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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 1, 2021 9:44:56 GMT -6
Just curious: what are your levels (dBFS) running into the Aurora? I tried lots of different levels when I had the Aurora — everything from whisper quiet to super hot. When I got my Upton (a few months before I sold the Aurora), I spent a day playing with mic pre/compressor gain. I used the compressor output to determine level into the Aurora. What sounded best to me ended up being around -10 dB (RMS), give or take. Maybe a little hot, but anything lower or higher didn't sound as good to me. The clip I posted above was the best sound I ever managed to wrangle out of the Aurora.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 10:12:01 GMT -6
This is the kind of thing that could throw you off every time you sit down. That's EXACTLY what I was going through. Put the mic up, record, listen back, feel extremely disappointed and lose all motivation, repeat. It's amazing to have found a solution. Glad you are digging the new box! It sounds "more expensive" to me. I have cut several records on the original Aurora's and never noticed any issues with the sound. They were the hot alternative to 192s back in their day. Listening on Sennheiser HD6XX through my lapotop's internal soundcard, the difference is notable but I would not even blink if you gave me the Aurora tracks as a mixer for hire. But, I think getting a vocal sound that inspires you, the artist, is worth its weight in gold, even if the difference is subtle to the casual listener. Also, when you're stoked on the sound, you're likely to get performances that are better, and the casual listener will definitely notice that! I agree 100%. It's not that the Aurora sounded terrible or anything, it's just that the Lavry is pretty much exactly what I've always wanted to hear, and like you said, the sense of freedom that gives me is worth its weight in gold. Given how popular the Aurora has been for years, I wonder if something in yours had just gone wrong? Or when combined with your particular equipment, it just wasn't happy? I've seen good gear become a "victim of circumstance" that cannot otherwise be explained.
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Post by drsax on Oct 1, 2021 10:37:01 GMT -6
I used 4 channels of Lavry Blue ADDA as my main converters for about a decade. Absolutely loved them. Converters make a notable difference IMO.
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Post by christopher on Oct 1, 2021 10:40:27 GMT -6
From the stuff I’ve read by him, Dan Lavry is an animal of an engineer, extremely passionate and seems to know every little thing about audio electronic engineering and conversion. And what he doesn’t know, or anyone knows, he will try to find out, and do it in the most scientific way he can. Of course as always, it can’t be without controversy, and sometimes science is wrong, that’s how science moves forward… slowly. I see his passion in these papers, the guy is putting that passion directly into his products, no question in my mind, and that to me is awesome. While every manufacturer has been telling us conversion is perfect, he’s been trying to show where it’s messed up and also trying to figure out how to improve it www.lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-white-paper-the_optimal_sample_rate_for_quality_audio.pdflavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-sampling-theory.pdflavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-sampling-oversampling-imaging-aliasing.pdfI respect the guy, though sometimes I’m not in agreement with all his comments. At the end of the day all that really matters is how it works
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 1, 2021 10:59:22 GMT -6
Given how popular the Aurora has been for years, I wonder if something in yours had just gone wrong? Or when combined with your particular equipment, it just wasn't happy? I've seen good gear become a "victim of circumstance" that cannot otherwise be explained. I've had this exact same thought. In my mind, each piece of gear exists as part of a system, so even though I was using some of the same exact gear as other producers/engineers I'd worked with, their "systems" were different than mine. For one reason or another, certain pieces just seem to not play so well with others, even when there's no sensible explanation for it. I definitely don't mean to bash the Aurora or especially Lynx as a company. Paul is a GREAT dude and their customer service is top-notch. The Hilo is a truly phenomenal box. Hell, Random Access Memories was tracked with an original Aurora (although clocked off a 10M). It just didn't work for me, which was a bummer. But in hindsight, I'm glad I struggled through that, because it definitely made me a much better engineer. Silver lining.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 1, 2021 11:18:09 GMT -6
We've all got different ears, at the end of the day. Like notneeson said in a different thread, we find the things that make the difference for us! Low or high, rare or common, could be anything.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 16:39:49 GMT -6
