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Post by christophert on Dec 2, 2021 2:22:27 GMT -6
The way I look at it is, when I receive a project on Pro Tools, if I am using another platform then it would probably take me an hour or two to consolidate, export and rebuild the session to emulate the Pro Tools session. (what happened when I switched to Reaper) Add this time to hundreds of jobs throughout the year, then I am many thousands of $ ahead with ProTools.
If I use another platform and get a film job - there is a good chance I won't get any work when the post guys realize they need to export and re import everything multiple times to suit my chosen software.
I'm no fan of Avid and their extortion policies - but I also am realistic about being compatible with nearly all of the main studios and industries that require quick handling of software to share projects.
The amount of money I have given Avid over the last 20 years makes me feel sick. 3 HD rigs w extensive hardware, and again recently a HDX card + licence (but now not using their hardware makes me feel good) But then I think of how much income it has given me to be compatible, and the sickness dilutes (a little)
If I was just doing projects for the odd band, and my own music - then it would not matter / I could use my $69 Reaper license.
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Post by popmann on Dec 2, 2021 9:13:47 GMT -6
Post fader inserts should exist in a DAW. Dither. Limiting/clipping. Airwindows fix for summing. But, this isn't a Reaper (or LogicX which doesn't have them either) bashing thread. FYI -- I use post fader in Logic on occasion. It is possible. ?? Do you mean aux sends? We’re talking about post fader inserts. Like the plug in is put into the signal flow after the fader.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 2, 2021 21:34:23 GMT -6
So let me get this straight, as I have debated getting a Carbon interface and the attached Pro Tools Ultimate license. I would need to spend some $200+ a year to stay current with support? I could see spending a little to help them pay for the customer service and coders, but that's more than I spent on my current DAW one time. I spent $200 on Logic years ago and haven't spent a penny since with multiple updates. The main thing I wish it had, that PT has, is savable playlists that carry the custom bus naming and routing with the project. In Logic it's global, which is stupid. I've heard some people say they like Reaper because it's so deep that you can customize it to behave similar to other DAWs. They have created templates to make it work very similar to Pro Tools, so all their process is similar. ***And $12 a week for coffee? It only takes 6 minutes to brew on the machine at home. You can wait in the Starbucks line longer than that.*** Hahaha I think PT Ultimate is $500 + per year to stay current.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 2, 2021 21:36:25 GMT -6
FYI -- I use post fader in Logic on occasion. It is possible. ?? Do you mean aux sends? We’re talking about post fader inserts. Like the plug in is put into the signal flow after the fader. I is dumb. Can you explain? I know you can do this in Cubase, I assume it means you could put like - say a tape plug and then drive the fader into it?
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Post by popmann on Dec 2, 2021 21:59:02 GMT -6
Yes, you could do what you're suggesting-riding into a limiter isn't abnormal for a vocal(but see below). But, also dithering to direct outs...you've no doubt seen all the L1s all over CLA's sessions? Post fader--to optimize level for the DAC feeding the analog desk. Airwindows Console series uses it to band aid the summing. When I'm playing a VI, which spits out a 32bit float signal to the DAW(so all of them), I apply dither post fader to write 24bit to disk. For a single piano--little less difference than printing 16ch of Superior3 through various DSP.
Unlike the vocal example, the others can't effectively be handled by a bus. I mean you can just have a vocal bus with the limiter and ride the channel fader...and get what you're describing. The others require post fader inserts to work at all.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2021 9:49:09 GMT -6
Yes, you could do what you're suggesting-riding into a limiter isn't abnormal for a vocal(but see below). But, also dithering to direct outs...you've no doubt seen all the L1s all over CLA's sessions? Post fader--to optimize level for the DAC feeding the analog desk. Airwindows Console series uses it to band aid the summing. When I'm playing a VI, which spits out a 32bit float signal to the DAW(so all of them), I apply dither post fader to write 24bit to disk. For a single piano--little less difference than printing 16ch of Superior3 through various DSP. Unlike the vocal example, the others can't effectively be handled by a bus. I mean you can just have a vocal bus with the limiter and ride the channel fader...and get what you're describing. The others require post fader inserts to work at all. Apologies if I'm being silly here but when did dithering change from the mastering process? If you're adding excess noise at multiple locations generally you're just adding more noise. Modern converters run at near 24 bit quality (which is of course 144dB dynamic range) at that stage the noise from the digital converter is louder than the required level at which dither needs to be applied. CLA up until not that long ago was using old 80's Sony converters which would now be upstaged by a prosumer level audio interface. When we're changing everything back to 16bit for distribution sure, 24 bit+ does not require dither.
