|
Post by M57 on Jul 30, 2019 5:34:11 GMT -6
When an ess-y singer walks into your studios, what mics do you reach for? What goes into your thought process in situations like these? What variables do you consider when tracking more sibilant singers? ..or perhaps do you just go with the best sounding mic for that particular voice and deal with the esses later in the mix?
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jul 30, 2019 7:21:05 GMT -6
When an ess-y singer walks into your studios, what mics do you reach for? What goes into your thought process in situations like these? What variables do you consider when tracking more sibilant singers? ..or perhaps do you just go with the best sounding mic for that particular voice and deal with the esses later in the mix? I find that nothing really controls the ESS sound if it's going to happen. People reach for darker mics a lot, but you always end up with a muffled vocal and still end up probably doing de-essing anyway. I find that the SSSS are usually more of a resonance that forms between the person and the mic since the SSSS sounds a lot higher in volume but the waveform isn't usually any louder than the other vocals. Sometimes changing mics helps, but most LDC capsules are similar enough that you either have to change to a dynamic where the weight of the capsule membrane keeps it from happening, or you end up doing something in the mix to fix it. For me, I always go for the mic that gives me the most out of the voice, and I'll just deal with the esses later. I'll find the frequency and then slice it pre-compressor with a narrow EQ cut. The compressor will compress everything around the cut and you won't hear much difference at all except that the vocal will have less essing. This works differently from a de-esser which compresses the offending frequency, but I always find them to make it sound too flat when working and you get spots where the fidelity drops out while it's de-essing.
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on Jul 30, 2019 8:03:49 GMT -6
I usually rewrite the lyrics so there won’t be any sections with esses.. Then take 50% writing and pub fees.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Jul 30, 2019 8:04:10 GMT -6
jeremygillespie has the 'write' idea.
Sometimes ribbons, even brighter ones, will knock it back more than any other mic, but as svart said sometimes it's just more than one tweak can fix. I did recently use the U67 on someone I'd had sibilance problems with, and it did handle it better, but I still used some de-essing.
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on Jul 30, 2019 8:11:53 GMT -6
jeremygillespie has the 'write' idea. Sometimes ribbons, even brighter ones, will knock it back more than any other mic, but as svart said sometimes it's just more than one tweak can fix. I did recently use the U67 on someone I'd had sibilance problems with, and it did handle it better, but I still used some de-essing. I feel like the ribbon and 67 thing can help but if it’s a dark voice with esses you wind up having to brighten the vocal anyway and you wind up with the same problem. Sometimes if that’s the way somebody sings and it’s a part Of their thing you just gotta go with it and try to minimize as much as possible. I had one singer where nothing worked and I tried askeing them if they could back off on the esses a bit and it ruined the entire session. They thought they had something wrong with them and it turned into a shit show. Won’t make that mistake again!!
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Jul 30, 2019 8:16:33 GMT -6
I had one guy so sibilant the only mic that sounded kinda right was a Fathead ribbon set 18 inches out 8 inches above his mouth and pointed down at his mouth. THEN de-ess. Worked fine as it was rockabilly.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Jul 30, 2019 8:31:48 GMT -6
Just 3 little tips
1. I don't use anything with a Chinese capsule, at least not made up until 2019., 2. I don't use an overly bright microphone, and it's kind of hard to beat a U series or a ribbon, 3. a 22 to 30º angle back works wonders, also have the singer sing over the top of the mic, not directly into it. 3. And don't hang the mic. It encourages sibillance 3. a diffusing pop filter like a Stedman can help 3. I use a de-esser inline when it's still bad, and always use a de-esser plugin once recorded. B.I.O.N. pro tools stock de-esser is absolutely fabulous.
See? Three little tips.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jul 30, 2019 8:58:35 GMT -6
My sibilance "hot spot" is exactly 6.5 KHz. Surprisingly, my MXL's... V87 & V69me, handle sibilance well. (just a little de-essing) The U195 needs to be at least a foot away, set flat. With the U195 FAT switch on, 10 inches. (also slight de-essing) For no de-essing though, my (stock) Oktava 219 & 319, are the champs. Especially the 319. The cheapie "under $100" condenser vocal sleeper, AKA the AKG P120, works almost as well. Being in agreement with Bob Ohlsson over this point, never use a pop filter BTW-go Commando! . Other favorite anti-sibilant microphones (on me) include so far... Tonelux J37 tube & FET Soundelux U99 Heiserman H47 FET (or tube) Chandler TG (yes!) Bock iFet Sontronics Sigma 2 ribbon Samar AL95 ribbon AEA 44 & N22 Chris
|
|
|
Post by sirthought on Jul 30, 2019 11:41:14 GMT -6
I usually just back the singer away from the mic and allow enough air to break the ess down. Not helpful if tracking everything live, but it works for me on vocal-only takes.
