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Post by hadaja on Oct 2, 2021 18:48:05 GMT -6
Well after much debate I decided I’m going to start with the Warm Audio and hopefully save some money getting a used one. The shootouts I’ve heard the top sounds a bit harsher than other specimens but I’m thinking a tube swap, coupling cap if needed, and maybe capsule swap should get me pretty close. So if your budget was $3k and your buying a WA251 and soending money on it to improve it as you already know its not up to par , why not the adk as there is nothing to spend on that and i think todd has his for around the $2k mark?
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Post by chessparov on Oct 2, 2021 19:16:36 GMT -6
Also I think something of that quality, will hold its value well.
The tough things on mods (other than Klaus'), is generally you don't recoup $$, if you decide to sell it later. Chris
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Post by enlav on Oct 2, 2021 20:17:16 GMT -6
Well after much debate I decided I’m going to start with the Warm Audio and hopefully save some money getting a used one. The shootouts I’ve heard the top sounds a bit harsher than other specimens but I’m thinking a tube swap, coupling cap if needed, and maybe capsule swap should get me pretty close. So if your budget was $3k and your buying a WA251 and soending money on it to improve it as you already know its not up to par , why not the adk as there is nothing to spend on that and i think todd has his for around the $2k mark? I disagree. Let them go for that, so if my itch isn't filled after that H47tube pre-order gets filled, I can still buy that ADK. I've used 3 different mics with Peluso capsules. 2 of his and an early Pearlman. On all three I notices a really nice sound at medium volumes, but NONE of them held up to loud singing. If you're a belter, I'd not get a mic with a Peluso capsule. there might be other reasons to not do business with him...I had the Peluso 22 251 for 15 years. (Had the 2247SE for the same amount of time.) I'm sure there are applications it works well on, but I could never make it work on my own voice. And believe me, I tried. Switched tubes, switched preamps, bought software EQs. It was "brighter" than my ADK, my REDD, and the Upton I demoed...and not in a good way. It also did not take EQ like any of those other three mics. Not trying to slam the Peluso's, but you see if you can demo before you commit. drumsound is spot-on. I listened to some youtube videos after posting, and I was tempted to make an edit. There was one particular video that featured a few acoustic guitars. It could been youtube compression/artifacting, but some of the sound felt like it was brighter than my TLM103.
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Post by tahoebrian5 on Oct 2, 2021 21:51:13 GMT -6
After listening carefully to some of the comparisons the Warm sounds pretty close other than a touch more harshness in the high end that I suspect can be tamed. My other thought after reflecting for a while is my room will probably be an issue more than the small difference cheaping out on the Warm will be. It’s treated but small at 11’x13’. I suspect I can pick up a used Warm for $650, maybe couple hundred in upgrades if I’m not happy I can sell it for maybe small loss and move on. Also I just bought an Audioscape 76A which helps everything sound better
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Post by chessparov on Oct 3, 2021 0:53:19 GMT -6
Brian, if you're hovering around that price point... I'd take the Roswell Colares seriously. And check out the Blue Blueberry too, if possible. Chris
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Post by tahoebrian5 on Oct 3, 2021 9:47:00 GMT -6
The Colares looks interesting. How close would you say does it get to the 251 vibe?
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Post by guitfiddler on Oct 3, 2021 10:32:11 GMT -6
I have only heard the Delphos mk1 in the Roswell lineup. It was a solid performer for the price, then we made the mistake of comparing it to the Bock 251, we were surprised it actually sounded good still next to the 251, however the 251 had much more of everything that good, and better, and it was a no brainer on which one to use. I've never heard the Colares, so I don't know, but I was looking at this mic a few months back. It is a Solid State mic, so I'm not sure how you make a 251 that's solid state, it's one of those things where you have to try it and see. It has good reviews.
