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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 20, 2021 12:11:49 GMT -6
There are several monolithic preamp chips that are really good sounding. The THAT 1510/12 shows up in some strips and is really good. It's the same one the SCA T15 is based on. Nice, clear, flat response while still having a richness to it. These are relatively inexpensive and implementation is straight forward -- hell, THAT even provides all the documentation/guides needed to turn these into full preamp channels.
I've been trying to figure out why more interface manufacturers aren't using these. Is the cost really that much?
Regardless, preamps should not be a bottleneck in the equation.
Some of the best chip based preamps I've heard are the T15 you are talking about, Sytek, Tascam HDIA, and the SSL ones that come on their interface. I also use and enjoy the Yamaha MLA-8. I don't think any of these are using the "ubiquitous" IC that most interfaces use, but I could be wrong. I still think a vintage-style transformer balanced preamp is a cut above any of these though, for my style. With a $400 lunchbox and a couple $200 CAPI pres, I think you can conquer the world if your ideas are hitting the mark. It would be one of the first "upgrades" I would mention to someone getting more serious, after learning the basics on basic gear. Those SSL preamps are surprisingly good though for a $200 interface. The problem there is the treble on that DAC was brutalizing my ears, so I can't recommend it for what I'm accustomed to. Didn't like the headphone amp either. For someone that likes a really bright sound it could be workable. But those preamps, wow, kind of great. Makes me interested in the SIX mixer or some of the rack ones they sell. Sort of on the punchy side of things, not as neutral as a lot of IC pres. I am holding out that the Motu M4 might answer this question for me, and that new Black Lion thing just got announced as well, although it's twice as expensive. I don't need these things at all, they just fascinate me. It would be nice to have a small interface to put in a bag though. I wish my rack of CAPI pres only cost 2 bones each. I'm jealous of you DIY guys. I just don't have the time to put into building.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 20, 2021 12:19:39 GMT -6
Yeah I hear you. I have a surplus of time and a low amount of funds so it's like that stuff was made for me. You've got a lot more awesome sweet gear than most DIY people though so I would be jealous of that, ha!
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 20, 2021 16:18:27 GMT -6
@bat Lanyard okay here are my thoughts: Contemporary rock and metal (I'm not going to say modern because that implies something else that's very commercial) is mostly low end and low effort. The VSTi drum kit and DI guitar stuff extremely low effort. It doesn't matter how popular they are. These bands often can't play or if they are established and have member problems, can't find musicians who can play the songs. That's happening to a friend's band who is going to record soon right now. Technology got better but the recordings got worse. These groups can't frickin play their own stuff together all at once and their stuff is barely worth playing. A lot of these bands seem to be really cover bands, which is why their material is derivative and lame. They often just copy an old band they like but make it more boring, tamer, and more repetitive. They need all the help from modern computer technology they can get and they better be recorded cleanly or with a vibe you've given them that you will be able to fix it up efficiently. This is where clean but with some vibe gear rules and API and Neve style things can fail if you try to get it in the box ready to go like a record because the band does not sound like a record. These bands aren't ready for the studio yet they're in the studio and paying to get their stuff recorded or have already recorded it and are paying to have it "mixed" when they should've been practicing and rewriting their material. Analog niceties alone won't save this stuff even if having a nice bus compressor or FET comp is useful. The drummers can't play to an kit miced up old school: two decent condensers for overheads, SM57 or something on snare, 635a room, kicks RE20 for real deal stuff, Beta 52 for modern, Audix H6 for boom click. They can't do it and need a ton of channels so everything is miced up so it can be fixed later. These are mostly bad musicians who refuse to go to decent studios or buy some decent mics themselves. The drummers, bassist, and usually one guitarist are typically not capable of playing their own material live on real instruments. If they record themselves, which they are wont to do, rightfully distrusting very cheap studios who can't seem to even get their performances in the box without screw ups, they mostly don't have the preamp quality to use a lot of good mics. Most of these guys are incapable of playing a midi kit too. Even that needs to be patched up and you'll be manually adjusting the velocity of everything. Anything gridded ruins the feel. It just sounds awful. Sample blending can be cool but can also kill drums. Amp sims and IRs all sound static. The best I've heard is the Fuse Tweed. There's nothing close for Marshall. Those all need a ton of work. As for digital low end, price and hype doesn't matter for digital. There are great plugins for 30-300 dollars. You just have to be sure to not get ripped off. PSP was selling one of the cleanest eqs around, MasterQ2, for 20 bucks a few weeks ago while the much worse PA Amek 200 was 200 bucks. I also like the 70s preamp in the Infinistrip more than the Lindell 80 drive but the bus is cool. Slick EQ GE and M are dirt cheap and have way more vibe than the Plugin Allance EQs. Their Dangerous and Bettermaker EQs are clean. There are no harmonics. The Burr Brown sound in everything Dangerous is just not there at all. All of these opamp distortions and most old solid state like API, are not component modeled really at all. The Amek 200 THD seems to be a chebyshev third order and a non-oversampled soft clipper of some kind in the Amek most API type plugs, including the Lindell 50, are some kind of assymetrical fold. The VQA-154 seems to be too but it sounds more 70s and less like modern, almost band-passed API sound. Compare APIish plugs to the Nevey plugs, and they're usually just low end. You really have to do your homework with everything digital, use the demo period wisely, and figure out what you're doing to the sound to get repeatable results. It's not correlated to how much you spend at all given that the Tokyo Dawn suite is 260 euros and one of the best audio purchases around. HMmmm... Bob C and I haver a somewhat unusual and perhaps outmoded and arcane way of writing songs - we use guitars and paper. The closest that a computer gets to our writing process is use as a glorified typewriter with as "save" function.
