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Post by Ward on May 4, 2020 10:36:54 GMT -6
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!! Next, we'll have a serious pandemic with scary symptoms, like runny noses, coughs, chills, chest congestion and headaches. And we'll be cold. So we'll call it the common cold.
OK, back to our favorite hated SDC bashing thread! And Schoepps SUCK. IMO
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Post by mcirish on May 4, 2020 11:21:33 GMT -6
I'd love to skydive all the 930's out of a plane @ 35k feet. Usually, I agree with Bill, but in this case I can't. First off, the MC930 sounds nothing like a KM84. The KM84 or a Oktava MC012 are perfect on close micing a guitar or mandolin. BUT, when it comes to upright bass or violin (anything scratchy) I much prefer the MC930 to the rest. I've also had really great results with micing a Yamaha U3 piano with a couple MC930 about a foot off the floor with the baffles removed from the piano. Everyone has different needs and hears things differently. I think it comes down to finding what sound you want to hear. KM84's would be my first choice sdc but on an acoustic guitar, a modded MC012 is indistinguishable from the KM84. I did hours of testing and recorded an album with both those mics on the same source. There wasn't enough difference to be able to tell which is which. Off-axis... that's a different story. back to the MC930, it's not going to give you anything like the sound of a KM84. In some cases, it just sounds bland. But, on a violin, it is my favorite. The MC930 doesn't have the upper-mid bump that the KM84 has. That can be a good thing at times.
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Post by drbill on May 4, 2020 12:03:05 GMT -6
I'd love to skydive all the 930's out of a plane @ 35k feet. Usually, I agree with Bill, but in this case I can't. First off, the MC930 sounds nothing like a KM84. The KM84 or a Oktava MC012 are perfect on close micing a guitar or mandolin. BUT, when it comes to upright bass or violin (anything scratchy) I much prefer the MC930 to the rest. I've also had really great results with micing a Yamaha U3 piano with a couple MC930 about a foot off the floor with the baffles removed from the piano. Everyone has different needs and hears things differently. I think it comes down to finding what sound you want to hear. KM84's would be my first choice sdc but on an acoustic guitar, a modded MC012 is indistinguishable from the KM84. I did hours of testing and recorded an album with both those mics on the same source. There wasn't enough difference to be able to tell which is which. Off-axis... that's a different story. back to the MC930, it's not going to give you anything like the sound of a KM84. In some cases, it just sounds bland. But, on a violin, it is my favorite. The MC930 doesn't have the upper-mid bump that the KM84 has. That can be a good thing at times. All good stuff! <thumbsup> almost every mic has SOME kind of good application. Glad you found some good uses for your 930's! My main reaction was to the comment that they were better than KM84's on OH, which I've actually spent quite a bit of time A/B-ing. BTW for what it's worth, on Violin / Fiddle, I'm usually headed towards a ribbon or LDC. Rarely a SDC unless we're talking about section spot mics on a large section. I've come to the same conclusion on the modded 012's and KM84's. The 012's have a little something more down quite low, and the 84's have a better off axis sound for me. But close up, they are pretty dam close on most acoustics.
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Post by mike on May 4, 2020 18:19:24 GMT -6
Usually, I agree with Bill, but in this case I can't. First off, the MC930 sounds nothing like a KM84. The KM84 or a Oktava MC012 are perfect on close micing a guitar or mandolin. BUT, when it comes to upright bass or violin (anything scratchy) I much prefer the MC930 to the rest. I've also had really great results with micing a Yamaha U3 piano with a couple MC930 about a foot off the floor with the baffles removed from the piano. Everyone has different needs and hears things differently. I think it comes down to finding what sound you want to hear. KM84's would be my first choice sdc but on an acoustic guitar, a modded MC012 is indistinguishable from the KM84. I did hours of testing and recorded an album with both those mics on the same source. There wasn't enough difference to be able to tell which is which. Off-axis... that's a different story. back to the MC930, it's not going to give you anything like the sound of a KM84. In some cases, it just sounds bland. But, on a violin, it is my favorite. The MC930 doesn't have the upper-mid bump that the KM84 has. That can be a good thing at times. All good stuff! <thumbsup> almost every mic has SOME kind of good application. Glad you found some good uses for your 930's! My main reaction was to the comment that they were better than KM84's on OH, which I've actually spent quite a bit of time A/B-ing. BTW for what it's worth, on Violin / Fiddle, I'm usually headed towards a ribbon or LDC. Rarely a SDC unless we're talking about section spot mics on a large section. I've come to the same conclusion on the modded 012's and KM84's. The 012's have a little something more down quite low, and the 84's have a better off axis sound for me. But close up, they are pretty dam close on most acoustics.
I assume you guys are talking about the Joly modded 012's, has anyone done a comparison with that and the 3u Warbler C flat on acoustic ?
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Post by drbill on May 4, 2020 20:45:44 GMT -6
I assume you guys are talking about the Joly modded 012's
In my case, yes - Joly modded 012's.
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Post by stratboy on May 5, 2020 9:37:36 GMT -6
Since Joly no longer does mods, has anyone tried Bill Sitler’s 012 mod? I had him upgrade a 319 and it turned out nice. I’m curious about the 012 in comparison to the Joly.
