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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 7, 2022 19:38:20 GMT -6
I’m considering a set of 8 tube traps for recording. My control room is my recording room - and it’s a foley booth from the 80s I think, but the room is CRAMMED with my equipment, and some non music related storage - metal chairs, metal table/ drawer/ furniture, it’s just my circumstance in this particular place so I can’t take that stuff out. So sound is bouncing off of a lot of things actually and I think there are quite a few reflections hitting my recordings from the spot where I record because of all this stuff surrounding me. My stems often sound bloomy in the lows and low mids - lots of resonating there. Most it’s vocals and acoustic guitar that I’m tracking.
But if I’m wrong and it’s fine as is - would there be such a thing as having too much absorption in a recording environment? Could that be a bad thing for vocal recording in particular? Thanks guys.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 22:44:16 GMT -6
Yep, 100%.. My old boxy room contained a bunch of GIK broadband and bass traps, it needed to be this way because the room was so small any reflective surface would cause a slap echo. Ultimately the room sounded dead and that reflected in the recording, everything was dark and muddy.
On the opposite side I was testing out some new equipment with the MD441-U in my kitchen, it's sparse in terms of stuff and about 26 foot long, 14 foot wide with 8 foot ceilings. Now I'm not sure where this whole concept of dynamic mic's automatically removing room noise comes from? A hyper cardioid will definitely pick up a lot of reflections from the back and cardioids will still pick up stuff from the sides. Sure they're not quite as sensitive as a condenser but for the first time in years I got a swift reminder of how bad any "studio" mic is when confronted with poor acoustics.
My new room is a mix of all in one absorber, diffusors and bass traps.. I've tried to keep it as spartan as possible but that's not going too well TBH..
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Post by plinker on Feb 7, 2022 23:25:20 GMT -6
That’s why there’s artificial reverb. Better a dead room than a bad room.
I recommend laying Producer’s Choice acoustic blankets over all the crap in the room that you believe is causing the problems. when you are recording. I do that and it fixes things quickly. They are cheap, portable, and store easily when not in use.
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Post by jmoose on Feb 7, 2022 23:53:27 GMT -6
I’m considering a set of 8 tube traps for recording. My control room is my recording room - and it’s a foley booth from the 80s I think, but the room is CRAMMED with my equipment, and some non music related storage - metal chairs, ~~~ My stems often sound bloomy in the lows and low mids - lots of resonating there. Most it’s vocals and acoustic guitar that I’m tracking. But if I’m wrong and it’s fine as is - would there be such a thing as having too much absorption in a recording environment? Could that be a bad thing for vocal recording in particular? Thanks guys. Yes absolutely there can be too much trapping & absorption. And without more details of the room... pictures, layout etc you might already be at that point? If things aren't quite balanced.... lows & low mids are resonating it's usually because the top end has been sucked out of the space. Which if the room was designed for Foley work would seem about right. Foley requires a dead inert space... music recording? Not so much. What problem are you trying to solve? Maybe a better fix is to figure how & where to add diffusion & put some energy back into the space? |
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 8, 2022 0:17:25 GMT -6
I’m considering a set of 8 tube traps for recording. My control room is my recording room - and it’s a foley booth from the 80s I think, but the room is CRAMMED with my equipment, and some non music related storage - metal chairs, ~~~ My stems often sound bloomy in the lows and low mids - lots of resonating there. Most it’s vocals and acoustic guitar that I’m tracking. But if I’m wrong and it’s fine as is - would there be such a thing as having too much absorption in a recording environment? Could that be a bad thing for vocal recording in particular? Thanks guys. Yes absolutely there can be too much trapping & absorption. And without more details of the room... pictures, layout etc you might already be at that point? If things aren't quite balanced.... lows & low mids are resonating it's usually because the top end has been sucked out of the space. Which if the room was designed for Foley work would seem about right. Foley requires a dead inert space... music recording? Not so much. What problem are you trying to solve? Maybe a better fix is to figure how & where to add diffusion & put some energy back into the space? Yeah I get your point. Problem is I think it would be difficult to get a useable room sound in this particular room - its a rectangle about 17 feet long and 11 feet wide and crammed with stuff. So I was thinking maybe leaning out the lows low-mids with treatment in recording areas might balance it out with the highs that are probably rather dull as you pointed out rather than trying to get a good room sound out of a very crowded small room.
