes to the capsule, the difference is there vs a modern capsule. In that corntastic video from earlier the shootouts were practically useless since they're different performances....but I digress.
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Post by m03 on May 4, 2019 17:41:00 GMT -6
I'd certainly agree, but then doesn't that mean I'd basically be getting a 87ai then? The capsule designs are different and are not drop-in compatible between the U87 and U87Ai, from what I recall. The original U87 uses the K87 and the U87Ai uses a K67/K870. Nevermind the circuits and head assembly pinouts both being different. I know the 87's have gone through revisions, but according the klaus and more experienced ears than I when it comes to the capsule, the difference is there vs a modern capsule. Maybe, but I wonder how many vintage U87s you'd have to buy before you find one that's both in excellent condition and an objectively better performer than a new production replacement capsule.
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Post by drbill on May 4, 2019 17:45:25 GMT -6
Hmmmmm...doesn't seem that bad. IIRC, they were going for between 2200-2500 close to 20 years ago. Maybe they will be the next big megahigh price jump for vintage Neumann's.....
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Post by chessparov on May 4, 2019 20:10:04 GMT -6
Uh oh, I think you're right. Same for KH U87's IMHO. Chris
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Post by johneppstein on May 4, 2019 21:28:09 GMT -6
but what are your thoughts when it comes to tone & asking price for a 70's u87 with a "new" capsule. If it's a Neumann capsule, I think I'd be far more confident in taking a risk on one with a new capsule vs one with an original capsule with ~50 years of unquantifiable wear and tear. I wouldn't.
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Post by johneppstein on May 4, 2019 21:42:49 GMT -6
Neumann was taken over by Sennheiser in 1991. I'd consider any pre-Sennheiser Neumann to be "vintage", more or less.The screwing around with the 87 was largely after that point, at least as far a the quality issues are concerned.That's not to say that the "vintage" Ais are in the same class as the As - there were differences other than the lack of battery, but Sennheiser did compromise quality control after their takeover and did make modifications to ther mic to make it more "cost effective" to produce (at the same time as raising the list price.)
I have a mid '80s Ai (bought from the Fantasy Records remote truck) that is a great mic and better than the new ones.
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Post by dreamsambas on May 5, 2019 11:36:43 GMT -6
I'm bumping this thread because I'm in the market/itching for a 70's u87.. anyone know someone retiring/wanting to part with their neumann? I have been thinking about selling one of my vintage U87’s. Will dm you the details.
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Post by m03 on May 5, 2019 11:46:15 GMT -6
Neumann was taken over by Sennheiser in 1991. I'd consider any pre-Sennheiser Neumann to be "vintage", more or less.The screwing around with the 87 was largely after that point, at least as far a the quality issues are concerned.
Unverifiable and potentially dubious statements about past superior QC are rendered mostly irrelevant in the face of decades of wear and tear, IMHO.
There are exceptions though...if you happen be in the enviable position to be able to afford to pitch ~$15,000 to buy a half-dozen vintage U87s to find the best/most-consistent one among them, then maybe that makes more sense. But I have a feeling that most members here can't do that and/or don't have the time.
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Post by delcampo on May 5, 2019 12:10:30 GMT -6
As a fwiw, Just bought a refurbished (60's something) 87 from Tom Onofrio. New capsule up to factory spec. I just wasn't up for the role of the dice of buying one used with what I was seeing out there. Tom is a straight shooter and glad to have done so. The other option, as I see it, would be to buy a good deal used one (ai or otherwise) if you wanted to send it to Klaus for his thing. It's a pricey route but many love the sound of his. I personally went with the opportunity to get one from Tom as he had a refurbed one for sale. I'd be glad to hear one of Klaus's some day and they do retain their "Klaus mod" value. Yet, having a stock up to Tom spec one would arguably have it's own resale appeal. Resale becomes a thing when you're getting older like some of us and you consider the what ifs & family stuff etc.
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Post by johneppstein on May 5, 2019 12:45:22 GMT -6
Neumann was taken over by Sennheiser in 1991. I'd consider any pre-Sennheiser Neumann to be "vintage", more or less.The screwing around with the 87 was largely after that point, at least as far a the quality issues are concerned.
Unverifiable and potentially dubious statements about past superior QC are rendered mostly irrelevant in the face of decades of wear and tear, IMHO.