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Post by lando on May 5, 2020 9:59:55 GMT -6
The MODDED Oktava 012's are the closest thing to KM84's that I have heard. I proved it with that clip that intercut back and forth between KM84 and Joly modded 012 13X's that no one could hear the cuts on. They are better than 184's for me. That said, overall, in a wide variety of circumstances, the 84's are still preferred here. But the Joly 012's are EXTREMELY close. And the top end is not smeary after the mod. But the LF is bigger on the 012's than my 84's - for better or worse. The 84's can pull further off a source, and can take bad rooms better. That comparison made me buy 2 012s from Joly maybe five years ago or so. They have worked brilliantly for me, both with cardio and omni capsules, so thanks a lot for that!
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Post by drbill on May 5, 2020 10:19:50 GMT -6
The MODDED Oktava 012's are the closest thing to KM84's that I have heard. I proved it with that clip that intercut back and forth between KM84 and Joly modded 012 13X's that no one could hear the cuts on. They are better than 184's for me. That said, overall, in a wide variety of circumstances, the 84's are still preferred here. But the Joly 012's are EXTREMELY close. And the top end is not smeary after the mod. But the LF is bigger on the 012's than my 84's - for better or worse. The 84's can pull further off a source, and can take bad rooms better. That comparison made me buy 2 012s from Joly maybe five years ago or so. They have worked brilliantly for me, both with cardio and omni capsules, so thanks a lot for that! Awesome!! Glad it was helpful. <thumbsup>
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Post by Guitar on May 5, 2020 10:28:38 GMT -6
Since Joly no longer does mods, has anyone tried Bill Sitler’s 012 mod? I had him upgrade a 319 and it turned out nice. I’m curious about the 012 in comparison to the Joly. Should be pretty much the same thing. You can also have anyone do it or do it yourself. IMO one of the most important bits is changing the capsule coupling capacitor to a polystyrene or something "good." The stock "cheap" ceramic cap is not going to give the right amount of clarity. Some of the newer Oktavas have been "pre-modded" when it comes to a few of the components you find in those kits. They have updated the build somewhat along the way. Not 100% but somewhat of the way.
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Post by EmRR on May 5, 2020 12:28:36 GMT -6
Since Joly no longer does mods, has anyone tried Bill Sitler’s 012 mod? I had him upgrade a 319 and it turned out nice. I’m curious about the 012 in comparison to the Joly. Yeah I have a pair. Never heard a Joly specific version. The major difference in any is capsule bias resistor then cap quality. They all move in the same direction from the original stock circuit, more similar to each other than to a stock. Don't know if the current stock are truly upgraded or not, lots of reports they are. Then there's the newer 012 preamp with pad and filter switches on the body, that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE HAS TRIED AND COMMENTED ON in the several years it's been out. It might be better across the board for all we know.
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Post by mrholmes on May 5, 2020 14:02:33 GMT -6
So far the LEWITT 040 cheapo arrived. Just had a few minutes with it.
I need to spend more time with it.
Its good and it works the dynamics well, but not as detailed and lively like an KM140. Everything else would have been a big surprise.
Very stable off axis I like this.
I have my doubts that EQing works well with the Lewitt signal.
Give me some more time....
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Post by bradd on May 6, 2020 7:47:17 GMT -6
For what it's worth, my SDC trajectory has been KM184s, which I sold to purchase MC930s and now I have a pair of KM84s. I don't understand the dislike for the MC930s. I've kept them even after acquiring the KM84s. The MC930s are a big improvement over KM184s and I continue to use them interchangeably with KM84s on acoustic guitar and overheads.
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Post by Tbone81 on May 6, 2020 8:55:45 GMT -6
For what it's worth, my SDC trajectory has been KM184s, which I sold to purchase MC930s and now I have a pair of KM84s. I don't understand the dislike for the MC930s. I've kept them even after acquiring the KM84s. The MC930s are a big improvement over KM184s and I continue to use them interchangeably with KM84s on acoustic guitar and overheads. Whats your opinion on mc930's vs km84s? Not necessarily which is better, but how would describe the differences? From time to time I get the bug to sell them and try to find a "better" sdc pair...but I don't really use sdc's that often and I got such a great deal on my mc930's that I'm always compelled to spend my money elsewhere.
