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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 4:09:39 GMT -6
ADAT implementation is not really trivial.
Wavefront/Alesis discontinued ADAT, too, so ADAT now relies on a smaller chip manufacturer in California that took over, if i remember it right.
Also, support for ADAT implementation for developers was always not too overwhelming, from all i know...politely said....
And - more channels can bring new technical problems for the design, like jitter induction/clean clock signal distribution to all channels, and similar...this is a minimal 16 converter chips design, in a superbeast configuration 24 converter chips have to be clocked (which i guess will not happen due to physical size requirement of the superbeast)... ADDA AiO chips are much easier to handle but are substancially inferior.
I don't expect the announced converter to be cheaper than ~1,500$ , and this would still be a steal.
The announced 8x8 converter would be a beast of a converter.
The AD seems to be excellent from what the owners from this board and elsewhere say, and i know that not only the SuperBeast, but also the simplest 1794a DA he has on his page sounds excellent.
I would like to see an 8x DA with adat. Channels for analog mixing in highest quality. To spread out 16/24/32 channels to a console...a dream. Even the single chip RM converters sound excellent and would be highest quality for console feed.
I just do not get around AES...
BR,
Martin
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 4:29:46 GMT -6
Also, i have to correct my information about the Tascam UH-7000 converter chips.
I digged a bit deeper into the design. While they used an all-in-one chip to feed the DA (don't know why, maybe implementation was easier), they additionally used a BB 4220 converter chip for the AD part - which seems really not bad from the reading.
Hard to tell how huge companies chose the components they build their designs around...
So...the AD part might sound better than expected...
Just don't want to let this stand uncorrected...
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Post by tonycamphd on May 29, 2014 8:47:11 GMT -6
ADAT implementation is not really trivial. Wavefront/Alesis discontinued ADAT, too, so ADAT now relies on a smaller chip manufacturer in California that took over, if i remember it right. Also, support for ADAT implementation for developers was always not too overwhelming, from all i know...politely said.... And - more channels can bring new technical problems for the design, like jitter induction/clean clock signal distribution to all channels, and similar...this is a minimal 16 converter chips design, in a superbeast configuration 24 converter chips have to be clocked (which i guess will not happen due to physical size requirement of the superbeast)... ADDA AiO chips are much easier to handle but are substancially inferior. I don't expect the announced converter to be cheaper than ~1,500$ , and this would still be a steal. The announced 8x8 converter would be a beast of a converter. The AD seems to be excellent from what the owners from this board and elsewhere say, and i know that not only the SuperBeast, but also the simplest 1794a DA he has on his page sounds excellent. I would like to see an 8x DA with adat. Channels for analog mixing in highest quality. To spread out 16/24/32 channels to a console...a dream. Even the single chip RM converters sound excellent and would be highest quality for console feed. I just do not get around AES... BR, Martin As of right now, the 1794a 8 channel AES is the direction I'm headed, ( analog 32x8x2 console) like u mentioned, smallbutfine, is there a resolution limitation with the Adat light pipe? There really is no simple way to implement a card and clock this way for 32 channels of DA that I know of. |
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 14:34:55 GMT -6
Quick heads-up for the impatient of you guys with interest... Beware, this is the "normal" minimum config DAC. Not the SuperBeast. Just a bare functional stereo DAC with one DA chip for both channels, National opamps, optical and cinch SPDIF in. No bells, no whistles. Still awesome sound. I have one myself. Readily built for instant purchase right from Ross Martin. On Sale right now: www.rossmartinaudio.com/index_files/Page727.htm |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 29, 2014 14:59:58 GMT -6
@smallbutfine did u c the post above urs?
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 15:11:12 GMT -6
tonycamphd: Well. You can feed 8 channel single speed over ADAT lightpipe. S/MUX allows to feed 8 channels double speed, i.e. 88.2/96khz over 2 lightpipes. There, it starts to get quite funny implementing different options of type of S/MUX. Because i found, this is sometimes differently implemented in converters and interfaces. Not trivial. E.g., i have a Swissonic AD8 that i can not get into the Profire Lightbridge in 96k, the AD8 sends a 20bit(!) double speed ADAT to the Lightbridge, that can not be recognized. I don't even start the explanation, why they chose to only send 20 bit in double speed while it is 24bit converters (and yes, there is one)... The Mytek 8x96 for example has a "mouse piano" switchboard, that i had to reconfigure, because a clock sending option was set to single speed by default (!). That for implementation issues and developer choices to be made when dealing with ADAT interfacing...not trivial at all... So, if trying to get 32 channels of 88.1 or 96 to the console, you need 64 ADAT channels i.e. 8x ADAT Out lightpipes. My lightbridge can do 32 ADAT channels i.e. 4 ADAT Out lightpipes... good luck finding a reasonably priced interface nowadays that does that, leave alone 64 ADAT channels... So i guess MADI might be a way to go if you are heading for a full console double speed. RME does a (not cheap) MADI to ADAT box, too. Clocking an 8ch DA is obviously no problem, RM does it in the AES already. Clocking more than one DA unit from an interface is not too special too, they can/should be internally reclocked in the chips anyway for best sound quality, i guess most DA converters handle it this way already... And, in my opinion, there is no reasonably priced solution for such a simple thing as feeding more than just a few stamps to a console in high quality right now on the market. The pure digital interfaces and format conversions are overpriced in my opinion. Very. I like to keep high quality converters longer, than the interface stuff, that can be declared "end of support" so easily by just denying to deploy drivers for the next OS update of the computer or the EOL of a computer interface standard... i guess you can easily understand this point after your last computer update and the hassle with your alphalink.....
