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Post by tahoebrian5 on Sept 29, 2021 10:17:48 GMT -6
Hi all, hoping some of you can comment on options to buy, build, or have built a 251 style mic.
ive come across so many options my head is spinning. I was almost set on a Lawson but from what I’ve gathered it’s not really the same circuit, but many have commented it’s excellent in its own way. I know I can demo them but not having a 251 to compare to, I’ll likely always be wondering if I’m missing out (fomo!)
What I’m looking for is something bright but with a silky top end. Primarily for my wife’s vocals But acoustic guitar also. Various genres from singer acoustic guitar, to pop, to metal. She can tend to sound harsh in the highs especially around 3k and I think it’s time to try a different mic.
I really loved some of the demos of the elam on the Tfunk website but 10k is not in my budget!
this is going to be my xmas present to her so a couple months still to decide. I was going to go for a diy but it’s going to be very difficult to keep that secret 😀
is there anyone on the board that builds these?
thoughts in buying a warm audio and just changing out the capsule, and maybe tube?
any suggestions are very appreciated. I am hoping to stay under $3,000 usd but if it can’t be done right for that I may go higher.
thanks a bunch!
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Post by mcirish on Sept 29, 2021 10:54:24 GMT -6
I work with an alto singer who also has a harshness at 2.7-3k. We tried a ton of microphones and ended up with a modified Miktek CV4. I swapped the original capsule (very harsh) with a Beesneez K7. It's our favorite vocal mic for her voice. Obviously, it's all going to be singer dependent, but this worked for me. You can hear it here on the female voice. Shadowfields "Wonderful World" I have also used a 251 on vocals a few times. It had a very nice and smooth top end but did not have the fulness in the lower midrange that the U47 type mics I have had. In the end we liked the K7 capsule best on her voice. The Miktek CV4 has quite good electronics. It's unfortunately hampered by an overly bright capsule. I was ready to sell the mic before I swapped capsules. It was horrible. Now it is one of my most used vocal mics. |
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Post by tahoebrian5 on Sept 29, 2021 11:13:55 GMT -6
Thank you for the reply and link. It’s funny but the lady singer in that video has a very similar resonance that I usually get from my wife. I think something a touch smoother is what I’m looking for. Are you saying you liked the top end on her voice using a 251 but it lacked fullness?
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 29, 2021 11:24:41 GMT -6
Ah what about the mike in classifieds?
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Post by dreamsambas on Sept 29, 2021 11:34:50 GMT -6
A 251 is a fairly simple build. I'd suggest getting someone to build you one. Capsule from Campbell, Heiserman, or Upton. Transformer from Haufe. Plenty of tube options... You could end up well under that budget for a fairly accurate reproduction.
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Post by mcirish on Sept 29, 2021 11:36:53 GMT -6
Thank you for the reply and link. It’s funny but the lady singer in that video has a very similar resonance that I usually get from my wife. I think something a touch smoother is what I’m looking for. Are you saying you liked the top end on her voice using a 251 but it lacked fullness? Yes, I did like the 251 on her voice but as stated, it lacked the body I wanted. I think the CK12 capsules are a bit more open sounding and have a bit less low mid mass. I compared so many mics with each other on her voice over the years. In most cases, any differences could be cured with a touch of EQ. Not huge. I know I may get pummeled, but a 251 and a U47 can be used on similar sources with similar results once a little EQ is applied. I had a U48 and a 251 in the studio at the same time and both worked great on multiple different singers. My CM7GS/M7 held up to both pretty well once I added 1dB of 10K to it. For me, I'm always looking for a vocal mic that has the least amount of sibilance and can take EQ well. Many different types of capsules can do this if they are made well. BTW - I'm not a purist. I just need tools that work and get me results fast. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Sept 29, 2021 11:42:05 GMT -6
First couple of questions you need to ask yourself,
1. How much do I want to spend? Set a budget listen to some mics then reconsider your budget.
2. Do you want to buy a turnkey mic or do you want to mess with mods or builds?
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Post by Guitar on Sept 29, 2021 11:43:37 GMT -6
I can build them, I have a DIY mic that's "251 inspired" but it's not an exact clone, I love these mics, they are my favorite vocal microphones. The best on my particular voice.
Todd's ADK Z Mod 251 would be a really smart buy, if it's still available.
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Post by tkaitkai on Sept 29, 2021 11:59:06 GMT -6
I bought an Upton 251 a few months ago and it has been a total game-changer so far. Easily the best vocal mic I've owned to date, beating my M149 which I loved to death. Swapped the tube for a NOS Mullard 12AT7 and it really sweetened up the top end. Takes EQ like a champ, which is something I always struggled with previously.
I'm considering having Dallas tune it to be a little darker, but I just sold my Aurora and bought a Lavry, so I want to see what difference the A/D makes before sending it off. But regardless, it's an absolutely stellar mic and I have nothing but good things to say about it.
I have a good amount of experience with the Lawson, which is also a fantastic mic. I actually think the Lawson and Upton are pretty similar, at least on my voice. The GAP 251 also seems really promising based on clips I've heard, but I've never used it, so I can't really comment.
If you have the budget, go for the Upton. Try it out stock, and if you're really nitpicky (aren't we all?), do a tube swap, and maybe have Dallas tune it. You won't regret it. Barring that, the Lawson is a great choice.
