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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 10, 2017 11:31:03 GMT -6
But yeah... I am about to pour what I currently have saved in the gear fund into these monitors and wanted to make sure I understanding what is going on with the amps and my options... and how they all differ... since being told the Amp500s aren't worth my time or money. I'm 22 years old (I was lucky enough to start engineering when I was 14 years old) and I am grateful to be doing this at all professionally / full time out of my own studio (in addition to out of one of my mentor's studio), let alone able to make a purchase like this so early on in the grand scheme of things. I also write for an audio magazine so its kinda my job to try to learn all of the ins and outs... haha. So I apologize for being so inquisitive and methodical having just starting to research power amps in general as of yesterday. 99% of what I have learned has been from my mentors... so I definitely get that. But sometimes, getting a mass opinion.. especially when it comes to a purchase.. is something I find beneficial. And I certainly trust RGO more than the other place. After all, that is how I was reminded of the Avocet IIA I am planning on getting. And what helped me decide on my Serpent Audio SB4001, for instance. Been there, at some point you have to jump! Understand that the Amphion amp is overpriced in the since that you can buy a Hypex kit for very little and even Jim Williams seams to like them. When you repackage stock them the prices add up. I still don't see the Amphions as a mastering speaker, but as a nearfield I get what people like about them in that role. For the money you won't beat a JW Adcom, it will free up funds for other things, if you buy cheap you can probably turn it for close to even if you decide it's not for you. Gotcha! What if I get the Amp500 for a heavy discount? There is a guy selling the Amphion Two18s and Amp500 for $5,000 total. I could ask him to leave out the amp though if he'd be willing to do that, and use that extra savings to still go with the Adcom if that will be my better bet even with that discount. Also, I plan on also getting some mastering towers as well in addition to the Amphions as nearfields. Maybe the top end Tyler's or something.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 21:55:02 GMT -6
Your acting like there are hard rules to this and there are not, it's all a series of trade offs and personal preferences. Personally I wouldn't buy monitors of this price range without hearing them with the intended amp in my room. Granted that isn't always possible but I would make sure my dealer has a liberal return policy. I know this is hard, but when it comes to audio, especially transducers you can't get what you want till you know what you want & you can only figure that out by listening. In the end it really doesn't matter what you monitor through and through is the important part. Pros don't listen to speakers they listen through them, it's about knowing what your speakers do right and what they do wrong. Learning monitors takes time and you have to be very careful and know the reality of your reference material! 1/2 an hour in a room with JK, Wiz Savart Jeromemason listening to live tracks and tracks I know taught me more about what they are saying hear than a year on the internet. Most of the mastering guys I know didn't sweat the monitors this much, they went B&W 800 , Avalon Acustics, ATC ,Duntech or Something custom. and learned the speaker in their room. But yeah... I am about to pour what I currently have saved in the gear fund into these monitors and wanted to make sure I understanding what is going on with the amps and my options... and how they all differ... since being told the Amp500s aren't worth my time or money. I'm 22 years old (I was lucky enough to start engineering when I was 14 years old) and I am grateful to be doing this at all professionally / full time out of my own studio (in addition to out of one of my mentor's studio), let alone able to make a purchase like this so early on in the grand scheme of things. I also write for an audio magazine so its kinda my job to try to learn all of the ins and outs... haha. So I apologize for being so inquisitive and methodical having just starting to research power amps in general as of yesterday. 99% of what I have learned has been from my mentors... so I definitely get that. But sometimes, getting a mass opinion.. especially when it comes to a purchase.. is something I find beneficial. And I certainly trust RGO more than the other place. After all, that is how I was reminded of the Avocet IIA I am planning on getting. And what helped me decide on my Serpent Audio SB4001, for instance.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 21:34:51 GMT -6