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Post by teejay on Oct 3, 2021 10:42:12 GMT -6
After listening carefully to some of the comparisons the Warm sounds pretty close other than a touch more harshness in the high end that I suspect can be tamed. My other thought after reflecting for a while is my room will probably be an issue more than the small difference cheaping out on the Warm will be. It’s treated but small at 11’x13’. I suspect I can pick up a used Warm for $650, maybe couple hundred in upgrades if I’m not happy I can sell it for maybe small loss and move on. Also I just bought an Audioscape 76A which helps everything sound better So if I may, let me expound a bit more on my experience...and take it FWIW. I've been down the path of buying and selling numerous mid-level mics over the past 15 years in search of eliminating harshness. Each time I thought/hoped that I could make it work. Swapped lots of tubes, swapped transformers, bought and sold preamps, and invested in EQ, compressor, and saturation hardware and plugins. All in an effort to fix the mic issues. What I've found is that all of those things do a great job of enhancing what is already good in a mic, but are not the solution to fixing something that is inherently a problem at the source. I've literally spent years experimenting, buying, modding, and selling mics that had some deficiency, all to the detriment of actually recording and completing projects. As you hear over and over, you have to get the source right, and that in large-part means the capsule. The problem I've found with trying to EQ harsh mics is they don't take EQ well. Once you start notching out the harshness, that attempt to fix one area only reveals hidden issues with other frequencies. Then you try to fix those areas. It's a domino effect that eventually sucks the life out of the recorded sound. Garbage in, garbage out. I'm not advising you on what mic brand/model you should or should not buy. I would just encourage you to consider the fact that you're already saying the Warm has harshness, and to understand that "taming" that will likely not be as easy as a tube or transformer swap. And to weigh how much time you want to spend on tweaks and mods and additional hardware in an unknown effort to fix perhaps the unfixable vs. investing in a mic that just delivers the first time. I hope this is somewhat helpful. Good luck on your journey!
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Post by Guitar on Oct 3, 2021 10:50:11 GMT -6
todd, that is some A+ mic wisdom!
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Post by bgrotto on Oct 3, 2021 11:29:52 GMT -6
I'd like to second the notion that one doesn't just simply 'tame' harshness in lesser mics. Certainly not by swapping tubes. Body and head basket resonances, capsules, yada yada...this stuff all contributes and is generally not really DIY-able. Mics are, for better or worse, one of those places where it usually pays to just pony up for the right one in the first place.
I'd add that while I've not used the 76A, I have used several other "A/B" - style 76s, including a proper urei one, and they're fairly unforgiving of harsh sources. The midrange aggression they add will almost certainly bring out the worst in that Warm mic (or your room...or your voice 🤦🏻♂️...etc....ha).
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Post by chessparov on Oct 3, 2021 11:53:17 GMT -6
I expect both guitfiddler's and Todd's (teejay) 251 styles, to be closer to an original 251, than the Colares-let alone the stock Warm. Once in a while due to just a few specific sources, or an individual one, an "Inspired By" can be comparable to the original. Occasionally, even superior. For example, my U195 (FLAT) is a bit superior to a U87ai on me. (go Team Bock! ) When the U195 is set in FAT (Circuit Tube emulation switched on), sounds like a U67 with some Funky Processing thrown on. Great for Soul style vocals BTW. Not so much for a Michael Buble impersonater! Ironically, out of "The Big 5" (or 6-depending who you talk to), generally the 251 style seems the Runt of the Litter on me. (out of the ones I've tried the Bock 251 and Eric H's capsule were stellar though-T-Funk and Warm lesser) I remember reading that on one of Smokey's solo Albums, they tried an original/Primo C12 on him. The Producer/AE said it was "so wrong" for his voice! Chris P.S. My understanding is that the Big 5 would be... U47/U67/U87/C12/251. Klaus "won't let me include" the C37!!