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Post by teejay on Sept 29, 2021 21:55:37 GMT -6
I can build them, I have a DIY mic that's "251 inspired" but it's not an exact clone, I love these mics, they are my favorite vocal microphones. The best on my particular voice. Todd's ADK Z Mod 251 would be a really smart buy, if it's still available. It is. And I might be persuaded to throw in a NOS 1960 GE 6072.  I demoed the Upton with both stock and NOS Mullard tubes, and it is a really nice mic. I'd suggest you check out hadaja's shootout thread, which includes both the Upton and the ADK: realgearonline.com/thread/12649/another-unscientific-mic-shootout-clip He does a nice job, and his voice is a good gauge. Some surprises in the results. Alternately, monkeyxx knows how to build great gear. |
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Post by recordingengineer on Sept 29, 2021 22:11:02 GMT -6
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Post by reddirt on Sept 29, 2021 23:11:53 GMT -6
Sort of relevant to the issue so i'll fly with it ; i often see people saying a bright mic is good for a female and I don't get it all as in my world it's the female's "brightness" that could handle moderation with a mic of less "brightness". Ive put brightness in quotation marks as everyone's definition of brightness is different.
To the topic - anything where you can retrofit a NOS Mullard is going to be improved in the way you require - they can be a lovely tube and easily in the Telefunken tube class - it's just preference at that point.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by drumsound on Sept 30, 2021 0:20:13 GMT -6
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Post by chessparov on Sept 30, 2021 9:02:41 GMT -6
Yep.
Chris
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Post by enlav on Sept 30, 2021 10:39:50 GMT -6
I just listened to some of those clips that teejay uploaded with the various K47/M7 mics/capsules along with his 251.
That thing sounds great.
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Post by nnajar on Sept 30, 2021 10:49:44 GMT -6
upton upton upton upton upton
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Post by aremos on Sept 30, 2021 15:47:53 GMT -6
upton upton upton upton upton "UPTON girl ... she's been living in my UPTON world" |
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Post by tahoebrian5 on Sept 30, 2021 23:09:55 GMT -6
Thanks for all the comments!
Question, when mentioning tuning the mic, is this something done to the capsule, or tranny swap, or rather changing bypas cap , bias network, etc?
The ADK is tempting also. I’m probably spending way too much time and energy geeking out on this decision.
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Post by hadaja on Oct 1, 2021 0:16:15 GMT -6
Adk is a really nice choice but i am bias as i own one and the Upton is a supreme choice and i might be bias as i own that as well.
$3000 puts you very close to a new Upton.
I also have a BSA 251 and it is also a nice mic.
I got chad to do me up a special custom 251 about 2-3 years ago. I dont seem to use that one now that i have these others.
But yes it is also a nice mic.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Oct 1, 2021 10:47:32 GMT -6
Thanks for all the comments! Question, when mentioning tuning the mic, is this something done to the capsule, or tranny swap, or rather changing bypas cap , bias network, etc? The ADK is tempting also. I’m probably spending way too much time and energy geeking out on this decision. It can mean many things in most cases it refers to some tuning of circuit or capsule maybe a tube swap. |
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Post by bgrotto on Oct 1, 2021 11:02:55 GMT -6
I've got a pair of Upton 251s at my studio that were VERY well-loved...till a colleague brought his Lawson 251 to show me. We did some direct a/b comparisons, and afterwards I promptly bought the Lawson and haven't used the Upton since.
I might still have the a/b files somewhere. If i can find em, I'll share a link.
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Post by enlav on Oct 1, 2021 15:59:20 GMT -6
Deviating a bit from the topic (as in, something that's well above $3k), I always see love for the Upton, but there's also the Bock 251 for not -too- much more. For those that appreciate the Upton 251, is the Bock something of a departure? It certainly looks very different from your typical clone, but I know some other designs under Bock (or Soundelux?) have received praise. In the other direction, the Peluso 22 251 is only ~$1650? That honestly makes me pause - I assumed it'd be north of 2k; Peluso Mics in general have a bit of a reputation for being on the brighter side. Granted, it's loaded with processing/effects, but the vocals on Some Nights (fun.) was cut with the Peluso 251, if I'm not mistaken. It's been a while since I've heard any of those tracks, but I remember the vocals... when they're not being purposely obliterated by pitch correction... were good.
(Ugh. I really hope once the Heiserman H47tube arrives, I'll be basically done with my mic/gear GAS... but...)
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Post by drumsound on Oct 1, 2021 22:08:02 GMT -6
I've used 3 different mics with Peluso capsules. 2 of his and an early Pearlman. On all three I notices a really nice sound at medium volumes, but NONE of them held up to loud singing. If you're a belter, I'd not get a mic with a Peluso capsule.
there might be other reasons to not do business with him...
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Post by teejay on Oct 2, 2021 10:04:25 GMT -6
I had the Peluso 22 251 for 15 years. (Had the 2247SE for the same amount of time.) I'm sure there are applications it works well on, but I could never make it work on my own voice. And believe me, I tried. Switched tubes, switched preamps, bought software EQs. It was "brighter" than my ADK, my REDD, and the Upton I demoed...and not in a good way. It also did not take EQ like any of those other three mics. Not trying to slam the Peluso's, but you see if you can demo before you commit.
drumsound is spot-on.
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Post by tahoebrian5 on Oct 2, 2021 18:19:08 GMT -6
Well after much debate I decided I’m going to start with the Warm Audio and hopefully save some money getting a used one. The shootouts I’ve heard the top sounds a bit harsher than other specimens but I’m thinking a tube swap, coupling cap if needed, and maybe capsule swap should get me pretty close.
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