Your acting like there are hard rules to this and there are not, it's all a series of trade offs and personal preferences. Personally I wouldn't buy monitors of this price range without hearing them with the intended amp in my room. Granted that isn't always possible but I would make sure my dealer has a liberal return policy. I know this is hard, but when it comes to audio, especially transducers you can't get what you want till you know what you want & you can only figure that out by listening. In the end it really doesn't matter what you monitor through and through is the important part. Pros don't listen to speakers they listen through them, it's about knowing what your speakers do right and what they do wrong. Learning monitors takes time and you have to be very careful and know the reality of your reference material! 1/2 an hour in a room with JK, Wiz Savart Jeromemason listening to live tracks and tracks I know taught me more about what they are saying hear than a year on the internet. Most of the mastering guys I know didn't sweat the monitors this much, they went B&W 800 , Avalon Acustics, ATC ,Duntech or Something custom. and learned the speaker in their room. Right! Well... I loved the Amphions when I demoed them with the Amp500. It was only when people started telling me the Amp500 was a rip off that I started looking into Brystons... modded Adcoms by Jim Williams, etc. If anything, I am learning about the ins and outs of amps here now, since this is a subject I never had any reason to research or ask about before only having used Auratones and NS10s before as far as passive monitors... where the amp doesn't matter quite as much. I think I might get the modded Adcoms.... it is looking like the difference between the $3,500 (used) Bryston 4B SST2 and the $700 (including the mod) Adcom GFA-555s may not be great enough to justify that extra $3,000 or so. Just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be cutting myself short... cause if I am going to be cashing in to get the Two18s.. I want to make sure the amp is to that quality as well. Seems like the Adcom is though.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 20:54:03 GMT -6
Interesting! Well, if I went the Bryston route, I would likely go the full SST2 route. Would I see any benefit in having 500 watts per channel with the 4B vs the 250 watts per channel with the 3B when the recommended wattage for the monitors is 50-200 watts? Headroom headroom headroom ! Remember your only talking a couple of DB So the headroom increases with increased wattage... but doesn't distortion normally increase at lower levels if around 1/3 of the wattage isn't hit? But anyways... in that case, the Bryston 4B SST2 would make for a better amp then?
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 20:52:05 GMT -6
Interesting! Well, if I went the Bryston route, I would likely go the full SST2 route. Would I see any benefit in having 500 watts per channel with the 4B vs the 250 watts per channel with the 3B when the recommended wattage for the monitors is 50-200 watts? Is it peak watts or RMS watts. Normal rule of thumb is double your RMS wattage for the amp. It doesn't say! All the Amphion Two18 page says is "Power Recommendation: 50-200 W". The wattage I quoted per channel from the amps was all RMS though. The amp Amphion sells for this set is 330 W per channel... but again, does not say if that is RMS or Peak. Going to guess RMS for their amp.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 20:38:26 GMT -6
I'll put the JW Mod ahead of an original 4B on everything but the Quested low end! Pre SST Brystons have this weird thing in the low treble upper mids many call it a harshness but I'm not sure that's how I would characterize it, very noticeable on a true ribbon. Interesting! Well, if I went the Bryston route, I would likely go the full SST2 route. Would I see any benefit in having 500 watts per channel with the 4B vs the 250 watts per channel with the 3B when the recommended wattage for the monitors is 50-200 watts?
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 20:07:12 GMT -6
Wow! That is incredibly impressive. And the modded 555 sounds just as great as low levels as it does at high levels? That extra bass octave would be really great to have though... especially until I get a great sub to reference with. If that is the case, I am sure the SST2 line is incredible since the reviews are that the SST2 line is the best Bryston has ever had. I think I will end up with the SST2 line at some point regardless.. either now or later. If the 250 watts per side of the 3B SST2 would be enough ya think... I might just get that and save myself a future upgrade. I am wondering if there would be any benefit at all to the 4B SST2s 500 watts per channel opposed to the 3B SST2s 250 watts per channel when the Two18s recommend 50-200 watts. So I will either start with the modded Adcom and upgrade later to the SST2... or just get an SST2. Low level was same as higher level, the Bryston 4b extra octave was only on the Questeds. So besides on the Questeds, they sounded about equal?