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Post by superwack on Dec 3, 2021 10:38:44 GMT -6
Yes, you could do what you're suggesting-riding into a limiter isn't abnormal for a vocal(but see below). But, also dithering to direct outs...you've no doubt seen all the L1s all over CLA's sessions? Post fader--to optimize level for the DAC feeding the analog desk. Airwindows Console series uses it to band aid the summing. When I'm playing a VI, which spits out a 32bit float signal to the DAW(so all of them), I apply dither post fader to write 24bit to disk. For a single piano--little less difference than printing 16ch of Superior3 through various DSP. Unlike the vocal example, the others can't effectively be handled by a bus. I mean you can just have a vocal bus with the limiter and ride the channel fader...and get what you're describing. The others require post fader inserts to work at all. Apologies if I'm being silly here but when did dithering change from the mastering process? If you're adding excess noise at multiple locations generally you're just adding more noise. Modern converters run at near 24 bit quality (which is of course 144dB dynamic range) at that stage the noise from the digital converter is louder than the required level at which dither needs to be applied. CLA up until not that long ago was using old 80's Sony converters which would now be upstaged by a prosumer level audio interface. When we're changing everything back to 16bit for distribution sure, 24 bit+ does not require dither. Theoretically any/every time you change bit depth you should apply dither. So if you are working ITB @ 32 bit and your converters are outputting 24 bit (Most are) you should apply dither to the channel(s) feeding the output(s) of your D/A
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Post by popmann on Dec 3, 2021 11:25:03 GMT -6
Yes, you could do what you're suggesting-riding into a limiter isn't abnormal for a vocal(but see below). But, also dithering to direct outs...you've no doubt seen all the L1s all over CLA's sessions? Post fader--to optimize level for the DAC feeding the analog desk. Airwindows Console series uses it to band aid the summing. When I'm playing a VI, which spits out a 32bit float signal to the DAW(so all of them), I apply dither post fader to write 24bit to disk. For a single piano--little less difference than printing 16ch of Superior3 through various DSP. Unlike the vocal example, the others can't effectively be handled by a bus. I mean you can just have a vocal bus with the limiter and ride the channel fader...and get what you're describing. The others require post fader inserts to work at all. Apologies if I'm being silly here but when did dithering change from the mastering process? If you're adding excess noise at multiple locations generally you're just adding more noise. Modern converters run at near 24 bit quality (which is of course 144dB dynamic range) at that stage the noise from the digital converter is louder than the required level at which dither needs to be applied. CLA up until not that long ago was using old 80's Sony converters which would now be upstaged by a prosumer level audio interface. When we're changing everything back to 16bit for distribution sure, 24 bit+ does not require dither. It's a very popular belief that dither it irrelevant until you have to do a huge reduction to 16bit. Which my understanding is... just wrong. Any audio DSP done in floating point requires dithering back to 24bit. How big of a difference does that make in the real world? Maybe not enough for you to care. I've blind tested printing a VI audio with and without. Airwindows (dev) guy made quite a long winded video about it some years ago and after he tested the theory, he now dithers the output of ALL his plug ins. He makes about 10 kinds of stand alone dither. If you want to know the geeky 'whys'--I'd direct you to his hour long geek ramblings on such.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2021 15:57:36 GMT -6
Apologies if I'm being silly here but when did dithering change from the mastering process? If you're adding excess noise at multiple locations generally you're just adding more noise. Modern converters run at near 24 bit quality (which is of course 144dB dynamic range) at that stage the noise from the digital converter is louder than the required level at which dither needs to be applied. CLA up until not that long ago was using old 80's Sony converters which would now be upstaged by a prosumer level audio interface. When we're changing everything back to 16bit for distribution sure, 24 bit+ does not require dither. It's a very popular belief that dither it irrelevant until you have to do a huge reduction to 16bit. Which my understanding is... just wrong. Any audio DSP done in floating point requires dithering back to 24bit. That's not quite correct and I was trying to avoid writing a small book on the subject but here goes. Quantisation errors happen as a result of truncation (due to word length reduction), if nothing is truncated then it won't cause an issue. Problem is nothing is perfect and even certain DAW's use different type of math for variable duties. For example if one was to use 32 bit floating point math which has the same bit depth as 24 then no truncation would happen and there's no need for dither. If one is converting from 32 bit fixed then the DAW would truncate causing quantisation errors, due to the tonality of quantisation errors it would be audible even at 24 bit if cranked loud enough. However dithering at certain stages is only applicable in specific circumstances, as this will take too long to go into depth I'll post an article link and extract a few important parts for general quotation: website: www.waves.com/audio-dithering-what-you-need-to-know>You don’t need to dither when going from 32-bit floating point to 24-bit (because 32-bit floating point doesn’t have a higher bit depth), but you do from 32-bit fixed point to any lower bit depth.