I don't understand people who use a computer to write. (Of course I am admittedly old and crotchety.) To me doing actual writing on the computer allows the computer to intrude on the process.
ARRANGING is different. But you do the arranging AFTER writing the song.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 20, 2021 16:32:56 GMT -6
Some of the best chip based preamps I've heard are the T15 you are talking about, Sytek, Tascam HDIA, and the SSL ones that come on their interface. I also use and enjoy the Yamaha MLA-8. I don't think any of these are using the "ubiquitous" IC that most interfaces use, but I could be wrong. I still think a vintage-style transformer balanced preamp is a cut above any of these though, for my style. With a $400 lunchbox and a couple $200 CAPI pres, I think you can conquer the world if your ideas are hitting the mark. It would be one of the first "upgrades" I would mention to someone getting more serious, after learning the basics on basic gear. Those SSL preamps are surprisingly good though for a $200 interface. The problem there is the treble on that DAC was brutalizing my ears, so I can't recommend it for what I'm accustomed to. Didn't like the headphone amp either. For someone that likes a really bright sound it could be workable. But those preamps, wow, kind of great. Makes me interested in the SIX mixer or some of the rack ones they sell. Sort of on the punchy side of things, not as neutral as a lot of IC pres. I am holding out that the Motu M4 might answer this question for me, and that new Black Lion thing just got announced as well, although it's twice as expensive. I don't need these things at all, they just fascinate me. It would be nice to have a small interface to put in a bag though. I wish my rack of CAPI pres only cost 2 bones each. I'm jealous of you DIY guys. I just don't have the time to put into building. When I was younger there wasn't much great DIY stuff around, but now there are tons of it. Unfortunately now my soldering hand shakes uncontrollably when try to do precision things.
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Post by plinker on Jan 20, 2021 17:01:31 GMT -6
I wish my rack of CAPI pres only cost 2 bones each. I'm jealous of you DIY guys. I just don't have the time to put into building. When I was younger there wasn't much great DIY stuff around, but now there are tons of it. Unfortunately now my soldering hand shakes uncontrollably when try to do precision things. I think the DIY and kit industry is fantastic! I've been into it for awhile -- as one can tell looking at my cluttered workbench of unfinished projects.
In 2005, I didn't forsee the DIY world generating companies like DIYRE, Heiserman, Audioscape and Iron Age Audio. Of course, the latter aren't DIY, but I think younger folks have used GroupDIY (and the larger 'Maker Movement') as a launch-pad for their own audio companies and endeavors.