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 18:38:20 GMT -6
Oh gotcha, then that IS the rack mounted version also. Thanks! So I will just assume both the rack mounted version and desktop versions are BOTH MKIs unless otherwise stated.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 18:34:51 GMT -6
Man, they sound GREAT. I am sold on that over the Dangerous stuff (and I looooove Dangerous Music), the Lynx Hilo TB, and even the Grace Designs at this point after doing my research I think. It was looking like it was between the Grace and the Crane Hill Avocet IIA... but I am a fan of Dave Hills work. Had a modded 555 next to a pair of Krell mono blocks everybody thought the 555 was the Krells, Classe seamed more mid forward, I will admit first Gen Bryston gave the almost an extra Octave of Bass on the Quested H208's but other than that the JW 555 is the dragon slayer! The only Amp that holds its own are BEL 1001's bridged that's with the Questeds TAD's Magnepans and various prototypes that pass through! I wouldn't mind a ConradJohnson Premier 1 on the Maggie's to make a bunch of recordings listenable! If Jim repackaged the Adcom in a sexy Chassis with cool fins he would be the darling of the Audiophile world! Wow! That is incredibly impressive. And the modded 555 sounds just as great as low levels as it does at high levels? That extra bass octave would be really great to have though... especially until I get a great sub to reference with. If that is the case, I am sure the SST2 line is incredible since the reviews are that the SST2 line is the best Bryston has ever had. I think I will end up with the SST2 line at some point regardless.. either now or later. If the 250 watts per side of the 3B SST2 would be enough ya think... I might just get that and save myself a future upgrade. I am wondering if there would be any benefit at all to the 4B SST2s 500 watts per channel opposed to the 3B SST2s 250 watts per channel when the Two18s recommend 50-200 watts. So I will either start with the modded Adcom and upgrade later to the SST2... or just get an SST2.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 17:38:05 GMT -6
Or yeah... like I just said to John.. if it would be a better investment, I could get a Bryston 4B SST for $2,300 used, 4B SST 2 for $3,500 used.... or if it is enough which it looks like it would be.. a used 3B SST for $1,500... or a 3B SST2 for $2,700. It looks like there are some pretty cool upgrades with the SST 2 line... including the fact that I don't need to hit 1/3 wattage to get the quoted distortion specs.
The Amphion Amp500 got its 500 watt per channel rating at 2ohm... which is kind of cheating, isn't it? Haha... since the Two18s are 4ohm, it would give me 330 Watts per channel. The 3B SST or SST2 would give me 250 watts per channel at 4ohm. Since the Two18s are rated to 200 watts at 8ohm.. is there a benefit to having an overpowered amp? So would the beefier 4B SST2 be better for them, or even the SSB2 with 500 watts per channel at 4ohm? The Adcom GFA-555 is similar to the Amp500 with 325 watts per channel at 4ohm. Again, it seems like besides select models like the new SST2 line, you have to hit 1/3 wattage or more to even get the quoted distortion specs... below that there seems to be more distortion, which is normally the range I would be using them in the most. The recommended power for the Two18s are 50-200 Watts per channel. Thanks again, I am new to the whole high end power amp thing. This is one purchase / category I have never really had to research until now.
