|
Post by svart on Jan 19, 2021 10:27:14 GMT -6
I dunno, a lot of stuff sounds "good" on average playback, more than good enough to convince the creators they don't need to enter a studio. An uncomfortable truth. All too often it's pride in the "sweat equity" of DIY that overrides logic. I once had a band hit me up to record and mix a single. The main songwriter sent me a mix he did of his band as a guide track for mixing a song. He asked me what I thought of it. My reply was that it "sounded unfinished". He then told me (in a huff) it "took him a month to get it just right" and was somewhat unhappy with me during the session despite asking me tons of questions about recording and mixing. I never heard back from him again after sending the mix. I'm pretty sure the session was just a "look over the engineer's shoulder and learn stuff" because they were all DIY before and then again after this one session. They just released an EP that he recorded and mixed over a whole year and it still sounds unfinished.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Jan 19, 2021 12:06:13 GMT -6
I almost want to call some musicians "Low End" in terms of their musical ability or attitudes. But that's kind of raw I guess. Maybe "Novice" would be a better less brutal term. But my sympathies to all the people, so many, that have to deal with these people. As my dad says sometimes, you're doing God's work. If someone is screwing a professional though I would not hesitate to call that low end attitude.
It gets into a production and business discussion I guess. I have been out of that loop for a long time because it burned me out completely.
I want to talk about gear a little more. One of my basic questions is, "How low can I go?" In terms of price V. "acceptable" performance, that is, not needing "extra work."
For an electric guitar, it seems to be the $300-500 range. Usually, some work is required, but for a true $500 value, sometimes no work at all will be needed.
For a microphone, since vocals are the thing here, I'll say $400. Because that gets you a full priced SM7B. Unless you're one of those people that can use an SM58. You could also get a Warbler for $300 if you want a condenser, Ragan was mentioning those recently. I haven't tried one yet. You could also get an AT4040 or AT4050 in this range, and be "good to go." You can get a whole ship-tonne of hundred dollar mics for your "extra channels" that aren't covered.
For a plugin, I want to say $30. That gets you Waves, Plugin Alliance, PSP on sale, Klanghelm, Tokyo Dawn if you like those, and anything below that including all the free ones and the ones that came with your DAW.
The DAW and the computer I'm not sure about. Depends on how serious you are.
The monitor speakers, maybe $500 gets you a "good pair." But that's a place I had to go high end after my 10,000 hours were put in. These Focals sell for $2,000 now and they're passive. If you can truly hear what's happening, and you have some really good $30 plugins, you can make dreams come true.
The interface I want to say $200 now. You could grab a MOTU M4 or any of the other ones, and get to the business. I went high end there too, because my 10,000 hours of pain were already logged and submitted. I want to do things more comfortably with fewer pieces of gear holding me back.
You can ignore rack gear completely for this low end idea. You don't even need a rack.
Headphones I want to say $200. If you "search" that will get you AKG K702 or HD650 Sennheisers. These will allow you much insight.
Preamps I want to say $200 because that's CAPI money. Jeff changed the game with these kits. If you're serious enough about this business, you should be able to get one built. Unless you have some sort of motor problems, you'll need help from someone I suppose. Although yeah, OK, you have to buy a 500 rack too. Another $500 or so.