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Post by bradd on May 6, 2020 9:08:44 GMT -6
For what it's worth, my SDC trajectory has been KM184s, which I sold to purchase MC930s and now I have a pair of KM84s. I don't understand the dislike for the MC930s. I've kept them even after acquiring the KM84s. The MC930s are a big improvement over KM184s and I continue to use them interchangeably with KM84s on acoustic guitar and overheads. Whats your opinion on mc930's vs km84s? Not necessarily which is better, but how would describe the differences? From time to time I get the bug to sell them and try to find a "better" sdc pair...but I don't really use sdc's that often and I got such a great deal on my mc930's that I'm always compelled to spend my money elsewhere. In my applications, I find the mics to be comparable in quality. I think the KM84s have an ever so slightly flatter frequency response. The MC930s have a little more low end (the most low end I've ever heard in a SDC) and a slightly harder top end, both of which I find pleasing. I'm sure the KM84s have a better off axis response, but I've never noted that to be a problem with the MC930s. I could easily live with either pair and not feel like I was missing much.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,014
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Post by ericn on May 6, 2020 10:22:48 GMT -6
Whats your opinion on mc930's vs km84s? Not necessarily which is better, but how would describe the differences? From time to time I get the bug to sell them and try to find a "better" sdc pair...but I don't really use sdc's that often and I got such a great deal on my mc930's that I'm always compelled to spend my money elsewhere. In my applications, I find the mics to be comparable in quality. I think the KM84s have an ever so slightly flatter frequency response. The MC930s have a little more low end (the most low end I've ever heard in a SDC) and a slightly harder top end, both of which I find pleasing. I'm sure the KM84s have a better off axis response, but I've never noted that to be a problem with the MC930s. I could easily live with either pair and not feel like I was missing much. But I don’t remember you lusting for the Beyers like you did the KM84’s ! I think it’s the harder top end, big bottom end and off axis response that puts some off the Beyer. They are good mics, just not everybody’s cup of Tea.
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Post by Tbone81 on May 6, 2020 10:38:51 GMT -6
In my applications, I find the mics to be comparable in quality. I think the KM84s have an ever so slightly flatter frequency response. The MC930s have a little more low end (the most low end I've ever heard in a SDC) and a slightly harder top end, both of which I find pleasing. I'm sure the KM84s have a better off axis response, but I've never noted that to be a problem with the MC930s. I could easily live with either pair and not feel like I was missing much. But I don’t remember you lusting for the Beyers like you did the KM84’s ! I think it’s the harder top end, big bottom end and off axis response that puts some off the Beyer. They are good mics, just not everybody’s cup of Tea. Yeah that's what's made them tricky to use on acoustic for me, but also why I've great luck with them on hand drums (djembe etc)
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Post by bradd on May 6, 2020 11:20:19 GMT -6
In my applications, I find the mics to be comparable in quality. I think the KM84s have an ever so slightly flatter frequency response. The MC930s have a little more low end (the most low end I've ever heard in a SDC) and a slightly harder top end, both of which I find pleasing. I'm sure the KM84s have a better off axis response, but I've never noted that to be a problem with the MC930s. I could easily live with either pair and not feel like I was missing much. But I don’t remember you lusting for the Beyers like you did the KM84’s ! I think it’s the harder top end, big bottom end and off axis response that puts some off the Beyer. They are good mics, just not everybody’s cup of Tea. You know me. I'm never happy until I spend more money than I should!
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,014
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Post by ericn on May 6, 2020 11:58:06 GMT -6
But I don’t remember you lusting for the Beyers like you did the KM84’s ! I think it’s the harder top end, big bottom end and off axis response that puts some off the Beyer. They are good mics, just not everybody’s cup of Tea. You know me. I'm never happy until I spend more money than I should! I know, and I promise I won’t share this conversation with your wife😁 Now tell them what you think of my Sony’s that I paid far less than you paid for the Beyer’s.
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Post by bradd on May 6, 2020 12:18:15 GMT -6
Those Sonys are definitely sleepers. I recall them having a very flat response.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,014
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Post by ericn on May 6, 2020 12:24:23 GMT -6
Those Sonys are definitely sleepers. I recall them having a very flat response. Yeah plus the off axis response is very KM84 like and they add just a touch of compression that takes the edge off.
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Post by mrholmes on May 6, 2020 13:46:06 GMT -6
For those who are interested in my LEWITT 040 MATCH TRY. I just noodled a bit on my Dreadnought @ 7,8 inches away from the 12 fret on axis, to suppress the bad sounding room.
EDIT.
AFTER I ABed with older KM 184 tracks... NO CONTEST Positive is the off axis thing...
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Post by Guitar on May 6, 2020 13:49:40 GMT -6
I'm hearing some sibilant top end / treble. Not that surprising at the price point.
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Post by mrholmes on May 6, 2020 14:24:05 GMT -6
I'm hearing some sibilant top end / treble. Not that surprising at the price point.
7 Inches away from the 12th fret my KM184 was pretty sibilant too. Not to forget I am 100% on axis. And I use a bright pick.
EDIT PULLED OUT SOME OLD KM 184 TRACKS....
You are right no contest...
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Post by mrholmes on May 6, 2020 16:00:25 GMT -6
I'm hearing some sibilant top end / treble. Not that surprising at the price point.
.... thanks for your words monkey....
Watched my savings.....
The WINNER IS......KM184.
The simple truth is that Quality costs' money. At least in mics there is yet no workaround.
Its just impressive how the KM184 captures a guitar, even if you go close.... There is no contest compared to my old recordings.
Just like you hear it...
If I remember right positioning was a lot easier too.... even easier than with my UMT70
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Post by Guitar on May 6, 2020 16:20:54 GMT -6
In the sub $200 price range I haven't heard a whole lot of great condenser mics. The KSM137 and Oktava MK 012 (used prices on these) stand out by far in this price range. I only paid about a hundred bucks each for my Oktavas.
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