|
Post by bossanova on Feb 10, 2022 12:07:53 GMT -6
IME, it’s not so much about having too much absorption as it is how you use it. Even with my tube traps, if I place them super close together and create a tiny, claustrophobic “booth,” it’ll come out sounding dull and bloated. On the other hand, when spaced properly with enough room to breathe, you can keep adding more to various spots in the room and they kill the echo/reverb/small room tone without introducing mud or losing clarity. I have also experienced this: making a tight gobo booth, including ceiling, that kills all the reflections before they can make it out into the room, and finding the results dull and bloated even though they’re completely dry. It taught me that the sound of my voice in a given space (in this case, oddly muffled and boomy) is what the mic will “hear” during recording. Getting to hear myself in a pro room was huge, because it sounded dry and clear at the same time. It was that, “Ah ha, that’s how they do it” moment.
|
|
|
Post by plinker on Feb 10, 2022 15:19:44 GMT -6
Just curious: did the vocals sound proper once you added reverb to them?
|
|
|
Post by bossanova on Feb 10, 2022 17:14:09 GMT -6
Just curious: did the vocals sound proper once you added reverb to them? Yes and no. Yes in the sense that it did add a sense of space back into them, but No in the sense that the frequency response was still completely whacked/bloated in the low end and a required an excessive amount of EQ to even it out.
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Feb 10, 2022 18:32:43 GMT -6
As to the original question . . . I dislike dead recording. So there's such a thing as too much absorption. Diffusion and a little bit of space is better anyhow. IMHO Same. I really dispise vocal booths & rarely use 'em. Only if there isn't another option. Seems like every studio on the planet either by design or accident winds up with an odd little space... A kinda glorified closet that's so small 'ya gotta go outside to change your mind. Then cover the walls with foam or panels and stick a singer in there. Hey check out our vocal booth its rad! It always sucks. Doesn't sound good and most singers tend to hate being shoved in there for long hours. Shoving a guitar amp into a padded cell is one thing. Vocals? Percussion? Horn players? Entirely another.
|
|
|
Post by OtisGreying on Feb 10, 2022 22:38:58 GMT -6
Personally I record around my listening position - if I get a flat response around the listening position that would double as a good neutral spot to record as well, no?
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 10, 2022 23:34:46 GMT -6
I've noticed when comparing mics or listening to a shootout when they're completely flat, can make a $20,000 U47 sound dull and no better than a $400 mic. Just a little bit of reverb, and all of a sudden the mics true qualities are evident. I have no idea why, but it's true.
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Feb 11, 2022 5:24:31 GMT -6
Personally I record around my listening position - if I get a flat response around the listening position that would double as a good neutral spot to record as well, no? Same here…doesn’t really work when I’m recording someone besides myself, but 90% of the time I do vocals on a (gasp) sm7b….so positioning isn’t a huge issue in my room.
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Feb 11, 2022 15:43:17 GMT -6
I've noticed when comparing mics or listening to a shootout when they're completely flat, can make a $20,000 U47 sound dull and no better than a $400 mic. Just a little bit of reverb, and all of a sudden the mics true qualities are evident. I have no idea why, but it's true. I had a client recut a bunch of vocals because I had left SM7 in the track notes (from basics) even though we used an AEA for keepers. They said it sounded too “broadcast” but my mistake was actually that I hadn’t committed the light verb, compression, and top end lift I was monitoring too tape. They loved the sound in studio, the problems started when they got them home to some attic space or whatever. Live and learn.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Feb 11, 2022 15:54:14 GMT -6
Personally I record around my listening position - if I get a flat response around the listening position that would double as a good neutral spot to record as well, no? Same here…doesn’t really work when I’m recording someone besides myself, but 90% of the time I do vocals on a (gasp) sm7b….so positioning isn’t a huge issue in my room. oh god, please don't tell Ward...
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 11, 2022 19:06:12 GMT -6
As to the original question . . . I dislike dead recording. So there's such a thing as too much absorption. Diffusion and a little bit of space is better anyhow. IMHO Same. I really dispise vocal booths & rarely use 'em. Only if there isn't another option. Seems like every studio on the planet either by design or accident winds up with an odd little space... A kinda glorified closet that's so small 'ya gotta go outside to change your mind. Then cover the walls with foam or panels and stick a singer in there. Hey check out our vocal booth its rad! It always sucks. Doesn't sound good and most singers tend to hate being shoved in there for long hours. Shoving a guitar amp into a padded cell is one thing. Vocals? Percussion? Horn players? Entirely another. But some singers NEED a padded cell. Chris
|
|
|
Post by plinker on Feb 11, 2022 20:11:50 GMT -6
…he says as I try to find the key to my own straight jacket.
