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Post by tkaitkai on Sept 29, 2021 17:54:22 GMT -6
Apologies in advance for the hyperbole and super impassioned speech, but I am friggin' ecstatic right now.
Some of you have probably seen me rambling here and there about dealing with dirt/distortion in my vocal recordings. This is something I've been struggling with for a while now, and I've made a few threads trying to troubleshoot. To be fair, it was subtle, and certainly not a major issue (most people would never notice), but persistent and annoying enough to where it was starting to drive me crazy.
Tried all manner of things trying to combat the problem — different mics, different preamps, different outboard, mic placement, room treatment, cables, gain staging, compression/EQ settings, plugins, you name it. Lots of weird/esoteric things. Some inched me closer but nothing solved it.
Long story short (and I can't believe I'm saying this), it was the converters.
I sold my Aurora last week and bought a Lavry Blue, and I literally JUST did the first recordings a few minutes ago. Holy FUCK. I cannot believe this is what I was missing. I was fully expecting to hear only a minuscule difference at most, but this is so much more than that. It's like there's a layer of dirt that's just... gone. I've never been able to get vocals this clean in my home studio.
I know this is older, legacy gear and most of you are working with stuff that's much more up-to-date, but this is huge for me. I'm so happy I could scream.
Definitely going to share some clips when I get the chance.
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Post by chessparov on Sept 29, 2021 19:12:37 GMT -6
Awesome! (I figured it wasn't the Presonus unit  ) Chris |
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Post by tkaitkai on Sept 29, 2021 19:33:22 GMT -6
chessparovHey, those PreSonus compressors are actually supposed to be pretty cool! 
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Post by chessparov on Sept 29, 2021 22:20:12 GMT -6
True! They're sorta "Cult" Channel Strips now. Chris |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 29, 2021 23:02:43 GMT -6
Apologies in advance for the hyperbole and super impassioned speech, but I am friggin' ecstatic right now. Some of you have probably seen me rambling here and there about dealing with dirt/distortion in my vocal recordings. This is something I've been struggling with for a while now, and I've made a few threads trying to troubleshoot. To be fair, it was subtle, and certainly not a major issue (most people would never notice), but persistent and annoying enough to where it was starting to drive me crazy. Tried all manner of things trying to combat the problem — different mics, different preamps, different outboard, mic placement, room treatment, cables, gain staging, compression/EQ settings, plugins, you name it. Lots of weird/esoteric things. Some inched me closer but nothing solved it. Long story short (and I can't believe I'm saying this), it was the converters. I sold my Aurora last week and bought a Lavry Blue, and I literally JUST did the first recordings a few minutes ago. Holy FUCK. I cannot believe this is what I was missing. I was fully expecting to hear only a minuscule difference at most, but this is so much more than that. It's like there's a layer of dirt that's just... gone. I've never been able to get vocals this clean in my home studio. I know this is older, legacy gear and most of you are working with stuff that's much more up-to-date, but this is huge for me. I'm so happy I could scream. Definitely going to share some clips when I get the chance. I had a blue for a hot second in my roaring gear days. And I still think about that DA. Punchy and almost clinical. But I love that. I’ve often thought maybe it was just me missing the thing I don’t have anymore…but I really wonder if Lavry has something that others don’t do. |
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Post by tkaitkai on Sept 30, 2021 0:43:09 GMT -6
I had a blue for a hot second in my roaring gear days. And I still think about that DA. Punchy and almost clinical. But I love that. I’ve often thought maybe it was just me missing the thing I don’t have anymore…but I really wonder if Lavry has something that others don’t do. I just have the AD module for now, but it’s such a pronounced improvement that I’m definitely thinking about getting the DA too. Right now, I have to send tracks out of the Apollo DA back in through the Lavry... I bet the DA would be another big step up. It’s too soon for me to make any definitive statements, but these initial tests have me rethinking pretty much every other piece of gear I own. Ugh! I can’t believe I went so long without this. |
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 30, 2021 5:12:27 GMT -6
Did you have the older Aurora?