Better stop there, this is a long post.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 12:56:18 GMT -6
svart it’s the conflagration of the worst musicians trying to play the worst music plugged into the worst gear creating the worst problems. Some people will sound good plugged into anything. They’re the people who can get away with a live board or stock daw plugin mix down. Then we have the guys for whom you need to sacrifice some chickens to get the planets to align. I’ve heard some ridiculous self mixes and when asked, artists have made complaints about the engineer at the local studio not treating their band who couldn’t play their own parts in the allocated time like rockstars, not using enough automation, having too much bass because they only use bassy equipment at home, etc. Then the one done at a studio always sounds like a band at least and the self mixes do things like fader ride every drum fill and part to the front when it plays instead of eqing. Sometimes guys will high pass filter the mix, pay for a mastering engineer, and reject the master when there’s a bass shelf or boost.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Jan 19, 2021 13:14:41 GMT -6
I heard some Thom Yorke home demos and that was pretty humbling to me, for the "thing" I'm chasing and hacking away at. It's right there in front of the microphone. I am downloading the Buddy Holly demos right now, really curious about those. I guess this is not really a gear discussion but it's interesting.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Chase on Jan 19, 2021 13:23:24 GMT -6
svart it’s the conflagration of the worst musicians trying to play the worst music plugged into the worst gear creating the worst problems. Some people will sound good plugged into anything. They’re the people who can get away with a live board or stock daw plugin mix down. Then we have the guys for whom you need to sacrifice some chickens to get the planets to align. I’ve heard some ridiculous self mixes and when asked, artists have made complaints about the engineer at the local studio not treating their band who couldn’t play their own parts in the allocated time like rockstars, not using enough automation, having too much bass because they only use bassy equipment at home, etc. Then the one done at a studio always sounds like a band at least and the self mixes do things like fader ride every drum fill and part to the front when it plays instead of eqing. Sometimes guys will high pass filter the mix, pay for a mastering engineer, and reject the master when there’s a bass shelf or boost. Some guys DO sound good through anything. True. One of my teachers was the USAF Airmen of note guitarist for over 20 years. Played with everybody from Earl Palmer, Mundell Lowe, Johnny Smith to Sarah Vaughan. He did a solo CD about 10 or 15 years ago at home DI into a mini-disc recorder with an old Tascam mixer. His playing is great so you don't even notice, really. There is a line that's hard to qualify between gear and musicianship. Some people just obliterate it.
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Jan 19, 2021 13:24:57 GMT -6
Pretty much nails it, some things sound great through anything. Like that viral homeless guy who was a former radio broadcaster, he sounded like a broadcast chain naturally through a phone mic. I have a close buddy with a similar voice like he’s always talking though a 47 and a tube preamp. He actually sounds like tube compression. Literally everyone just agrees to whatever he says, because he sounds like the voice of god. I find myself often nodding along with him before I’m like.. wait! Wtf is he saying? Ah man, NO.. I got seduced by velvety voice again, damn it. He can get away with a cheap USB mic for his podcasts. I know he might take over the world with a better mic but he doesn’t see the point.
Another friend recorded a whole multitrack with just the iPhone mic, laid down vocals with a 57 and got it mastered because they want it sound the best possible. [edit: just to be clear, I really didn’t know what to say. Neat-o experiment. Don’t sell your gear IMO. Download the Telefunken multi tracks.]
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2021 15:38:07 GMT -6
So, I sound like me on an iPhone, a Shure SM58 or a high end tube mic. It is amazing how clearly I hear my horrible singing on my newly acquired M92.1s. I think you have a very nice voice Gwlee. Chris
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2021 15:39:19 GMT -6
OK, here's my most recent Android cell phone recording... Chris
|
|
|
Post by gwlee7 on Jan 19, 2021 15:43:09 GMT -6
It is amazing how clearly I hear my horrible singing on my newly acquired M92.1s. I think you have a very nice voice Gwlee. Chris In a Neil Young doing an imitation of Bob Dylan smoking cigarettes sort of way sure. I certainly need to hone my singing skills and I do know that I can and will get better as I practice. It's not "low end theory" but the sentiment still applies to this thread. If you know what you are doing, you can get away with gear that you can not get away with when you don't.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2021 15:47:21 GMT -6