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Post by bgrotto on Oct 3, 2021 12:21:19 GMT -6
I expect both guitfiddler's and Todd's (teejay) 251 styles, to be closer to an original 251, than the Colares-let alone the stock Warm. Once in a while due to just a few specific sources, or an individual one, an "Inspired By" can be comparable to the original. Occasionally, even superior. For example, my U195 (FLAT) is a bit superior to a U87ai on me. (go Team Bock! ) When the U195 is set in FAT (Circuit Tube emulation switched on), sounds like a U67 with some Funky Processing thrown on. Great for Soul style vocals BTW. Not so much for a Michael Buble impersonater! Ironically, out of "The Big 5" (or 6-depending who you talk to), generally the 251 style seems the Runt of the Litter on me. (out of the ones I've tried the Bock 251 and Eric H's capsule were stellar though-T-Funk and Warm lesser) I remember reading that on one of Smokey's solo Albums, they tried an original/Primo C12 on him. The Producer/AE said it was "so wrong" for his voice! Chris P.S. My understanding is that the Big 5 would be... U47/U67/U87/C12/251. Klaus "won't let me include" the C37!! One thing I rather like about the Lawson is the option on the PSU to use less bottom (voiced more like a real 251) or more bottom (for use with their 47-style head). It's a very powerful switch for something so seemingly humble. On a side note, i'm saddened at the lack of M49 (and, if I'm being honest, the inclusion of the 87 🤣) in your "Big 5" list.
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Post by chessparov on Oct 3, 2021 12:41:27 GMT -6
I'm open to "correction"! (I really dig the FLEA 49 on Vincent's voice BTW) Here in Budget-Land, I'd like to try a TLM 49 sometime. One of the best endorsements of the Vintage U87i IMHO, are Karen Carpenter's sublime vocals. (from the legendary U87 stuck in Omni!) Plus I'm biased from on the U87i, from just all The Spinners vocals on their Classic 70/80's cuts. Similar tone to Bobbie Smith leads in "Soft" 2nd Tenor here. Chris P.S. That Lawson power supply-brilliant!
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Post by bgrotto on Oct 3, 2021 12:53:37 GMT -6
I'm open to "correction"! (I really dig the FLEA 49 on Vincent's voice BTW) Here in Budget-Land, I'd like to try a TLM 49 sometime. One of the best endorsements of the Vintage U87i IMHO, are Karen Carpenter's sublime vocals. (from the legendary U87 stuck in Omni!) Plus I'm biased from on the U87i, from just all The Spinners vocals on their Classic 70/80's cuts. Similar tone to Bobbie Smith leads in "Soft" 2nd Tenor here. Chris P.S. That Lawson power supply-brilliant! Yes yes, the bug up my ass re: u87s is mostly due to the crumby-sounding sibilance nightmares that are the 'ai' versions of the last couple decades. :shudders: A proper vintage 87 really does sound excellent, I will confess. I'd also like to pitch the brass-cap 414eb as an honorable mention to your list. But in all frankness, my top 5 would probably look something like this: 1. u67 2. u67 3. u67 4. u67 5. u67 🤣
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Post by chessparov on Oct 3, 2021 13:13:40 GMT -6
251 and brass capsule 414... Tubey or not Tubey. I hope Senor Heiserman someday puts out that Vintage style 414, along with the upcoming H251. It was a treat singing into the Vintage 414 body, that he had put his capsule in. My respect for U67's went up a notch, when I just found out the "Van the Man" Moondance vocals... Were all done by Yakus, on a U67. Also Elton's Classics/Justin Hayward's/Simon & Garfunkel/James Taylor/et al-of course. Special Mention to Stephen Paul's modded U67 for Linda R. Sheer genius! Chris
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Post by bgrotto on Oct 3, 2021 13:30:08 GMT -6
251 and brass capsule 414... Tubey or not Tubey. I hope Senor Heiserman someday puts out that Vintage style 414, along with the upcoming H251. It was a treat singing into the Vintage 414 body, that he had put his capsule in. My respect for U67's went up a notch, when I just found out the "Van the Man" Moondance vocals... Were all done by Yakus, on a U67. Also Elton's Classics/Justin Hayward's/Simon & Garfunkel/James Taylor/et al-of course. Special Mention to Stephen Paul's modded U67 for Linda R. Sheer genius! Chris If you've never had the pleasure of using a 67 firsthand, it's really something. They just never, ever, ever suck. You gotta work HARD to get them to sound anything less than excellent.