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Post by guitfiddler on Sept 30, 2021 8:30:47 GMT -6
Love the Lavry Blue
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Post by Guitar on Sept 30, 2021 8:39:40 GMT -6
I'm not surprised. I've had this problem with conversion before. The big one for me was the Echo Audiofire, absolute nightmare. But I AM surprised it was the Aurora doing this to you. Well, I've never owned one. But yeah this sounds like a typical story of using the wrong conversion, "everything" is wrong, and you can't sleep about it. Been there, glad you got it sorted.
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Post by mcirish on Sept 30, 2021 8:45:16 GMT -6
Interesting find. I have an Aurora 16 (first gen) and have never had any distortion issues. Maybe some of the caps were going bad in the power supply. That could have caused some issues. Glad you got it figured out.
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Post by tkaitkai on Sept 30, 2021 8:46:47 GMT -6
Did you have the older Aurora? Yep, the original Lynx Aurora 8. I should have clarified earlier. I haven't used the Aurora (n), but I know it's very similar to the Hilo, which I do have experience with (and which also sounds awesome). |
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Post by tkaitkai on Sept 30, 2021 9:06:20 GMT -6
I'm not surprised. I've had this problem with conversion before. The big one for me was the Echo Audiofire, absolute nightmare. But I AM surprised it was the Aurora doing this to you. Well, I've never owned one. But yeah this sounds like a typical story of using the wrong conversion, "everything" is wrong, and you can't sleep about it. Been there, glad you got it sorted. I was just as shocked that it was the Aurora, honestly. The differences between the Aurora and my Apollo (and other various interfaces) were minor at best, which led me to conclude that conversion wasn't the thing that was holding me back. In hindsight, I think I just happened to land on two of the most inappropriate choices for my work. Interesting find. I have an Aurora 16 (first gen) and have never had any distortion issues. Maybe some of the caps were going bad in the power supply. That could have caused some issues. Glad you got it figured out. Yeah, it was a really frustrating problem. I've heard some really amazing records made with the old Auroras (some by people I know personally), but I could just never get it to produce a sound I was 100% happy with. It just sounded too crispy/sizzly/crunchy and weird to me. I wouldn't call it "overt" distortion or anything, i.e. it was never so bad that it sounded like something was broken, but who knows! Either way, I'm happy to have found something that gives me what I want, and I'm glad your Aurora isn't giving you any grief. I wouldn't wish that on anyone! |
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Post by schmalzy on Sept 30, 2021 11:35:20 GMT -6
True! They're sorta "Cult" Channel Strips now. Chris I have two of 'em that I like a whole lot! |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 30, 2021 12:41:19 GMT -6
I'm friends with Albert Margolis. I think he's still a VP with Lynx. (Monster on keys BTW-has played with The Meters!!) It'd be fun to ask him about this kind of thang. Chris P.S. It was ear opening, when he had me listen to a couple different converters. Hiding my wallet now! |
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Post by tkaitkai on Sept 30, 2021 14:09:46 GMT -6
OK, got some clips. First off, not scientific at all. Pulled up a finished vocal from a session vocal job right before I sold the Aurora (not my song or lyrics), and re-did it with the Lavry. Same mic, same preamp/EQ, same compressor, same spot in my room. Upton 251 -> Wunder PEQ2R (HPF on) -> Grace M102 (moderate compression) -> Aurora/Lavry Auroradrive.google.com/file/d/1JZmPfqFNuccRaF_6oMgn6rR7yaaSd_Vj/view?usp=sharingLavry (no EQ)drive.google.com/file/d/1cwedAi6YsNssoa0oIZ3gX283PeM8327u/view?usp=sharingLavry w/ EQ (small low shelf cut)drive.google.com/file/d/1pzrH3awhzkdzLoQfhiLOnbmz4tobmlSA/view?usp=sharingThe crazy thing is that I could have SWORN I used the low shelf cut when I recorded with the Aurora (I left the Wunder parked at the exact settings I used on that session), but it sounds muddier than the Lavry with no EQ! For that reason, I did two takes with the Lavry — EQ in and EQ out. Comped, edited, and tuned to match the "finished" sound of the original clip. Like I said, it's subtle, but because they're my vocals, the differences are plain as day to me. Around 0:16 (on the lines "from bar to bar, it's a way of life"), I'd say it's blatantly obvious. Headphones recommended. |