Strangely, the 4B SST 2 seems to have half the distortion of the 3B SST 2. Both still bench test great though. I know bench tests aren't everything, but with very technical purchases like this I like to use them as reference. The thing is... if there is only like, a 5% or so quality increase between the 3B / 4B SST 2 and the Adcom, maybe I should spend that extra $1,000-$2,000 elsewhere. Or get the regular SST, though I am caught up on the whole 1/3 wattage thing which the SST 2 seems to fix, but for a price... of course.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 17:23:28 GMT -6
Which model Bryston / Lexicon do you have now? I may just put down some more money for the amp and get something I won't have to upgrade for a very long time. If I am going to be getting the Two18s... I certainly don't want to cut myself short on the amp. Lexicon NT212. There's a NT225 too that's the 4BST. You might want to make sure that's enough juice for the two 18s though. Oh, is that basically the 5 channel version of the NT225 it's looking like? Hm, I will see if I can find a stereo one. I am pretty sure anything Bryston 3B sized or higher should work great with the Two18s. Part of me wants to throw down $1,500 and get the Bryston 3B SST if that will be better quality than the modded Adcom though. Or even potentially $2,700 for the 3B SST 2.... and just not have to upgrade ever. Is there any benefit to a stereo power amp vs a dual mono one? Also, I am noticing a tiny glitch here. If I accidentally hit backspace too far when I am typing and the cursor goes back into the quote, it locks me into the quote section. All I have to do is refresh the page and be sure not to do that again though, so it hardly matters.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 17:15:46 GMT -6
I only know what I have read here about adcoms and I assume the II, means mkii. Apparently, the mki had a different design and I believe that people think it better. I honestly don't know. I'd ask Jim bet he does I have a mki 545 modded by Jim:it just sounds natural to me So you have the MKI then? Is yours a rack mounted version? Just wondering is rack mounted vs not is the indicator of the different marks... besides I see that the one MKII online is rack mounted.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 17:14:04 GMT -6
Buying any used amp is a gamble, the advantage of a Audioupgrades modded Adcom besides a great amp is that a talented tech is looking at it! And they do hold up their own with Krell, Classe Bryston SST! That is a great point! I do have a fantastic tech in town though worst case. So sound quality is what us going to be important to me at the end of the day. The Audio Upgrades one does look like an absolute steal. When you say it "hangs with them", so you mean you would consider them just about equal, or the Audio Upgrades for the price is close to the quality?
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 17:12:13 GMT -6
I am already sold on the Avocet IIA I believe! I am pretty sure that includes the same conversion as the Solaris... the 5th Gen Quantum. When I was talking to them at GearFest, I was told they have a new matching ADC coming out soon as well. Damnit...STOP Man, they sound GREAT. I am sold on that over the Dangerous stuff (and I looooove Dangerous Music), the Lynx Hilo TB, and even the Grace Designs at this point after doing my research I think. It was looking like it was between the Grace and the Crane Hill Avocet IIA... but I am a fan of Dave Hills work.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 17:09:09 GMT -6
Looks pretty cool! So is that the beefier version of what you have? The Two18s are rated at 50-200 Watts (@4ohm I assume since they are 4ohm monitors) per channel. So I'll go with at least 200 to be safe. I hate that the description on eBay says it is "functioning good"... like he couldn't bring himself to even say great.. haha.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 15:49:10 GMT -6
I appreciate all this feedback on both the monitor controller / converter and now regarding the power amp. Looking like the amp is the new priority for me to figure out! But yeah, if it is wiser to spend a little more on an amp and it'll make a significant difference vs the modded Adcom or Emotiva Gen 2 or Gen 3 (which the Gen 3 seems to be greatly improved based on both bench tests and listening tests I have read / compared)
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 15:45:58 GMT -6
Solaris is top top sounding unit. When I installed and heard it through my PMC super stack, depth rendition was much increased. Inner detail as well. Timbre was more accurate than anything else I have tried. Endorsed here. I am already sold on the Avocet IIA I believe! I am pretty sure that includes the same conversion as the Solaris... the 5th Gen Quantum. When I was talking to them at GearFest, I was told they have a new matching ADC coming out soon as well.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 15:43:12 GMT -6