I've never heard discussion that pop filters are bad. Don't want to detrack the thread, but I'll have to look into why that would be suggested.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Jul 30, 2019 11:50:59 GMT -6
Just 3 little tips 1. I don't use anything with a Chinese capsule, at least not made up until 2019., 2. I don't use an overly bright microphone, and it's kind of hard to beat a U series or a ribbon, 3. a 22 to 30º angle back works wonders, also have the singer sing over the top of the mic, not directly into it. 3. And don't hang the mic. It encourages sibillance 3. a diffusing pop filter like a Stedman can help 3. I use a de-esser inline when it's still bad, and always use a de-esser plugin once recorded. B.I.O.N. pro tools stock de-esser is absolutely fabulous. See? Three little tips. HMmmmmm. I dunno about some of that.
I have a chronic sibilance problem with my own vocal (exacerbated by my damn dentures), which I control with mic technique and placement for the most part.
1. So far my go-to mic has been a Pearlman TM-1, which is a "47-ish" mic*. I have not yet tried my Heiserman H47 on my vocal but am looking forward to it. Not particularly fond of the U-87 or the C12A on my voice. Used to use a Shure Model 300 ribbon, but it's a bit dull sounding compared to the Pearlman.
2. The mic is always hung upside down**, capsule no lower than nose level, often eye level, angled down toward the mouth but not in the direct airstream. I sing about a foot to 18" away from the mic except when dropping forward to take advantage of proximity effect on a low note.
3. On words/syllables that are particularly sibilant I briefly turn my head to the side at the sibilant point. 4. I NEVER use a pop filter, they're sibilance generators. 5. This takes care of 95% of problems, but very rarely if there's still a problem I'll use the DeEsser module in my SCAMP rack. If that doesn't quite get it I'll ask Bob to take care of it in mastering. I think that's happened once or twice. 6. I slightly modified my upper denture by cutting two shallow furrows behind the front teeth, using my Dremel. This helps break up the laminar airflow and particularly helps with denture whistles. (It's not perfect, but it helps a lot.) 7. YMMV.
* - USA capsule.
**- There's a reason for that, besides the fact that the TM-1 is a tube mic. The reason is that on some notes/registers I tend to drop my chin down, which would direct the airstream at the capsule if the mic was below, angled up. I pretty much never tilt my head back when singing, as that tends to stretch the vocal chords and cause straining.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jul 30, 2019 12:07:55 GMT -6
I usually just back the singer away from the mic and allow enough air to break the ess down. Not helpful if tracking everything live, but it works for me on vocal-only takes. I've never heard discussion that pop filters are bad. Don't want to detrack the thread, but I'll have to look into why that would be suggested. How far back would you say? I just did a track with the singer about 18" back and she still had a bad essss here and there. I tilted the mic and all that and it still seemed to show up. I added a pop filter and it still plagued me.. I just gave up and let her do her thing because it was starting to look like I had no idea what I was doing. this was on my U47 clone which kept a lot of the body of her voice. If I had tried this on my C12 the track would have been able to shatter glass but there wouldn't be much meat in the track!
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Jul 30, 2019 12:29:09 GMT -6
I'v tried a lot of things, including singing into the rounded body of the mic. Seems like it helped a little, at least. But the best method I've found is recent: I've been putting a heritage 500 73EQjr in the vocal chain since I got it and I'm still learning it. There are extra frequencies to the high shelf @16k and 20K. I think that pushing the input transformer hard with the mic preamp is helping, then subtracting some 20K makes the source sound thick and smooth and hides the spiky s's. But then the output gain I have to back down the level so it will record without overs. I've tried similar settings with plugins, doesn't work the same. So far it seems to be the best sound I've gotten with a chinese capsule. I'm also thinking if I hit the input transformer very gently, and open up the output gain all the way, its comes out way too bright chinese sound. Not sure if this is whats happening though.. more experiments needed.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Jul 30, 2019 12:37:06 GMT -6
I usually just back the singer away from the mic and allow enough air to break the ess down. Not helpful if tracking everything live, but it works for me on vocal-only takes. I've never heard discussion that pop filters are bad. Don't want to detrack the thread, but I'll have to look into why that would be suggested. How far back would you say? I just did a track with the singer about 18" back and she still had a bad essss here and there. I tilted the mic and all that and it still seemed to show up. I added a pop filter and it still plagued me.. I just gave up and let her do her thing because it was starting to look like I had no idea what I was doing. this was on my U47 clone which kept a lot of the body of her voice. If I had tried this on my C12 the track would have been able to shatter glass but there wouldn't be much meat in the track!
This may or may not work since it depends on whether the singer can make a (more or less) slight adaptation to her technique.
To wit, if she could be comfortable with briefly turning her head to the side, away from the mic, just when she's making the offending sibilant, it could help a lot. If you have an opportunity to work with her on it before it's time to do the actual tracking it might help her be more comfortable with it.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jul 30, 2019 12:44:18 GMT -6
How far back would you say? I just did a track with the singer about 18" back and she still had a bad essss here and there. I tilted the mic and all that and it still seemed to show up. I added a pop filter and it still plagued me.. I just gave up and let her do her thing because it was starting to look like I had no idea what I was doing. this was on my U47 clone which kept a lot of the body of her voice. If I had tried this on my C12 the track would have been able to shatter glass but there wouldn't be much meat in the track!