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Post by ericn on Sept 30, 2021 20:57:31 GMT -6
Apologies in advance for the hyperbole and super impassioned speech, but I am friggin' ecstatic right now. Some of you have probably seen me rambling here and there about dealing with dirt/distortion in my vocal recordings. This is something I've been struggling with for a while now, and I've made a few threads trying to troubleshoot. To be fair, it was subtle, and certainly not a major issue (most people would never notice), but persistent and annoying enough to where it was starting to drive me crazy. Tried all manner of things trying to combat the problem — different mics, different preamps, different outboard, mic placement, room treatment, cables, gain staging, compression/EQ settings, plugins, you name it. Lots of weird/esoteric things. Some inched me closer but nothing solved it. Long story short (and I can't believe I'm saying this), it was the converters. I sold my Aurora last week and bought a Lavry Blue, and I literally JUST did the first recordings a few minutes ago. Holy FUCK. I cannot believe this is what I was missing. I was fully expecting to hear only a minuscule difference at most, but this is so much more than that. It's like there's a layer of dirt that's just... gone. I've never been able to get vocals this clean in my home studio. I know this is older, legacy gear and most of you are working with stuff that's much more up-to-date, but this is huge for me. I'm so happy I could scream. Definitely going to share some clips when I get the chance. I had a blue for a hot second in my roaring gear days. And I still think about that DA. Punchy and almost clinical. But I love that. I’ve often thought maybe it was just me missing the thing I don’t have anymore…but I really wonder if Lavry has something that others don’t do. I had a Lavry Black for a second, with the Mytek now I do think at this level most DA are either clinical or overly euphoric. I keep thinking for a combination of AD & DA the Lavry blue is a bargain but damn, the routing options on the Brooklyn DA+ are just so seductive. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 0:31:10 GMT -6
OK, got some clips. First off, not scientific at all. Pulled up a finished vocal from a session vocal job right before I sold the Aurora (not my song or lyrics), and re-did it with the Lavry. Same mic, same preamp/EQ, same compressor, same spot in my room. Upton 251 -> Wunder PEQ2R (HPF on) -> Grace M102 (moderate compression) -> Aurora/Lavry Auroradrive.google.com/file/d/1JZmPfqFNuccRaF_6oMgn6rR7yaaSd_Vj/view?usp=sharingLavry (no EQ)drive.google.com/file/d/1cwedAi6YsNssoa0oIZ3gX283PeM8327u/view?usp=sharingLavry w/ EQ (small low shelf cut)drive.google.com/file/d/1pzrH3awhzkdzLoQfhiLOnbmz4tobmlSA/view?usp=sharingThe crazy thing is that I could have SWORN I used the low shelf cut when I recorded with the Aurora (I left the Wunder parked at the exact settings I used on that session), but it sounds muddier than the Lavry with no EQ! For that reason, I did two takes with the Lavry — EQ in and EQ out. Comped, edited, and tuned to match the "finished" sound of the original clip. Like I said, it's subtle, but because they're my vocals, the differences are plain as day to me. Around 0:16 (on the lines "from bar to bar, it's a way of life"), I'd say it's blatantly obvious. Headphones recommended. The difference is not subtle at all. The Lavry sounds open and lovely. The Aurora sounds congested and dark. Curious to know how the (n) would stack up against the Blue. It’s also impressive that you can sing so consistently as to make two performances at different times essentially sound like one. I guess we’ll never know how much of the improvement is the converter and how much is just a better take (in terms of the odd noises in the Aurora take absent in the redo), but I can’t imagine hearing both and not choosing the Lavry. |
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 1, 2021 0:35:52 GMT -6
I'm surprised the Aurora was distorting, I get you might not of liked the overall quality of the AD but a working unit shouldn't actually distort.
Did you test it with a sine wave?
How hard were you hitting the front end?
Sometimes it's not the digital side but the quality of the analogue front end, you may of exceeded the headroom of the analogue side of the AD?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 1, 2021 8:00:47 GMT -6
I only listened on my computer speakers, but the Aurora highlighted a frequency in your natural voice that is gritty, the Lavry didn't, and sounds much smoother and finished.