Not certain what your concern is with William's mod, I had almost immediateturnaround ? Curious, when peeps say Amphion isn't full range how low do you need to go and are you including sub ? I personally think the Amphion Two18s are full range enough for most applications... though I will also likely get a sub to occasionally turn off and on for reference. The Audio Upgrades mod seems great based on what I've discussed with him... bringing the response up the 300KHz apparently (though I don't know the scale for that... if it is +-1dB, 3dB, 10dB, etc). Being that I haven't heard it personally though and am just going off of recommendations, I am just gauging my options. Buying an old Adcom off of eBay and hoping it holds up / is in great shape seems like a bit of a gamble (though I guess it is with all used gear / amps), though I am sure Jim would fix it up if that is the case, or my personal tech could. I want to make sure I am getting the best bang for my buck possible here, and not cutting myself short after getting the Two18s. If spending closer to the price of the Amp500 to get another higher end amp will drastically improve the response of the monitors... and keep me from having to upgrade longer, then maybe I will do that and get a more expensive amp from the start. But yeah, Jim's mod is certainly a front runner for what I am considering still. Originally, I was going to go with that or a similarly priced amp and spend the savings on some smaller stuff around the studio, but if I am better off getting a $1,500 or so used amp that is not the Amp500, that is what I will do. Also, is there any difference between the Adcom GFA-555 that is rack mounted and the one that is not? I also see a non-rackmountable one that says Adcom GFA-555 II on eBay, so not sure if all of that makes a difference, or if all that aren't rackmountable are the II version. I will also call Jim if I end up going that route. I was originally thinking a GFA-545, but I do not know if that will have a high enough wattage per channel, so in that case the GFA-555 seems like a better bet. Granted, I will have the Two18s at low or moderately low levels most of the time. I want to make sure whatever amp I get also performs well at low levels, and doesn't need to hit at least 1/3 of its wattage to get great distortion specs like many I have seen, including the Emotiva it seems.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 15:28:21 GMT -6
I had two Emotiva mono blocks (https://emotiva.com/products/xpa-1l) and sold them in favor of the Lexicon...I've found you kind've get what you pay for in amps...except for the Lexicons...which are Brystons with a Lexicon label. Which model Bryston / Lexicon do you have now? I may just put down some more money for the amp and get something I won't have to upgrade for a very long time. If I am going to be getting the Two18s... I certainly don't want to cut myself short on the amp.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 3:24:26 GMT -6
it seems that they have made a few changes on their gen 3 models so I'm not sure how they compare to the gen 2 models. SMPS and modular system.. I don't know but if I was you I'd stick with gen 2 Both definitely seem great. I guess I could get the XPA and then upgrade to something like the Bryston 4B SST2 in the future if I really wanted to as well, which it seems like I might not even need to. So here is a question regarding amps in general... looking at tons of bench tests tonight regarding THD+N... it seems that many power amps, besides select amps that are much more expensive... perform the best when they hit about 1/3 of their rated wattage and up. Since I will be monitoring most of the time at low and medium-low volumes.. and since the Emotiva is rated up to 490 WPC at 4ohm... does that mean I would be getting lower distortion from other less powerful amps instead?
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 1:48:16 GMT -6
I'll be there. Floating between the Advanced Audio Microphones and Wave Distro booth, as well as going around conducting some interviews with my cameraman.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 1:46:11 GMT -6
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 1:44:59 GMT -6
I've tried XPA-2 on amphion 18s and it slew the amp100 with ease. gen2 can be bought for around $600 and they can be sold relatively easily so give it a go if you can. It does 500 W per channel (4 ohms) btw. Reading up on it... that Gen 3 looks pretty sweet. $999... hmmmm. Still $800 savings VS the Amp500. The modded option would run me about $600-$700 total it seems... people want a decent bit more for those old Adcoms than I remember, haha.
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 1:29:24 GMT -6
I've tried XPA-2 on amphion 18s and it slew the amp100 with ease. gen2 can be bought for around $600 and they can be sold relatively easily so give it a go if you can. It does 500 W per channel (4 ohms) btw. I answered my own question as far as how many generations they have... but have you ever heard Gen 3? Is it vastly superior to a Gen 2?
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Post by topshelfmg on Jul 9, 2017 1:25:59 GMT -6
Yeah, the Emotiva is a good option. The Lexicons were rebranded Brystons. Actually says it on the back. The NT212 is a Bryston 3BST and the NT225 is the Bryston 4BST. Gotcha! What is the difference between the 3B/4B and 3BST/4BST? I was looking around last night and found some of each, though unfortunately, not all seemed rack-mountable. Well, I guess the Emotiva isn't either, so that isn't a deal breaker by any means... rack space is getting slim around here anyways, and I am going to have to stack racks if I want to make room for anymore. That Emotiva seems like a great option though, but would an old Bryston be superior ya think? This will be my first pair of passive monitors where I am realllly looking into the amp (not counting NS10s, Auratones, etc.. and even then, I currently have the active Avantones), so this is a subject I am not well versed in.
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