This may or may not work since it depends on whether the singer can make a (more or less) slight adaptation to her technique.
To wit, if she could be comfortable with briefly turning her head to the side, away from the mic, just when she's making the offending sibilant, it could help a lot. If you have an opportunity to work with her on it before it's time to do the actual tracking it might help her be more comfortable with it.
There's a good chance I'll work with them again, and next time we'll likely have more time to prepare so I'll give it a try. Even on their demos the sibilance was there, so it's definitely inherent to her voice.
|
|
|
Post by sirthought on Jul 30, 2019 12:48:31 GMT -6
I just did a track with the singer about 18" back and she still had a bad essss here and there. I tilted the mic and all that and it still seemed to show up. I added a pop filter and it still plagued me.. I just gave up and let her do her thing because it was starting to look like I had no idea what I was doing. this was on my U47 clone which kept a lot of the body of her voice. If I had tried this on my C12 the track would have been able to shatter glass but there wouldn't be much meat in the track! I would normally say that 18" would work. However, I have on more than one occasion recorded lead vocals at four and even six foot back. Depends on how strong the singer is and your room. I learned that Morrissey always stood about four feet back, so I tried it with an Oktavamod 319 and it was nice. Still strong presence.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jul 30, 2019 14:36:25 GMT -6
Yes, distance is your friend on most LDC's.Many times subtle, but a pop filter will change the tone a bit. One more reason to record, in a good sounding Project or Commercial Studio, for anything important. Chris
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Jul 30, 2019 17:50:15 GMT -6
B.I.O.N. pro tools stock de-esser is absolutely fabulous. Thought I was the only one!
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Jul 30, 2019 18:35:11 GMT -6
Obviously try and avoid as much sibilance as possible at the source (Coles 4038?), that aside, I have found nothing as transparent as duplicating the vocal track and removing everything except sibilance, plosives and hard consonants and then phase reversing/mixing the ‘esses’ only track with the original and adjusting the level of the ‘esses’ only track to control the amount of cancellation of the ‘esses’.
Granted it takes some time but if all other methods fail to work acceptably then this is worth it for the end result.
Also it allows you to brighten the vocals quite considerably by balancing the amount of dessing in conjunction with the EQ to find the sweet spot.
|
|
|
Post by hadaja on Jul 31, 2019 1:42:04 GMT -6
My sibilance "hot spot" is exactly 6.5 KHz. Surprisingly, my MXL's... V87 & V69me, handle sibilance well. (just a little de-essing) The U195 needs to be at least a foot away, set flat. With the U195 FAT switch on, 10 inches. (also slight de-essing) For no de-essing though, my (stock) Oktava 219 & 319, are the champs. Especially the 319. The cheapie "under $100" condenser vocal sleeper, AKA the AKG P120, works almost as well. Being in agreement with Bob Ohlsson over this point, never use a pop filter BTW-go Commando! . Other favorite anti-sibilant microphones (on me) include so far... Tonelux J37 tube & FET Soundelux U99 Heiserman H47 FET (or tube) Chandler TG (yes!) Bock iFet Sontronics Sigma 2 ribbon Samar AL95 ribbon AEA 44 & N22 Chris Hey there. I see you have mentioned using the AL95. Have you tested the Samar AL95? Has it shipped yet?
HAs the Toneluz37 Fet shipped yet or is this special NAMM type thing? Cheers
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jul 31, 2019 2:18:49 GMT -6
IMHO I have a fairly "quick ear" by now, and to be fair all of Mark Fouxman's microphones I tried (Anaheim NAMM) were all excellent-including the AL95.
Right now AFAIK Tonelux is starting with the J37 tube, for a while. I still expect they'll come out with the FET version eventually. At the time there was around a $1K price difference between the projected J37 tube & FET models. The FET target price of $1500, is more in my prospective budget range. Chris
|
|
|
Post by bluegrassdan on Jul 31, 2019 6:23:20 GMT -6
Address the singer a little off-axis, having them direct their airflow to the side of the microphone capsule.
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on Jul 31, 2019 15:19:08 GMT -6
AEA R44CE or R-84 works awesome for me on sibilant singers.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jul 31, 2019 16:26:11 GMT -6
44 is my all time fave! How close (in tone) do you feel, is the 84? Thanks, Chris
|
|
|
Post by reddirt on Jul 31, 2019 17:40:14 GMT -6
Off axis as Bluegrassdan has said and also Rowboats phase reversal is the absolute duck's nuts if you've the time - you can automate according to how much cancellation is required for each piece and also the original track stays intact.(Tks Rowmat one of the best tips ever) Cheers, Ross
|
|
|
Post by bluegrassdan on Aug 1, 2019 1:42:09 GMT -6
Off axis as Bluegrassdan has said and also Rowboats phase reversal is the absolute duck's nuts if you've the time - you can automate according to how much cancellation is required for each piece and also the original track stays intact.(Tks Rowmat one of the best tips ever) Cheers, Ross Wouldn’t highlighting the sibilant “footballs” and turning them down via clip-gain (PT) do the same thing?
|
|