There are exceptions though...if you happen be in the enviable position to be able to afford to pitch ~$15,000 to buy a half-dozen vintage U87s to find the best/most-consistent one among them, then maybe that makes more sense. But I have a feeling that most members here can't do that and/or don't have the time.
I had mine checked by Neumann before I bought it. It got a clean bill of health, capsule perfect, needed one switch serviced.
Sounds better than most or all of the new ones I've encountered - I don't care for the way the presence peak sounds on the new ones I've heard.
Neumann makes no secret of the fact that they've tweaked the design several times since the takeover.
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Post by Ward on May 5, 2019 17:57:18 GMT -6
The vintage U87's are worth so much today... I'd be tempted to score a nice used U89 instead, as an alternative choice, for around $1600. Chris U89s are fantastic microphones and don't get anywhere near the love they deserve. They are easily 10x as good as most U87 clones, and better than 87AIs, better than many U87s. Current favorite microphone on Sopranos, Tenors, as well ass tom-tom drums.
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Post by chessparov on May 5, 2019 18:40:53 GMT -6
The couple of times I've tried a U89, I was very impressed with their warmth n' detail. Chris
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Post by Vincent R. on May 5, 2019 19:07:24 GMT -6
I’m curious about the U89, particularly as I have both a TLM170 and a U87ai. So I’m curious how it would sound in that mix. I have the TLM67 circuit too. I actually like it. It’s not a U67, but It’s really nice on my voice. I found it a little boxy on Emily’s voice. I like Emily on the U87ai, although I never quite love the brightness of the U87ai. Works better with a Tube preamp to warm it up. I’ve never had a vintage U87 in here, but I’d be curious about that as well.
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Post by johneppstein on May 5, 2019 20:18:24 GMT -6
Neumann was taken over by Sennheiser in 1991. I'd consider any pre-Sennheiser Neumann to be "vintage",but Sennheiser did compromise quality control after their takeover and did make modifications to ther mic to make it more "cost effective" to produce (at the same time as raising the list price.) Some internet myth and bull are still running strong unfortunately.!!! Nolt quite sure what youi meant by that, but what I said about the U87 series is definitely true. I don't have the reference handy (should have bookmarked but neglected to) but there is a published list somewhere of the various revisions made to the U87 over the years. Plus, when AES still had their convenions in SF I spent a considerable amouint of time discussing the issue of why they don't make accurate versions of some of the classic mics with some of the factory reps. They came right out and told me to my face that building some things the old way was not considered "cost effective" by management.
The early Ai that I have isn't quite as nice as one of the original "A" versions with the battery compartment, but it's definitely better that at least the majority of current production.
It's not a myth.
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Post by johneppstein on May 5, 2019 20:23:01 GMT -6
I’m curious about the U89, particularly as I have both a TLM170 and a U87ai. So I’m curious how it would sound in that mix. I have the TLM67 circuit too. I actually like it. It’s not a U67, but It’s really nice on my voice. I found it a little boxy on Emily’s voice. I like Emily on the U87ai, although I never quite love the brightness of the U87ai. Works better with a Tube preamp to warm it up. I’ve never had a vintage U87 in here, but I’d be curious about that as well. That nasty brightnes in the major drawback of the modern, post-sennheiser U87Ai.
Incidentally, for those who are interested, in Neumann-speak an "A" suffix incidictes 48 volt phantom power and an "i" indicates an XLR connection, rather than some variant of Teuchel or DIN.
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Post by drbill on May 5, 2019 22:35:50 GMT -6
Not the list John eluded to, but definitely lays things out for the 67, 87, 87A, 87AI, and 89. All of which are interrelated to some degree or another. www.coutant.org/u87ai/
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Post by Bender on May 9, 2019 17:23:21 GMT -6
Does anyone have some info on cameronlabs modded u87's? I reached out the son that posted on here ages ago but haven't gotten back a reply. I'm come across a 70's u87 that was modded by Dave in the late 80's early 90s....but I can't find any info on what this "mod" is & does,or if it's reversible as it's not the tube mod that usually comes up when seraching- pcb in in tact and was told by the seller that all he knows is the mod changed component values &/or orders.
On the fence about it, as I'm looking the that Classic tried and true sound that responds to eq as it should, and with dave having been gone for years I'm not sure what position I'll be in when &/or if things go awry and need a tuneup etc.... original capsule however, and has been cleaned and serviced so that's always a plus- Any help from you nashville guys who may be in the know would be great.
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