Hey they both sold a few records! (Am big fan of their Classic work) Chris
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Jan 19, 2021 15:48:01 GMT -6
OK, here's my moost recent Android cell phone recording... Chris that’s really good actually considering.. I recorded a rehearsal with musicians on my iPhone 4 laying on the ground in front of the kit years back. Professional Musicians asked which studios we recorded at and how we mixed it. (... sigh)
|
|
|
Post by donr on Jan 19, 2021 15:51:18 GMT -6
There is a lot of terrible music being made on great gear. John, what's the record number of likes for a post? I think this post of jcoutu1 is it.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2021 16:09:01 GMT -6
OK, here's my moost recent Android cell phone recording... Chris that’s really good actually considering.. I recorded a rehearsal with musicians on my iPhone 4 laying on the ground in front of the kit years back. Professional Musicians asked which studios we recorded at and how we mixed it. (... sigh) Thanks! Great story too. Chris
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Jan 19, 2021 16:24:38 GMT -6
Agreed, but that's a different discussion. It's interesting how a conversation about the quality of gear always gets steered to the quality of music writing or the type of music. It's almost as if people inherently know that it's not the gear.. The wall was never the gear. The gear doesn't make any difference. Yet the gear absolutely makes a difference! These days everyone has a home studio. Everyone knows what the gear is. Even if they've never been in the same room as a real Fairchild 670, let alone touched it they have some idea of what it is and what it does. Having excellent gear available removes possible excuses for why something sucks. Its additional resources. And generally speaking the more resources available the better the outcome should be. Fairly true of anything right? Some people find it inspiring to walk into a studio filled with anything you could ever dream of and have it at their fingertips. Even if you never use it, just knowing that its there could be inspiring. Yet, I've also been in situations where I'm producing and we're in a really nice studio and the artist gets kinda freaked out. Option anxiety. Comes time to cut vocals and woah, should we use the U67 or the Manley Reference Silver? Whuddabout the SM7?! That's what I use at home and it always works... That's when whoever's in charge of running the session needs to step up, make a choice and run with it. I have some friends in upstate NY with a beautiful room that I'll book when I can. Have a 32 channel Neve 5088, 2" 16 & 24 w/Clasp... ATR102, way too much outboard and they get locals who come in and say Wow this is too much. We don't need all this... they get freaked out by the available choices and into some kind of self defeat mode. My philosophy is that you don't need a lot of gear to make a record. But everything should be really good. Several years ago a guy that I've produced & mixed a few albums for said that I had become an anti-gear gear snob. True! At some point I realized that I'm capable of making equally terrible decisions no matter what's in front of me and so, maybe I should stop putzing around and just get on with the task at hand.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2021 17:19:19 GMT -6
I'll trade 2 SM7's, for that U67 and Silver. Plus $100. Cash! What do you usually run your SM7 through? Thanks, Chris
|
|
|
Post by spindrift on Jan 19, 2021 17:42:51 GMT -6
Ward of the state said it : The problem with Low End? It's uninspiring.Birthing music comes with doubts, reservations, fear and trepidation. We all internally compare our creative muse and music to others recordings or classics and wonder if what we are about to write / record / produce / mix will compare or perhaps even excel beyond the level of our peers. That is a very, VERY fragile place to be when it comes to creativity. And creativity is the essence of what we "sell". The grist for our mill. Yes, great recordings can be done with very inexpensive gear these days. But that's not even the question. It's not even a part of the conversation IMO. Is the inexpensive toy keyboard at a desk in a spare bedroom going to be as inspiring as walking into Conway Studio C, or Capitol, or NRG and sitting down at a 7' grand piano or 1956 B3/122? Is singing into a SM57 in your clothes closet going to elicit the same performance as singing into a vintage 251 in a dimly lit room at the Village? Will playing a $49 VSTI sampler give you the same inspiration that sitting down at a series II fairlight will? Will paying $100+ per hour and only having ONE more track (tape) make someone step up to the plate and deliver a more inspired performance that they would have captured with endless tracks in their buddy's basement? Will the embedded history at an iconic studio trump the creativity that you can illicit in your garage? Those are the questions serious artists and creatives should