tkaitkaiDid you have Aurora or Aurora (n)? I didn’t like Aurora but love the Hilo and the (n). Right now I’m on Apogee Symphony Desktop and just trying to figure out how to get more channels of at least this level. My MOTU setup had straight up distorted midrange compared to this and was narrower. Apogee’s thunderbolt chips were discontinued and the ensemble and elements aren’t being made anymore…
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 1, 2021 17:00:37 GMT -6
tkaitkaiDid you have Aurora or Aurora (n)? I didn’t like Aurora but love the Hilo and the (n). Right now I’m on Apogee Symphony Desktop and just trying to figure out how to get more channels of at least this level. My MOTU setup had straight up distorted midrange compared to this and was narrower. Apogee’s thunderbolt chips were discontinued and the ensemble and elements aren’t being made anymore… It was the original Aurora 8. The Hilo is a fantastic piece of kit and if the (n) is anything like it, my guess is it would sound WAY better than the Aurora clip I posted. I was actually considering the Symphony Desktop for a bit, but ultimately went Lavry because I’m completely unfamiliar with Apogee’s sound, whereas one of the studios I recorded at years ago had Lavry Blues. I would constantly reference those recordings trying to match them, and lo and behold, the Lavry is what finally got me there.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 17:28:04 GMT -6
tkaitkai Did you have Aurora or Aurora (n)? I didn’t like Aurora but love the Hilo and the (n). Right now I’m on Apogee Symphony Desktop and just trying to figure out how to get more channels of at least this level. My MOTU setup had straight up distorted midrange compared to this and was narrower. Apogee’s thunderbolt chips were discontinued and the ensemble and elements aren’t being made anymore… It was the original Aurora 8. The Hilo is a fantastic piece of kit and if the (n) is anything like it, my guess is it would sound WAY better than the Aurora clip I posted. I was actually considering the Symphony Desktop for a bit, but ultimately went Lavry because I’m completely unfamiliar with Apogee’s sound, whereas one of the studios I recorded at years ago had Lavry Blues. I would constantly reference those recordings trying to match them, and lo and behold, the Lavry is what finally got me there. Good decision. Lavry is awesome. The Symphony Desktop was just the right price at the right time for me.
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Post by ab101 on Oct 1, 2021 17:36:36 GMT -6
I had the original Aurora for years. Then I got the Aurora(n). The difference is significant in terms of openness and clarity - in favor of the Aurora (n). And I agree that on the clips, the Lavry blue is much better (compared to the original Aurora).
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Post by mythundreamt on Oct 4, 2021 19:41:44 GMT -6
Congratulations. Eureka moments like this are awesome. Thanks for posting, that A/B is illuminating to hear. I’m converter shopping myself so thanks for adding an entry to my shortlist. Especially since I have the exact same mic and pre.
Also - and you hear this time every time you post a clip - your singing is ridiculously good.
Gonna pm you something about the mic pre.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2021 19:49:08 GMT -6
tkaitkai, out of curiosity, how many channels of Lavry did you buy, and what are you connecting to the computer via?
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 4, 2021 21:49:46 GMT -6
Congratulations. Eureka moments like this are awesome. Thanks for posting, that A/B is illuminating to hear. I’m converter shopping myself so thanks for adding an entry to my shortlist. Especially since I have the exact same mic and pre. Also - and you hear this time every time you post a clip - your singing is ridiculously good. Gonna pm you something about the mic pre. Thanks so much for the compliments! Really glad my A/B could be of use to someone. Just PM'd ya.
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 4, 2021 21:54:55 GMT -6
tkaitkai , out of curiosity, how many channels of Lavry did you buy, and what are you connecting to the computer via? Just two channels — I got a 4496-4 with the M-Sync clock card and M.AD 824 module installed. Currently using a Hosa ODL-312 to convert AES to SPDIF and go optical into my Apollo. I'm considering ditching the Apollo and getting a different interface so I can just go straight AES.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2021 22:44:52 GMT -6
tkaitkai , out of curiosity, how many channels of Lavry did you buy, and what are you connecting to the computer via? Just two channels — I got a 4496-4 with the M-Sync clock card and M.AD 824 module installed. Currently using a Hosa ODL-312 to convert AES to SPDIF and go optical into my Apollo. I'm considering ditching the Apollo and getting a different interface so I can just go straight AES. Funny you mention that. Not having AES (except on the 16x16) was a major sticking point with me buying an Apollo. Otherwise, it was a shoo-in for a long time before I decided to go HDX.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 31, 2022 16:12:37 GMT -6
Wanted to update this, as it just keeps getting better.