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Post by jmoose on Feb 8, 2022 17:10:56 GMT -6
Yeah I get your point. Problem is I think it would be difficult to get a useable room sound in this particular room - its a rectangle about 17 feet long and 11 feet wide and crammed with stuff. So I was thinking maybe leaning out the lows low-mids with treatment in recording areas might balance it out with the highs that are probably rather dull as you pointed out rather than trying to get a good room sound out of a very crowded small room.
When you say "live" do you really mean "neutral" ? What we're probably aiming for most times w/ tracking & mixing is a neutral space... like someone's living room but free of flutter echos & other uglies. Not necessarily the bombastic "live drum" room which, yeah... it'd be impossible to turn a foley space into that. But neutral? Sure. I doubt the tube traps are going to do anything for you. Foley spaces are already dead and overly controlled and basic acoustic knowledge says tube traps would only add more of that. If its a properly built booth there's probably at least a foot, maybe 2 feet of trapping behind the walls & ceiling. If the lows & mids are overtaking and mic'd sources aren't sounding natural, probably a better solution... and certainly easier & less expensive thing to test would be bring in some plywood sheets and yes... add hard reflective surfaces to the room to reflect instead of absorb HF energy. If at all possible I'd try to borrow tube traps and see if they do what you think before making that investmet. It'd kinda suck to drop a few grand and wind up saying... that didn't work now what? |
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Post by yewtreemagic on Feb 8, 2022 17:26:56 GMT -6
If at all possible I'd try to borrow tube traps and see if they do what you think before making that investmet. It'd kinda suck to drop a few grand and wind up saying... that didn't work now what? In my experience, tube traps like the ASC ones are great for mobile setups in a row (the 'Attack Wall') or vocal duties in a circle formation, since you can move them about easily, as well as rotating their reflective sides inwards (towards your mics) to get more liveliness or outwards for maximum absorption. However, I suspect six is an absolute minimum for vocal duties, and double that would probably be more appropriate, spread out for regular mobile recording work, so I totally agree that a loan or short term hire is safest. It's also worth bearing in mind that in free space the ASC Studio Traps also only absorb down to about 250Hz, although this can drop to around 100Hz when placed in a corner location. |
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 8, 2022 18:11:16 GMT -6
Yeah I get your point. Problem is I think it would be difficult to get a useable room sound in this particular room - its a rectangle about 17 feet long and 11 feet wide and crammed with stuff. So I was thinking maybe leaning out the lows low-mids with treatment in recording areas might balance it out with the highs that are probably rather dull as you pointed out rather than trying to get a good room sound out of a very crowded small room.
When you say "live" do you really mean "neutral" ? What we're probably aiming for most times w/ tracking & mixing is a neutral space... like someone's living room but free of flutter echos & other uglies. Not necessarily the bombastic "live drum" room which, yeah... it'd be impossible to turn a foley space into that. But neutral? Sure. I doubt the tube traps are going to do anything for you. Foley spaces are already dead and overly controlled and basic acoustic knowledge says tube traps would only add more of that. If its a properly built booth there's probably at least a foot, maybe 2 feet of trapping behind the walls & ceiling. If the lows & mids are overtaking and mic'd sources aren't sounding natural, probably a better solution... and certainly easier & less expensive thing to test would be bring in some plywood sheets and yes... add hard reflective surfaces to the room to reflect instead of absorb HF energy. If at all possible I'd try to borrow tube traps and see if they do what you think before making that investmet. It'd kinda suck to drop a few grand and wind up saying... that didn't work now what? I appreciate this advice jmoose. What you’re saying makes sense. I will try and experiment with some reflectors. I did already buy materials for DIY tube traps, the schematic has a diffusion side built in to one side so I hope I can get some use that out of that side maybe? One side has a plastic film covering so that’s supposed to reflect HF. Perhaps I can still accomplish some of what you’re describing by using that side of the trap. I’ll definitely purchase some plywood and see how that changes things and some surfaces specifically for reflection. The reason I think I’m being stubborn with wanting low mid low reduction is also that my tracks aren’t too dull on the HF, I actually don’t need to add very much brightness - my vocals sound best when the brightness is left alone and the lows and low mids are treated using compression/plug-ins etc, so that’s why I’m a little afraid of making things more reflective, but you are more experienced than I, and I want to get the problem solved above all else, so I’m going to try some reflectors for sure. I hope the DIY traps I build aren’t completely useless after all in this room but if they are - ce la vie. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 8, 2022 18:44:41 GMT -6
Instead of guessing why not buy an inexpensive calibrated mike and measure? REW is sharewhare, and not hard to get your head around with a little guidance, get you rt60 below 300 ms or so and your eq relatively flat and trust your ears and hit record.