be asking - not whether the latest U87 clone is as good as a vintage 87. Everyone has to answer those questions for themselves. From decades of useful real world experience, I know what my answer is..... Inspiring to whom? Most clients don't even care about the gear as long as the result is good. Clients might be WOW'd by a lot of gear for a few minutes, and they might even feel intimidated instead. I doubt the actual feeling is as much "inspired" as it is simply "unconcerned". Seeing a ton of professional gear seems to settle worries about getting good tones. It's the visual link between "pro" gear and knowing that above a certain threshold, getting better tones is faster and easier. I recently had a producer lock out the studio for a week. The band he was working with was one I worked with many years ago and they suggested my place as an alternative to a more expensive (and totally booked) place. Why did he agree to come to my place? He "liked the gear I had in the racks" which he said made him "feel like it was going to be a professional place". He used a few preamps and my converters and that was it. Didn't even patch anything else up nor try anything else out. I suggested some things, but he declined because he would just do it ITB with his plugins instead. The more serious an artist is about their career, the more they care about my gear. The most experienced and successful artists I’ve worked with absolutely know great gear and it matters to them. If an artist doesn’t know one lick about gear, then I know (generally, not always) that they don’t have a clue and are green.
|
|
|
Post by plinker on Jan 19, 2021 17:47:35 GMT -6
At some point I realized that I'm capable of making equally terrible decisions no matter what's in front of me and so, maybe I should stop putzing around and just get on with the task at hand. GET OUT OF MY HEAD!
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Jan 19, 2021 17:50:23 GMT -6
I'll trade 2 SM7's, for that U67 and Silver. Plus $100. Cash! What do you usually run your SM7 through? Thanks, Chris Nothing I guess? I don't own an SM7. Why? Probably because these days just about everyone has one in their home studio... and most of the "pro" rooms I book also have one or two kicking around. So if we really need one its probably already available. I do have a couple options for that broadcast style dynamic, SM7 killers when I need it but an actual SM7? Nah. And the U67 and Reference belong to my pals in upstate NY.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2021 18:05:30 GMT -6
Cool. In a similar situation, as far as "access" too. Kept me from getting a U87 years back. Chris
|
|
|
Post by plinker on Jan 19, 2021 18:07:06 GMT -6
Preamps I want to say $200 because that's CAPI money. Jeff changed the game with these kits. If you're serious enough about this business, you should be able to get one built. Unless you have some sort of motor problems, you'll need help from someone I suppose. Although yeah, OK, you have to buy a 500 rack too. Another $500 or so. There are several monolithic preamp chips that are really good sounding. The THAT 1510/12 shows up in some strips and is really good. It's the same one the SCA T15 is based on. Nice, clear, flat response while still having a richness to it. These are relatively inexpensive and implementation is straight forward -- hell, THAT even provides all the documentation/guides needed to turn these into full preamp channels.
I've been trying to figure out why more interface manufacturers aren't using these. Is the cost really that much?
Regardless, preamps should not be a bottleneck in the equation.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jan 19, 2021 19:17:55 GMT -6
I guess it must have been the "Sources (including vocals)", on the infamous ART Tube MP vs. Green River Pre voting/shootout GS thread. When the ART Tube... Won! Chris
|
|
|
Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 20, 2021 6:08:42 GMT -6
Anyone who read JohnK's thread about the vocal track he received from a singer using consumer-quality gear witnessed exactly why better gear is.. well, better. Sure there are lots of folks that will continually promote the "it's the ear, not the gear" mantra, but the truth is that better gear gets out of your way and gets you farther, faster. You can bugger anything up, including using good gear and still producing bad results, just the same way you can crash a ferrari just the same as a kia. The ferrari gets you more performance if you can actually use it but it also doesn't limit you to school-zone speeds either. I don't disagree. I should have made the original post a little more precise. I think there is a minimum threshold for what is good quality. Microphones are extremely important to have higher quality. There's just no faking it with mics. But I guess what I was getting at is we don't have to break the bank these days to get to a usable level. The really expensive stuff is nice (I've owned and used a lot of it), but just isn't a necessity to make great sounding records these days IMO. P.S. Don't skimp on mics lol!