Ended up buying a UH7000 to go straight AES from the Lavry… holy shit. I cannot believe how much better this sounds, and I was already quite pleased with my previous results!
When I first got the Lavry, I was using a janky ass Hosa AES/SPDIF adapter into my Apollo. It was a major improvement over the Aurora, but this just took it up several notches. I’m seriously impressed, and simultaneously shocked that I’m hearing any difference at all.
Compared to the Aurora + Apollo setup, the Lavry + UH7000 makes it sound like I have a whole new mic/front end. It’s pretty incredible.
Better yet, the UH7000 is a really fucking impressive piece on its own. I’ve never really cared about D/A converters until now. The headphone amp sounds absolutely gorgeous, and so do the monitor outs. I feel like I can actually hear what’s really going on, and it makes me wonder if maybe half the struggle with the Apollo was that I was hearing things that weren’t there. I can’t believe I spent over 5 years with that goddamn thing. Everything about this interface makes the Apollo sound toyish in comparison.
Everything except the workflow, of course. The Apollo’s workflow is unparalleled. There are a bunch of weird quirks with the UH7000 that will take some getting used to — it won’t let me do 96kHz over AES, and I’m definitely going to need a monitor controller (the lack of an independent headphone out is driving me bonkers). But man… the sound makes it all worth it.
Blows my mind that Tascam discontinued these things. This is easily the best sounding budget interface I’ve ever used. I'll try and get some clips up when I have time.
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Post by thecolourfulway on Jan 31, 2022 16:50:09 GMT -6
This is pretty amazing, even on my phone speaker the difference in the clips you posted is glaring. I don’t do a lot of conversion, staying analog until final mastering, but holy smokes I am questioning my converters now. I’m using an Apollo, I never really like how the digital prints sound but I figured that’s just because I don’t like how digital sounds….now I’m wondering….
Did you say you tried the Apollo converters and were disappointed with those as well?
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Post by enlav on Jan 31, 2022 17:30:25 GMT -6
Side topic, but related.
Lavry has always been on my radar but just out of my price range for the IO count I'd want - but I was reading elsewhere that Lavry isn't nearly as expensive outside of the USA (not sure if that's out-dated or what) - where as you guys shopping for Lavry converters?
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 31, 2022 18:19:49 GMT -6
This is pretty amazing, even on my phone speaker the difference in the clips you posted is glaring. I don’t do a lot of conversion, staying analog until final mastering, but holy smokes I am questioning my converters now. I’m using an Apollo, I never really like how the digital prints sound but I figured that’s just because I don’t like how digital sounds….now I’m wondering…. Did you say you tried the Apollo converters and were disappointed with those as well? Yep, but keep in mind I was using the original silver Apollo Twin MKI — I've never used the newer Apollos. Most seem to agree that the Apollo X converters are a substantial improvement over the previous generations, and the clips I've heard do sound really good.
That said, now that I've Seen The Light™, the original Apollos sound pretty bad to me. Not terrible, but mediocre enough to where I would never want to record anything with one again. On its own, it sounded okay, but compared to my Lavry, it was grungy, congested, warbly, and too hot in the lower mids. The Aurora MKI was a slight improvement, but pretty much one step forward, two steps back — a bit brighter, but also brittle, crunchy, and sizzly in way that I absolutely hated, like there was a subtle fuzz/dirt baked into the signal.
Prior to owning the Lavry, I would have never attributed this kind of thing to my A/D. At one point, I actually thought I was having some kind of RF or dirty power issue. LOL.
If you're questioning it, I'd say it's worth a shot. Worst case scenario, it makes no difference for you and you don't have to worry about conversion. But I think once you go for something like Lavry/Prism/Merging/Burl/DAD/RADAR/whatever, it'll be pretty hard to go back.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 31, 2022 20:50:52 GMT -6
This is kind of amusing to me... I went from a Silver Apollo to the Tascam UH7000 DAC also in that order... but for me this was like 6 or 7 years ago. It's interesting to me that you did the same progression.
I've never had a Lavry, though. I also ended up liking the Focusrite Clarett conversion after that. Then moved to the Topping DX7S. Now I'm heavily reliant on the sound of the MOTU Ultralite MK 5 which is my all round favorite to date.
Although I cant fault any of the ones listed, they all sound very good.
And yeah, those original Apollos do sound pretty good. Until you hear something else. They have a ton of crud in the signal. Audio crud, sometimes can sound great. But for conversion my ideal is more clean and clear, wide open.