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Post by winetree on Oct 3, 2021 14:59:12 GMT -6
After listening carefully to some of the comparisons the Warm sounds pretty close other than a touch more harshness in the high end that I suspect can be tamed. My other thought after reflecting for a while is my room will probably be an issue more than the small difference cheaping out on the Warm will be. It’s treated but small at 11’x13’. I suspect I can pick up a used Warm for $650, maybe couple hundred in upgrades if I’m not happy I can sell it for maybe small loss and move on. Also I just bought an Audioscape 76A which helps everything sound better So if I may, let me expound a bit more on my experience...and take it FWIW. I've been down the path of buying and selling numerous mid-level mics over the past 15 years in search of eliminating harshness. Each time I thought/hoped that I could make it work. Swapped lots of tubes, swapped transformers, bought and sold preamps, and invested in EQ, compressor, and saturation hardware and plugins. All in an effort to fix the mic issues. What I've found is that all of those things do a great job of enhancing what is already good in a mic, but are not the solution to fixing something that is inherently a problem at the source. I've literally spent years experimenting, buying, modding, and selling mics that had some deficiency, all to the detriment of actually recording and completing projects. As you hear over and over, you have to get the source right, and that in large-part means the capsule. The problem I've found with trying to EQ harsh mics is they don't take EQ well. Once you start notching out the harshness, that attempt to fix one area only reveals hidden issues with other frequencies. Then you try to fix those areas. It's a domino effect that eventually sucks the life out of the recorded sound. Garbage in, garbage out. I'm not advising you on what mic brand/model you should or should not buy. I would just encourage you to consider the fact that you're already saying the Warm has harshness, and to understand that "taming" that will likely not be as easy as a tube or transformer swap. And to weigh how much time you want to spend on tweaks and mods and additional hardware in an unknown effort to fix perhaps the unfixable vs. investing in a mic that just delivers the first time. I hope this is somewhat helpful. Good luck on your journey! Goes to show a lot of time and money can go into trying to polish a turd. The money and time spent could have bought the real thing. You only have to buy the best once.
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Post by timcampbell on Oct 3, 2021 16:28:53 GMT -6
Goes to show a lot of time and money can go into trying to polish a turd. The money and time spent could have bought the real thing. You only have to buy the best once. Yes. If anyone is interested I might be convinced to part with my Ela M251 for 25,000 bucks
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Post by tahoebrian5 on Oct 3, 2021 16:45:59 GMT -6
I’m getting the distinct impression you all are not backing the cheap option😆 Just got some funds in so might be going back to my origin thoughts
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Post by chessparov on Oct 3, 2021 17:18:06 GMT -6
See we make it easy to spend your money! We may even get Tim down to $24,999. Chris
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Post by hadaja on Oct 3, 2021 17:25:47 GMT -6
Well dont take it to heart. Some of us have been through the same process you are going through. I remember a few years back the advice from someone who had been in the industry for decades with lots of Gold records hanging off the studio walls was to try everything, buy everything, listen to everything then after a while you begin to discern the differences in products and then you get a feeling of what you like and dont like in products. Sell of the stuff that doesnt appeal to you and buy the stuff that does. Does it really matter what other people think if it just comes up in conversation? But if you are going to ask for people’s opinion and then go against that in a public forum then some people dont take kindly to that. Buy the Warm Audio if you like, $650 seems good value but dont expect it to be in the same league as your initial ideal 251 you were wanting.
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Post by drbill on Oct 3, 2021 17:41:12 GMT -6
I'm holding out for the Heiserman H251!!! They knocked it so far out of the park with the 47T. Can't wait for the H251....
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Post by tahoebrian5 on Oct 3, 2021 17:42:12 GMT -6
Goes to show a lot of time and money can go into trying to polish a turd. The money and time spent could have bought the real thing. You only have to buy the best once. Yes. If anyone is interested I might be convinced to part with my Ela M251 for 25,000 bucks So my question is what is replacing the vintage Elam for you?
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Post by timcampbell on Oct 3, 2021 18:09:00 GMT -6
Yes. If anyone is interested I might be convinced to part with my Ela M251 for 25,000 bucks So my question is what is replacing the vintage Elam for you? It was just a joke about holding out for an original. I'm only selling it if I need funds.
I started another thread about this. I know that the wait time is impossible for most and a dealbreaker but 5 out of 5 with 8 reviews for a 251 that costs under 2000 dolars is pretty impressive
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 3, 2021 18:24:45 GMT -6
Well he could get a used Warm now and order the Stam ?
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