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 8, 2022 21:30:37 GMT -6
Instead of guessing why not buy an inexpensive calibrated mike and measure? REW is sharewhare, and not hard to get your head around with a little guidance, get you rt60 below 300 ms or so and your eq relatively flat and trust your ears and hit record. Yeah kcatt It's probably time to try something like that. Guessing wastes so much time. Which mic would you recommend? |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 8, 2022 21:50:35 GMT -6
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Post by yotonic on Feb 8, 2022 22:20:03 GMT -6
If you are recording yourself then use your ears. Find the place in the room that you like best. Start with absorption behind you first. Experiment it doesn't cost you anything.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 9, 2022 7:31:16 GMT -6
I dunno, i mixed some home recordings for a client last year, he had to record his vocals in his car in the garage in the middle of the night to not bother his family, they came out fine. I’m more in the camp you can work with almost anything. The sound of a bunch of imperfect rooms is the signature sound of a lot of places.
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Post by octalsocket on Feb 9, 2022 7:45:40 GMT -6
I dunno, i mixed some home recordings for a client last year, he had to record his vocals in his car in the garage in the middle of the night to not bother his family, they came out fine. I’m more in the camp you can work with almost anything. The sound of a bunch of imperfect rooms is the signature sound of a lot of places. Out of curiosity, what mic(s) did he use? |
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Post by svart on Feb 9, 2022 7:59:11 GMT -6
Nope.
I've mixed handfuls of vocals recorded in all kinds of places, bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchens, and the occasional (but more rare by the day) real studio.
I've been able to pull a lot of rabbits from hats with some very focused processing but by far the worst tracks to try to mix are the ones where the person who tracked it says that they wanted "the room tone" or "room ambience" or "live sound" or some such.
That's almost always code for ZERO acoustic treatment and unmanageable levels of comb filtering or lawnmowers/TV/mom washing dishes in the background.
Give me a 100% dead track every day of the week and I'll add some synthetic room to it and you'll never know the difference.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 9, 2022 12:31:46 GMT -6
I dunno, i mixed some home recordings for a client last year, he had to record his vocals in his car in the garage in the middle of the night to not bother his family, they came out fine. I’m more in the camp you can work with almost anything. The sound of a bunch of imperfect rooms is the signature sound of a lot of places. Out of curiosity, what mic(s) did he use? I assume some $79 guitar center condenser |
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Post by tkaitkai on Feb 9, 2022 12:58:30 GMT -6
IME, it’s not so much about having too much absorption as it is how you use it. Even with my tube traps, if I place them super close together and create a tiny, claustrophobic “booth,” it’ll come out sounding dull and bloated.
On the other hand, when spaced properly with enough room to breathe, you can keep adding more to various spots in the room and they kill the echo/reverb/small room tone without introducing mud or losing clarity.
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Post by jmoose on Feb 9, 2022 15:12:23 GMT -6
Instead of guessing why not buy an inexpensive calibrated mike and measure? REW is sharewhare, and not hard to get your head around with a little guidance, get you rt60 below 300 ms or so and your eq relatively flat and trust your ears and hit record. Yeah kcatt It's probably time to try something like that. Guessing wastes so much time. Which mic would you recommend? Pretty much any omni condenser should be ok? I think REW has a calibration/input choice for the mic? I haven't played with it that much... I use an old version of Smaart when needed. Anyway. Most omni measurement mics are using the Panasonic capsule which years ago were about $5 each. If you can solder & want to go cheap look up plans for the "stapes omni" which used those capsules in an XLR boot. Otherwise any decent $99-150 measurement mic is good. I've seen people recommend the $50 behringer but I haven't used it. Or you could go upscale... One cool thing about omnis... if you get a "good" one it can be used for a lot of things besides measurement. Have a set of the Audix/MBHO which can be used for that... or drum overheads/room... acoustic guitars... even really, really loud guitar cabs. Love 'em there. Sounds just like the amp! And FWIW its really common to rip some low mids out of a close miked vocal. Don't care what kinda fancy pants mic someone used... almost always needs a little dip in the 200-500Hz region to clear crud. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2022 19:03:48 GMT -6
I dunno, i mixed some home recordings for a client last year, he had to record his vocals in his car in the garage in the middle of the night to not bother his family, they came out fine. I’m more in the camp you can work with almost anything. The sound of a bunch of imperfect rooms is the signature sound of a lot of places. There are entire genres of music done by screaming into an sm57 (or ev635a if you’re lucky) with the sock on it in the control room or any room |
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 9, 2022 21:10:13 GMT -6
So I can use REW with the sonarworks mic for instance, right? No need to buy the sonarworks software for 300$ I think? |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 9, 2022 21:25:14 GMT -6
Yes, if you have the calibration file, you can link it to your REW input channel for use when measuring.