I have two Tascam UH7000 right now. I think I'm going to use them for their mic pres, which are also very good. I've got so many things stacked up here though they're not the first reach any more, but I've been using one for acoustic guitar a bit in the past few months, which it excels at.
I liked the UH7000 so much, and the Ultra HDIA mic preamps that I got 8 channels of these in the Tascam Series 8p Dyna. I use it for my acoustic drums, works fine. I find these inputs to be very clear but with just a hint of "moodiness" in the top end, almost a tiny bit of darkness or something. So hard to get a good word for something like this. But it's a good sound. So yeah I've got 12 channels of these. Used to rant about the UH7000 constantly on the other forum, crazy value for money.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 31, 2022 21:22:03 GMT -6
I have two Tascam UH7000 right now. I think I'm going to use them for their mic pres, which are also very good. I've got so many things stacked up here though they're not the first reach any more, but I've been using one for acoustic guitar a bit in the past few months, which it excels at. Oh man, if there's one area where I absolutely hated the Apollo, it was acoustic guitar. Good god. I couldn't wrangle a usable acoustic sound out of that thing if you put a gun to my head. Tried all manner of mics/preamps/compressors/guitars/room treatment, and it was just horrendous every time. The Aurora wasn't much better, but I managed to get a decent pass once or twice. I probably just suck at guitar.
Haven't had time to properly put the Lavry/Tascam through their paces on ACG. Itching to try them out.
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Post by soundintheround on Jan 31, 2022 21:22:16 GMT -6
I have an original silver apollo, apollo 8 black, apollo 16 black and aurora lynx 8 (original) with external antelope clock. (which I think the clock makes a difference and adds a certain quality to the sound, might be in my head)
Just like with anything else, I feel like there isn't always a clear winner for everything. Sometimes a converter might sound awesome on one source with the right combination of things, but not as good for another. Maybe that thing you don't like on your voice using the aurora, might be kinda cool on guitar?
Not saying to treat converters like preamps, but i think it might depend a bit on the source. Having said that I think transparency is critical, and I always thought the aurora lynx was pretty transparent.
Also to be honest I'd probably rather just have a single 32 channel converter box....but I kept adding apollos because of the UAD plugins and good prices getting them 2nd hand.
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Post by ericn on Jan 31, 2022 22:24:23 GMT -6
I have an original silver apollo, apollo 8 black, apollo 16 black and aurora lynx 8 (original) with external antelope clock. (which I think the clock makes a difference and adds a certain quality to the sound, might be in my head) Just like with anything else, I feel like there isn't always a clear winner for everything. Sometimes a converter might sound awesome on one source with the right combination of things, but not as good for another. Maybe that thing you don't like on your voice using the aurora, might be kinda cool on guitar? Not saying to treat converters like preamps, but i think it might depend a bit on the source. Having said that I think transparency is critical, and I always thought the aurora lynx was pretty transparent. Also to be honest I'd probably rather just have a single 32 channel converter box....but I kept adding apollos because of the UAD plugins and good prices getting them 2nd hand. You hit on something big here, we want all conversion to be the same, but like anything else sometimes something just works better. I have had the RADAR sitting here as I was mixing some stuff and needed the I / o well just hooking it up for listening I have to say if they built a 2ch DA it would be almost perfect for most stuff that doesn’t work on the Mytek.
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 1, 2022 13:56:18 GMT -6
Now that I've said that.....I think I have maybe heard my Auroras give off a crunch like quality at strange times. Maybe only when they are getting pushed pretty hard or some specific frequency. Otherwise I think they are fairly transparent 'tone-wise'. (that sounds kinda counterintuitive, but idk)
But I think thats where some of the biggest differences between converters maybe come in. How they handle soft-clipping, instantaneous transients/peaks/etc.
--Has anyone tried the Antelope Orion 32? Anyone ditch PCM for DSD?
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Post by dach on Feb 1, 2022 14:24:25 GMT -6
Hi all. Just fyi those Auroras run very hot. Lynx tech support will tell you after 7 years or so the Auroras need to be recapped. Noise is there even if you don't hear it and will become more apparent over time. Nothing wrong with the Lynx stuff, just needs maintenance, not something you normally think about with ad/da but those are excellent boxes until the caps begin to introduce noise.
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