-- apologies if AS and IAA weren't inspired by GroupDIY or the DIY community.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jan 20, 2021 21:30:50 GMT -6
@bat Lanyard okay here are my thoughts: Contemporary rock and metal (I'm not going to say modern because that implies something else that's very commercial) is mostly low end and low effort. The VSTi drum kit and DI guitar stuff extremely low effort. It doesn't matter how popular they are. These bands often can't play or if they are established and have member problems, can't find musicians who can play the songs. That's happening to a friend's band who is going to record soon right now. Technology got better but the recordings got worse. These groups can't frickin play their own stuff together all at once and their stuff is barely worth playing. A lot of these bands seem to be really cover bands, which is why their material is derivative and lame. They often just copy an old band they like but make it more boring, tamer, and more repetitive. They need all the help from modern computer technology they can get and they better be recorded cleanly or with a vibe you've given them that you will be able to fix it up efficiently. This is where clean but with some vibe gear rules and API and Neve style things can fail if you try to get it in the box ready to go like a record because the band does not sound like a record. These bands aren't ready for the studio yet they're in the studio and paying to get their stuff recorded or have already recorded it and are paying to have it "mixed" when they should've been practicing and rewriting their material. Analog niceties alone won't save this stuff even if having a nice bus compressor or FET comp is useful. The drummers can't play to an kit miced up old school: two decent condensers for overheads, SM57 or something on snare, 635a room, kicks RE20 for real deal stuff, Beta 52 for modern, Audix H6 for boom click. They can't do it and need a ton of channels so everything is miced up so it can be fixed later. These are mostly bad musicians who refuse to go to decent studios or buy some decent mics themselves. The drummers, bassist, and usually one guitarist are typically not capable of playing their own material live on real instruments. If they record themselves, which they are wont to do, rightfully distrusting very cheap studios who can't seem to even get their performances in the box without screw ups, they mostly don't have the preamp quality to use a lot of good mics. Most of these guys are incapable of playing a midi kit too. Even that needs to be patched up and you'll be manually adjusting the velocity of everything. Anything gridded ruins the feel. It just sounds awful. Sample blending can be cool but can also kill drums. Amp sims and IRs all sound static. The best I've heard is the Fuse Tweed. There's nothing close for Marshall. Those all need a ton of work. As for digital low end, price and hype doesn't matter for digital. There are great plugins for 30-300 dollars. You just have to be sure to not get ripped off. PSP was selling one of the cleanest eqs around, MasterQ2, for 20 bucks a few weeks ago while the much worse PA Amek 200 was 200 bucks. I also like the 70s preamp in the Infinistrip more than the Lindell 80 drive but the bus is cool. Slick EQ GE and M are dirt cheap and have way more vibe than the Plugin Allance EQs. Their Dangerous and Bettermaker EQs are clean. There are no harmonics. The Burr Brown sound in everything Dangerous is just not there at all. All of these opamp distortions and most old solid state like API, are not component modeled really at all. The Amek 200 THD seems to be a chebyshev third order and a non-oversampled soft clipper of some kind in the Amek most API type plugs, including the Lindell 50, are some kind of assymetrical fold. The VQA-154 seems to be too but it sounds more 70s and less like modern, almost band-passed API sound. Compare APIish plugs to the Nevey plugs, and they're usually just low end. You really have to do your homework with everything digital, use the demo period wisely, and figure out what you're doing to the sound to get repeatable results. It's not correlated to how much you spend at all given that the Tokyo Dawn suite is 260 euros and one of the best audio purchases around. Dan, sorry I missed the post (might have been that space in the @-name) but I've enjoyed reading your posts, much more since the Zoom hangout. With your post, I think we're still talking about the same thing that needs to be there, the performance. And that's certainly no headline. Definitely agree on the all-things-digital homework. I have it, use it. Never gotten along with the Tokyo Dawn stuff, but that's just me, most likely. Everyone else seems to love it. I guess my point in responding is that I agree with your spirit and enjoy your comments, and we are all, always, searching to make the sounds in our head get out. Depending on genre, the toolset is probably different across them.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 20, 2021 22:01:11 GMT -6
The more serious an artist is about their career, the more they care about my gear. The most experienced and successful artists I’ve worked with absolutely know great gear and it matters to them. If an artist doesn’t know one lick about gear, then I know (generally, not always) that they don’t have a clue and are green. In 25 years, the latter is mostly what I've experienced. They might be impressed by shiny things, and they might know instruments and amps, but they don't know mics and gear other than 57's and 58's and their practice PA. I can remember too many I couldn't get to TUNE their guitars! Or tune them to a standard. It's fun watching people try to tune for overdubs in these cases.....not.... All you can do is tell them, unless you want to fire them as clients! I remember a client way back wanting to sound like a Lyle Lovett record. They put on the song....it's acoustic and vocal. It's Lyle in front of a single mic. "Bring me Lyle Lovett and let's do this!"