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 1, 2021 8:23:09 GMT -6
The difference is not subtle at all. The Lavry sounds open and lovely. The Aurora sounds congested and dark. Curious to know how the (n) would stack up against the Blue. It’s also impressive that you can sing so consistently as to make two performances at different times essentially sound like one. I guess we’ll never know how much of the improvement is the converter and how much is just a better take (in terms of the odd noises in the Aurora take absent in the redo), but I can’t imagine hearing both and not choosing the Lavry. It's pretty surprising, isn't it? There's a solidity & presence to the midrange on the Lavry that I'd been chasing after for years. I definitely hear the same noises you mention on the Aurora take, and they were always there, no matter which mic/pre/EQ/compressor/gain staging I used. I'm glad you can hear the same thing I can... I was starting to feel crazy LOL. Thanks for listening! I'm surprised the Aurora was distorting, I get you might not of liked the overall quality of the AD but a working unit shouldn't actually distort. Did you test it with a sine wave? How hard were you hitting the front end? Sometimes it's not the digital side but the quality of the analogue front end, you may of exceeded the headroom of the analogue side of the AD? I think I might have made a poor choice of words by calling it "distortion." It wasn't really overt distortion so much as it was a gritty/gravelly sort of "textural" thing. At first blush, the Lynx would sound OK, but the second I'd try to brighten anything, it would bring out this nasty, brittle, crunchy texture in the high end that I couldn't get rid of for the life of me. It was like there was a subtle layer of garbage that was just permanently baked into the sound. I tried pretty much every gain setting imaginable between the mic/pre/outboard/AD, and I also played around with the headroom setting on the Aurora itself. The same cruddy quality was there no matter how hard or gently I hit the Aurora. I never got around to doing a sine wave test, unfortunately. The tipping point was coming across a bunch of old posts from user "shelterr" over at GS. His description of the original Aurora was freakishly close to my own experience, which made me curious enough to take the plunge... and I'm glad I did! |
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 1, 2021 8:25:37 GMT -6
I only listened on my computer speakers, but the Aurora highlighted a frequency in your natural voice that is gritty, the Lavry didn't, and sounds much smoother and finished. I've definitely wondered if it was just a quality inherent to my voice, and it very well could be. If so, I agree the Lavry presents it in a MUCH more flattering light. Thanks for listening Martin. |
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Post by Guitar on Oct 1, 2021 8:28:49 GMT -6
This is so satisfying to see this problem solved. This is the kind of thing that could throw you off every time you sit down. That's why I say the monitor path (including the DAC) is so important. I guess it applies to input stages as well in the case of recording converters.
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Post by notneeson on Oct 1, 2021 8:49:02 GMT -6
Glad you are digging the new box! It sounds "more expensive" to me. I have cut several records on the original Aurora's and never noticed any issues with the sound. They were the hot alternative to 192s back in their day.
Listening on Sennheiser HD6XX through my lapotop's internal soundcard, the difference is notable but I would not even blink if you gave me the Aurora tracks as a mixer for hire.
But, I think getting a vocal sound that inspires you, the artist, is worth its weight in gold, even if the difference is subtle to the casual listener. Also, when you're stoked on the sound, you're likely to get performances that are better, and the casual listener will definitely notice that!
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Post by plinker on Oct 1, 2021 8:51:43 GMT -6
Just curious: what are your levels (dBFS) running into the Aurora?
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 1, 2021 9:37:49 GMT -6
This is the kind of thing that could throw you off every time you sit down. That's EXACTLY what I was going through. Put the mic up, record, listen back, feel extremely disappointed and lose all motivation, repeat. It's amazing to have found a solution. Glad you are digging the new box! It sounds "more expensive" to me. I have cut several records on the original Aurora's and never noticed any issues with the sound. They were the hot alternative to 192s back in their day. Listening on Sennheiser HD6XX through my lapotop's internal soundcard, the difference is notable but I would not even blink if you gave me the Aurora tracks as a mixer for hire. But, I think getting a vocal sound that inspires you, the artist, is worth its weight in gold, even if the difference is subtle to the casual listener. Also, when you're stoked on the sound, you're likely to get performances that are better, and the casual listener will definitely notice that! I agree 100%. It's not that the Aurora sounded terrible or anything, it's just that the Lavry is pretty much exactly what I've always wanted to hear, and like you said, the sense of freedom that gives me is worth its weight in gold. |
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