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Jan 20, 2021 6:59:12 GMT -6
In a Neil Young doing an imitation of Bob Dylan smoking cigarettes sort of way sure. We've all got our strengths! This might be yours. Some of the most enthralling voices out there are full of flaws that captivate me. Like Keb'mo and Warren Zevon (RIP).
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jan 20, 2021 11:43:18 GMT -6
Anyone who read JohnK's thread about the vocal track he received from a singer using consumer-quality gear witnessed exactly why better gear is.. well, better. Sure there are lots of folks that will continually promote the "it's the ear, not the gear" mantra, but the truth is that better gear gets out of your way and gets you farther, faster. You can bugger anything up, including using good gear and still producing bad results, just the same way you can crash a ferrari just the same as a kia. The ferrari gets you more performance if you can actually use it but it also doesn't limit you to school-zone speeds either. I don't disagree. I should have made the original post a little more precise. I think there is a minimum threshold for what is good quality. Microphones are extremely important to have higher quality. There's just no faking it with mics. But I guess what I was getting at is we don't have to break the bank these days to get to a usable level. The really expensive stuff is nice (I've owned and used a lot of it), but just isn't a necessity to make great sounding records these days IMO. P.S. Don't skimp on mics lol! I believe there is absolutely a minimum threshold to what can make a pro recording in a pro workflow. Anyone can buy enough cheap mics to find one that works on their voice, but buying (and selling?) tons of cheap mics to find "the one" is a losing deal even though it strokes the ego to feel like you're getting something for nothing (despite wasting time and money). As I've mentioned earlier, you can punish anything into submission given enough time and desire, but better gear just gets you there faster and easier.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Jan 20, 2021 12:07:08 GMT -6
Preamps I want to say $200 because that's CAPI money. Jeff changed the game with these kits. If you're serious enough about this business, you should be able to get one built. Unless you have some sort of motor problems, you'll need help from someone I suppose. Although yeah, OK, you have to buy a 500 rack too. Another $500 or so. There are several monolithic preamp chips that are really good sounding. The THAT 1510/12 shows up in some strips and is really good. It's the same one the SCA T15 is based on. Nice, clear, flat response while still having a richness to it. These are relatively inexpensive and implementation is straight forward -- hell, THAT even provides all the documentation/guides needed to turn these into full preamp channels.
I've been trying to figure out why more interface manufacturers aren't using these. Is the cost really that much?
Regardless, preamps should not be a bottleneck in the equation.
Some of the best chip based preamps I've heard are the T15 you are talking about, Sytek, Tascam HDIA, and the SSL ones that come on their interface. I also use and enjoy the Yamaha MLA-8. I don't think any of these are using the "ubiquitous" IC that most interfaces use, but I could be wrong. I still think a vintage-style transformer balanced preamp is a cut above any of these though, for my style. With a $400 lunchbox and a couple $200 CAPI pres, I think you can conquer the world if your ideas are hitting the mark. It would be one of the first "upgrades" I would mention to someone getting more serious, after learning the basics on basic gear. Those SSL preamps are surprisingly good though for a $200 interface. The problem there is the treble on that DAC was brutalizing my ears, so I can't recommend it for what I'm accustomed to. Didn't like the headphone amp either. For someone that likes a really bright sound it could be workable. But those preamps, wow, kind of great. Makes me interested in the SIX mixer or some of the rack ones they sell. Sort of on the punchy side of things, not as neutral as a lot of IC pres. I am holding out that the Motu M4 might answer this question for me, and that new Black Lion thing just got announced as well, although it's twice as expensive. I don't need these things at all, they just fascinate me. It would be nice to have a small interface to put in a bag though.
|
|