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Post by Ward on Jan 21, 2021 11:37:14 GMT -6
All you can do is tell them, unless you want to fire them as clients! I did that twice this week. Amateur hour is not where I want to be. Take the vanity projects elsewhere, and leave me be. The price for doing stuff like that is just far too high in the long run. JMHO YMMV
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 21, 2021 17:22:27 GMT -6
All you can do is tell them, unless you want to fire them as clients! I did that twice this week. Amateur hour is not where I want to be. Take the vanity projects elsewhere, and leave me be. The price for doing stuff like that is just far too high in the long run. JMHO YMMV I had a similar situation where I was told the studio and my rate together cost too much. Okay... at the same time the one man band fella would never come to the studio prepared. I laid out the plan that he needed to have his parts and amp tones dialed before he came to record - and hey guess what, he never did! It would always turn into a noodling session which I absolutely abhor. I would suggest session players to play drums, bass, perc, keys, etc. but they always “cost too much”. So he’d get local dudes to come in and hack away at parts that I’d eventually have to sit around and fix for hours on end until they were to his liking. One day he texts me that he found a studio that was less than half what I was charging. I think he was expecting me to cut my rate in half. Instead I said “okay great!” And send him his hard drive. I don’t have the want or the time for that nonsense. It wasn’t exactly Dark Side of the Moon either haha
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Post by Ward on Jan 22, 2021 9:35:08 GMT -6
I did that twice this week. Amateur hour is not where I want to be. Take the vanity projects elsewhere, and leave me be. The price for doing stuff like that is just far too high in the long run. JMHO YMMV I had a similar situation where I was told the studio and my rate together cost too much. Okay... at the same time the one man band fella would never come to the studio prepared. I laid out the plan that he needed to have his parts and amp tones dialed before he came to record - and hey guess what, he never did! It would always turn into a noodling session which I absolutely abhor. I would suggest session players to play drums, bass, perc, keys, etc. but they always “cost too much”. So he’d get local dudes to come in and hack away at parts that I’d eventually have to sit around and fix for hours on end until they were to his liking. One day he texts me that he found a studio that was less than half what I was charging. I think he was expecting me to cut my rate in half. Instead I said “okay great!” And send him his hard drive. I don’t have the want or the time for that nonsense. It wasn’t exactly Dark Side of the Moon either haha These are 'clients' who are often 'musical genii' but can't figure out a DAW or a chart or an arrangement and think vocal distortion can be undone in a mix. And expect a Lord-Alge style mix including all edits and comps for $100 a song.
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Post by teejay on Jan 22, 2021 11:48:19 GMT -6
I had a similar situation... These are 'clients' who are often 'musical genii' but can't figure out a DAW or a chart or an arrangement and think vocal distortion can be undone in a mix. And expect a Lord-Alge style mix including all edits and comps for $100 a song. ...and right now you can get the CLA Signature Series for $68.99 from Waves...just throw your mix through his plugin presets and voila!...you've met expectations. ;-)
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Post by Guitar on Jan 22, 2021 11:55:50 GMT -6
These are 'clients' who are often 'musical genii' but can't figure out a DAW or a chart or an arrangement and think vocal distortion can be undone in a mix. And expect a Lord-Alge style mix including all edits and comps for $100 a song. ...and right now you can get the CLA Signature Series for $68.99 from Waves...just throw your mix through his plugin presets and voila!...you've met expectations. ;-) I think Waves could team up with iZotope and make a "CLA Robot" with some crazy cartoon GUI, the computer will do all the mix moves for you, maybe it could have some catch phrase about you have the keys to the Lamborghini or a few of the other ones. That would be fun and it would piss people off. Then you can upload to Landr or whatever for the master, dump onto the streaming abyss. We're just a few small steps away from this utopia.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 22, 2021 12:19:31 GMT -6
Guitar Maybe like Neutron, except with precise emus of all of CLA's gear and an automated mixing process based on analyses of hundreds of CLA mixes. Then processed by a proprietary Ted Jensen MasterMind FX® AI mastering module, where you get to choose between two loudness targets: American Idiot and Death Magnetic. Not even kidding when I say I would use something like that. Zero shame. I use the signature series stuff all the time. It sounds good.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 22, 2021 12:22:53 GMT -6
Guitar Maybe like Neutron, except with precise emus of all of CLA's gear and an automated mixing process based on analyses of hundreds of CLA mixes. Then processed by a proprietary Ted Jensen MasterMind FX® AI mastering module, where you get to choose between two loudness targets: American Idiot and Death Magnetic. Not even kidding when I say I would use something like that. Zero shame. I use the signature series stuff all the time. It sounds good. I think that's a great idea. You could have a hardware control surface too, with just one knob for "MORE" no less, you always want more. And a slot to put in quarters, the quarters will go directly to Chris' bank account. 25 cents per song. Maybe you'll get 2 cents in your end of life check from Spotify.