|
|
|
Post by bossanova on Feb 11, 2022 20:41:00 GMT -6
I've noticed when comparing mics or listening to a shootout when they're completely flat, can make a $20,000 U47 sound dull and no better than a $400 mic. Just a little bit of reverb, and all of a sudden the mics true qualities are evident. I have no idea why, but it's true. I had a client recut a bunch of vocals because I had left SM7 in the track notes (from basics) even though we used an AEA for keepers. They said it sounded too “broadcast” but my mistake was actually that I hadn’t committed the light verb, compression, and top end lift I was monitoring too tape. They loved the sound in studio, the problems started when they got them home to some attic space or whatever. Live and learn. I should have added to my “gobo booth” + reverb reply: reverb does do wonders with a well recorded SM7B vocal, mostly because the SM7 doesn’t need the tight gobos.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 11, 2022 23:24:46 GMT -6
Personally I record around my listening position - if I get a flat response around the listening position that would double as a good neutral spot to record as well, no? Same here…doesn’t really work when I’m recording someone besides myself, but 90% of the time I do vocals on a (gasp) sm7b….so positioning isn’t a huge issue in my room. I guess a SM7 is pretty tough then Rather than singing right "on" it... How about singing "into" it? (You'll get better balance) Chris
|
|
|
Post by christophert on Feb 12, 2022 3:15:19 GMT -6
One can always put a speaker in an OK sounding room, put the vocal through it and re record it to get a sound of space around the voice. I had a friend who recorded a whole album (all instruments) in his clothes closet, with his clothes - turned out sounding great once mixed Whatever it takes.
|
|
|
Post by nomatic on Feb 12, 2022 7:08:32 GMT -6
I have had good results from dead vocal rooms...... definitely better than the bathroom in most cases!
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Feb 12, 2022 9:29:06 GMT -6
Same here…doesn’t really work when I’m recording someone besides myself, but 90% of the time I do vocals on a (gasp) sm7b….so positioning isn’t a huge issue in my room. I guess a SM7 is pretty tough then Rather than singing right "on" it... How about singing "into" it? (You'll get better balance) Chris That’s why my vocals alway come out weird!!! Thanks!!!
|
|
|
Post by plinker on Feb 12, 2022 10:29:17 GMT -6
Natural reverberation is massively tilted toward the high frequencies; the low-mids and lows don't reflect much in a good live room. So, when you record in a dead space, those reflected mid-high and high frequencies aren't captured, and the track sounds muddy and weird as a result. When you add artificial reverb, it restores the frequency balance to the "natural" state. This assumes, of course, that you filter/reduce the low-mid and low frequencies from the reverb -- those wouldn't have reflected back into the mic to the same degree as the mid-highs and highs in a good live room. Plus, you can completely control the frequency response of the reverberation.
Sorry for the pedantic-ness: but that's why I just find it easier to go dead. If I had a great room, things would be different ;-}
|
|
|
Post by ml on Feb 12, 2022 15:29:43 GMT -6
So what's the consensus on recording vocals with compression in a dead / bloated room? Wouldn't that just add more bloat and mud?
|
|
|
Post by bossanova on Feb 12, 2022 16:59:30 GMT -6
So what's the consensus on recording vocals with compression in a dead / bloated room? Wouldn't that just add more bloat and mud? I think it hinges on the difference between “bloated” and “dead”. If you mainly have high and mid frequency absorbers and the sound in the room/booth is muffled and bottom heavy, the compression will certainly bring that up. If there’s sufficient space and low end absorption, the results might not sparkle but they should sound comparatively better when compressed.
|
|
|
Post by plinker on Feb 12, 2022 18:13:33 GMT -6
So what's the consensus on recording vocals with compression in a dead / bloated room? Wouldn't that just add more bloat and mud? Side Chain access to the compressor, as I’ve recently been reminded
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Feb 12, 2022 18:20:35 GMT -6
This topic is kind of weird to me.. some of the best vocals I’ve gotten were in an overly treated control room. Top to bottom covered in foam, it was much better than the booth we had. I did have to fake early reflections, that was the trick. I should have used ambient mics? Do I high pass vocals? Extremely! I’ll take away the whole low end below 400Hz often, then judiciously bring it back. That’s kind of standard starting point for me in any space.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
|
Post by ericn on Feb 12, 2022 22:47:52 GMT -6
So much of modern vocal both design is based on classic iso design but everyone forgets that the classic iso booths had these giant reflective windows.
|
|
|
Post by ml on Feb 13, 2022 7:17:50 GMT -6
So what's the consensus on recording vocals with compression in a dead / bloated room? Wouldn't that just add more bloat and mud? I think it hinges on the difference between “bloated” and “dead”. If you mainly have high and mid frequency absorbers and the sound in the room/booth is muffled and bottom heavy, the compression will certainly bring that up. If there’s sufficient space and low end absorption, the results might not sparkle but they should sound comparatively better when compressed. Yea that makes sense. My room is heavily treated and I do get low mid buildup. I talked to an audio consultant and he recommended even more bass trapping between the floor and walls, thicker wall panels (4 - 6”) and scatter plates. But, will I ever find the time to build more panels? that’s the question haha!
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Feb 13, 2022 9:58:23 GMT -6
Personally I record around my listening position - if I get a flat response around the listening position that would double as a good neutral spot to record as well, no? Same here…doesn’t really work when I’m recording someone besides myself, but 90% of the time I do vocals on a (gasp) sm7b….so positioning isn’t a huge issue in my room. GASP! COUGH! WHEEZ! . . . <thud>
|
|
|
Post by nick8801 on Feb 13, 2022 10:48:11 GMT -6
Same here…doesn’t really work when I’m recording someone besides myself, but 90% of the time I do vocals on a (gasp) sm7b….so positioning isn’t a huge issue in my room. GASP! COUGH! WHEEZ! . . . <thud> Careful man, you’ll knock over the sm7
|
|