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Post by christopher on Feb 9, 2022 21:44:12 GMT -6
In a dead room at least you can capture the source without a bunch of garbage, so you are probably “ok”. Actually you can have a lot of fun. Try some ambient room mics. It’s fun to aim mics at surfaces, make something unique. Have a fav compressor? Put a mic on its faceplate see what happens. Always figure mono will suck so capture an additional stereo pair. Bringing in planks of wood to reflect off of can help. Honestly it’s super fun when it works. When it doesn’t, oh well. An ORTF or coincident pair near the source will typically give a great life. Especially with a wood or tile reflector, ime.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Feb 10, 2022 10:00:54 GMT -6
Nope. I've mixed handfuls of vocals recorded in all kinds of places, bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchens, and the occasional (but more rare by the day) real studio. I've been able to pull a lot of rabbits from hats with some very focused processing but by far the worst tracks to try to mix are the ones where the person who tracked it says that they wanted "the room tone" or "room ambience" or "live sound" or some such. That's almost always code for ZERO acoustic treatment and unmanageable levels of comb filtering or lawnmowers/TV/mom washing dishes in the background. Give me a 100% dead track every day of the week and I'll add some synthetic room to it and you'll never know the difference. The two biggest challenges I'm given to mix are tracks where someone wanted the vibe of their (not pro studio, or ever treated setups like most of us have here), and people who record basics to 4 or 8 track tape and are only able to give me the stereo mix. An even less enjoyable great is a combination of the two! |
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Post by svart on Feb 10, 2022 10:12:21 GMT -6
Nope. I've mixed handfuls of vocals recorded in all kinds of places, bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchens, and the occasional (but more rare by the day) real studio. I've been able to pull a lot of rabbits from hats with some very focused processing but by far the worst tracks to try to mix are the ones where the person who tracked it says that they wanted "the room tone" or "room ambience" or "live sound" or some such. That's almost always code for ZERO acoustic treatment and unmanageable levels of comb filtering or lawnmowers/TV/mom washing dishes in the background. Give me a 100% dead track every day of the week and I'll add some synthetic room to it and you'll never know the difference. The two biggest challenges I'm given to mix are tracks where someone wanted the vibe of their (not pro studio, or ever treated setups like most of us have here), and people who record basics to 4 or 8 track tape and are only able to give me the stereo mix. An even less enjoyable great is a combination of the two! I just don't even accept a stereo mix anymore. Give me the tracks or give me nothing! Edit: I had a singer/songwriter that would frequently send me a stereo track of all instruments together and then a vocal track. When I edited the vocals, tuned them, EQ'd them and combined with the stereo instrumental track and sent them back the artist sent back an email asking why the instrumental track "wasn't mixed".. I had to explain that I can't un-mix the instruments from the stereo track, edit/EQ/etc and then put it back together. I then got an email that the other mix engineer they work with could do it. Instead of arguing, I just told them that I don't do that kind of work, I specialize in other types of work. I got another email back: "Oh ok I didn't know that!" LOL, I got more vocal editing work from this person for another year or so before they stopped contacting me. |
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Post by Ward on Feb 10, 2022 11:19:08 GMT -6
I had to explain that I can't un-mix the instruments from the stereo track, edit/EQ/etc and then put it back together. I then got an email that the other mix engineer they work with could do it. Instead of arguing, I just told them that I don't do that kind of work, I specialize in other types of work. I got another email back: "Oh ok I didn't know that!" LOL, I got more vocal editing work from this person for another year or so before they stopped contacting me. I had better results with a similar situation. I do a lot of backing vocals on other people's records outside of full production work, and yes, vocal editing work as you mentioned. I received a humble question from one client asking "If I could unmix" the backing track as the previous mixer was paid but still holding everything hostage, but I had to decline citing that I don't have the software (Omichron I think) to do that and wasn't interested in deviating from my normal work. I'm still doing all his backing vocals, editing and doubling 4 years later. I guess some people can accept 'no' for an answer. As to the original question . . . I dislike dead recording. So there's such a thing as too much absorption. Diffusion and a little bit of space is better anyhow. IMHO |
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