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Post by Ward on Jan 22, 2021 12:22:54 GMT -6
I think Waves could team up with iZotope and make a "CLA Robot" with some crazy cartoon GUI, the computer will do all the mix moves for you, maybe it could have some catch phrase about you have the keys to the Lamborghini or a few of the other ones. That would be fun and it would piss people off. Then you can upload to Landr or whatever for the master, dump onto the streaming abyss. We're just a few small steps away from this utopia. Guitar Maybe like Neutron, except with precise emus of all of CLA's gear and an automated mixing process based on analyses of hundreds of CLA mixes. Then processed by a proprietary Ted Jensen MasterMind FX® AI mastering module, where you get to choose between two loudness targets: American Idiot and Death Magnetic. Not even kidding when I say I would use something like that. Zero shame. I use the signature series stuff all the time. It sounds good. I died laughing at both of these posts!! LMAO
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Post by Ward on Jan 22, 2021 12:24:13 GMT -6
I think that's a great idea. You could have a hardware control surface too, with just one knob for "MORE" no less, you always want more. And a slot to put in quarters, the quarters will go directly to Chris' bank account. 25 cents per song. Maybe you'll get 2 cents in your end of life check from Spotify. Can it have a side burner, to make algae tea or raman noodles or something?
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Post by plinker on Jan 22, 2021 12:27:36 GMT -6
I think that's a great idea. You could have a hardware control surface too, with just one knob for "MORE" no less, you always want more. And a slot to put in quarters, the quarters will go directly to Chris' bank account. 25 cents per song. Maybe you'll get 2 cents in your end of life check from Spotify. Can it have a side burner, to make algae tea or raman noodles or something? "Algae tea"
I hope that tastes as good as it sounds!
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Post by Ward on Jan 22, 2021 12:28:21 GMT -6
Can it have a side burner, to make algae tea or raman noodles or something? "Algae tea" I hope that tastes as good as it sounds!
Algae - it's pronounced like Alge.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 12:32:27 GMT -6
...and right now you can get the CLA Signature Series for $68.99 from Waves...just throw your mix through his plugin presets and voila!...you've met expectations. ;-) I think Waves could team up with iZotope and make a "CLA Robot" with some crazy cartoon GUI, the computer will do all the mix moves for you, maybe it could have some catch phrase about you have the keys to the Lamborghini or a few of the other ones. That would be fun and it would piss people off. Then you can upload to Landr or whatever for the master, dump onto the streaming abyss. We're just a few small steps away from this utopia.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 22, 2021 12:46:25 GMT -6
I wonder how Waves came up with the worst graphics ever...
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Post by teejay on Jan 22, 2021 14:04:18 GMT -6
I wonder how Waves came up with the worst graphics ever... The same generation content with crappy music is content with crappy graphics.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 22, 2021 14:13:08 GMT -6
Yes, and that generation is 12 year olds.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 22, 2021 14:43:05 GMT -6
Yes, and that generation is 12 year olds. I can't imagine being 12 and somehow convincing my mom I needed some $29 waves plugin. Back in my day, we just cracked that shit! 😂😂
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Post by EmRR on Jan 22, 2021 14:49:20 GMT -6
I once had a guy with a set budget for an album, he was gonna cut whatever corners to hit that mark. Turned out most of the musicians were his students, most could barely play. Except the quartet of symphony players he paid to come in. He handed them charts....they played....the charts were wrong.....
He hit his budget mark and stopped...then he put it out, just like it was. If ida known....
...as you can guess, he made sure to let me know later he'd found a better cheaper studio that knew how to record more as he liked it....just amazing.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 22, 2021 17:00:11 GMT -6
I once had a guy with a set budget for an album, he was gonna cut whatever corners to hit that mark. Turned out most of the musicians were his students, most could barely play. Except the quartet of symphony players he paid to come in. He handed them charts....they played....the charts were wrong..... He hit his budget mark and stopped...then he put it out, just like it was. If ida known.... ...as you can guess, he made sure to let me know later he'd found a better cheaper studio that knew how to record more as he liked it....just amazing. Sounds like a win- win for both of you!
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