>Make sure that dithering is the last step in your processing chain. Never insert a processor after it in your DAW or audio editor.
>Try to avoid dithering twice, because the effect is to add more noise to your audio. That said, if you go down in bit depth twice during a project (which is somewhat unlikely unless you start at 32-bit fixed point), you should dither during each of those conversions.Then as stated we get to the ADC portion of this, I quoted maximum theoretical limits but in reality your general ADC will be around 22bit (or 123dB dynamic range) and it'll truncate. I'll again quote the important stuff: benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/12142585-word-length-reduction-of-digital-audio- There are numerous potential sources of noise within an A/D converter. These may include thermal noise, noise from a delta sigma modulation process, cross talk, clock feed-through, etc. None of these sources of noise are added intentionally, but in many cases these noise sources may be of a high enough level to allow truncation without the addition of a dither signal. For example, many 20-bit A/D converters have enough self-noise to allow their outputs to be truncated to 16-bits without ill effects. Similarly many 24-bit converters have enough self-noise to allow truncation to 20-bits.Issue is as the article states some converters are so quiet that you will be able to hear quantisation errors, this is actually a bigger issue for studio owners than the general market. Anyway, I'm getting off topic here and theoretical limits opened a can of worms so apologies there. Ultimately my point is unless you like the sound of noise dither at the end (circumstances applicable)..
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Post by reddirt on Dec 3, 2021 19:05:57 GMT -6
Here's a vid which will get your blood ramped again JK. The guy carries on a bit but his point supports yours quite forcefully. Cheers, Ross
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Post by popmann on Dec 3, 2021 19:56:21 GMT -6
As I stated, there are different camps on dither. Whether you want to take Harrison or Meridian engineers (not to mention Ohlsson or Chris from Airwindows) word over Waves. Benchmark is taking the stance very specific to the direct outs to a DAC. Not something I've tested--like I've said many times--I take a lot by the book. If someone I trust has looked into it and recommends I do that, what's the harm? None. Don't care to try to debunk that. I'm completely open to the idea that straight to DACs might not require it...
Suffice to say...there are uses for a post fader insert. Dither is ONE that REQUIRES it. Don't want to use that? Cool. There are others.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 4, 2021 15:06:47 GMT -6
Here's a vid which will get your blood ramped again JK. The guy carries on a bit but his point supports yours quite forcefully. Cheers, Ross Completely agree with everything he’s saying…except I have no problems with any plugs in Cubase, Logic or Luna. Only Pro Tools.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2021 16:57:25 GMT -6
As I stated, there are different camps on dither. Whether you want to take Harrison or Meridian engineers (not to mention Ohlsson or Chris from Airwindows) word over Waves. Benchmark is taking the stance very specific to the direct outs to a DAC. Not something I've tested--like I've said many times--I take a lot by the book. If someone I trust has looked into it and recommends I do that, what's the harm? None. Don't care to try to debunk that. I'm completely open to the idea that straight to DACs might not require it... Suffice to say...there are uses for a post fader insert. Dither is ONE that REQUIRES it. Don't want to use that? Cool. There are others. And Waves plugins are so hit or miss. It’s not like they’ve consistent in any way since the 90s There is no straight to DAC. It’s usually 0) 24 bit fixed files converter to 64 bit float and then 1) 64-bit floating point in the daw mixer 2) 64 bit float rounded to 32-bit float rounding going to 64 bit plugs (if Logic or Pro Tools with AU or AAX). 64 bit float if reaper or cubase with vst. 3) back to 64 bit float in the mixer 4) that 64 bit float often has to be truncated to 24-bit fixed to go to the device drivers. If it’s CoreAudio Apple drivers, then it’s getting rounded to 32-bit float. 5) whatever is in the drivers and interface dsp is getting truncated to 32 or 24 bit fixed point PCM to feed the chip. 32-bit only for newer ESS Sabre and TI PCM1795 chips now. AKM went up in flames. And some interfaces truncate the digital volume control so you better dither. Like RME total mix sounds better dithered.
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