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 15:29:00 GMT -6
Actually,
this is the reason, my 40ch console resides disassembled in boxes until i find a solution that fits my needs, too. Also financially...right now feeding the console with 32 ch. would be more than a few times higher than what i paid for the console. Even without the converter units! Doesn't seem acceptable to me.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 29, 2014 16:02:46 GMT -6
Actually, this is the reason, my 40ch console resides disassembled in boxes until i find a solution that fits my needs, too. Also financially...right now feeding the console with 32 ch. would be more than a few times higher than what i paid for the console. Even without the converter units! Doesn't seem acceptable to me. Mehhh... I agree, do u see any issue running 2 of those RME AES cards, with multiple RM 8 channel AES DA 1794's ? Gonna run about $5k, could still be my best option as of now. Could start with 16 DA's and one AES card for about $2500.00 and add on as $ comes in okay, the preceding reads like a "flux capacitor" geek question, if I ever read one lol! |
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 18:22:53 GMT -6
Ahm, well, tonycamphd, the HDSPe AES docs on the website say you can use up to 3 of the cards simultaneously. Well, if this is true, this would be 48 channels up to 192kHz. And i don't see any hints spreading out alot of channels via AES to different units, AES is stable enough for clocking really...no need for wordclock stuff, the converters reclock anyway. So, the answer should be yes. But remember, each card uses 2 slot spaces due to the expansion boards for the second 8 channel output. Then, you also might need or want the BOB-32 breakout box... Well, i just make a rough cost estimation for a 32ch solution.... Let's say you get the AES card for $750... ...and want the optimal AD as well, surely. 2x RME HDSPe AES $1.5k 8x RM AES 4ch. converters $3.2k 1x RM 4222 AD $3601x BOB-32 $300
+cable stuff etc. selfmade
------------------------------------------
Total ~$5.6k
for 16ch incl. AD ~$3.1k
roughly.
If you want to monitor, what got into the box as well, which I would consider, add ~$400 for a RM SuperBeast. (~$6k total)
You would lose 2 channels on the console, but you maybe could live with that...
Otherwise, monitoring with the consoles monitor out and do mastering in a later process, patching the mastering DA from 2 channels of the AES cards would be a good idea anyway...
Best regards,
Martin
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 19:07:45 GMT -6
8-)BTW...
If your console has no midi automation, i can propose you get 2x Hoef Audio HF-16 automix (would be 1000 Euros) insert based midi automation modules with DCAs.
Excellent stuff IMO...
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 19:19:06 GMT -6
(Well, seems like it's pretty obvious i have thought about similar solutions for myself for quite some time, too....LOL, and this is a config that is readily available now on the market...)
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Post by tonycamphd on May 29, 2014 19:44:19 GMT -6
Great stuff, @smallbutfine Martin! i'm probably just going to use my BLA FM 002 as my AD for now, it sounds extremely great, then i'll get a pair of 8 channel RM 1794a DA's with D-sub connection, wire everything into my TT patchbays, and use my existing xlr/line panels for hook ups. That should knock my price down to about $2,500 usd for 16 DA's and the AES RME card, then as $ comes in, i'll just add another 8 channel and AES card for $1,600, then finally a last $800 for the last bank of 8=32 channels of DA.
Then i'll start all over on AD lol
Still, these things are so the real deal spec wise, that $5k is very well spent, i'd have to go for Prisms to come close to these configurations, the PSU per card and 1 chip to 2 channels is ridiculously bad ass IMO, plus if latest and greatest chips come out, i suspect I could always pay J Williams or ross to update the units? Cant see that being necessary any time within a decade though..
Thanx Martin
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 20:50:38 GMT -6
Maybe you could ask RM to socket the opamps?
Would make later upgrades easier...
Just an idea...
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Post by jimwilliams on May 30, 2014 10:22:08 GMT -6
The opamps are all surface mount.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2014 13:14:36 GMT -6
The opamps are all surface mount. Ah, thanks for the information, jimwilliams ! In my stereo DA units i have thruhole mount components. I guess there is no other way to do it in the 4 or 8 channel units because of physical space requirements... Never got the chance to see a pic of the innards of his multichannel devices... Best regards, Martin |
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Post by scumbum on Jun 1, 2014 16:08:56 GMT -6
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 1, 2014 17:03:47 GMT -6
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Post by scumbum on Jun 1, 2014 17:26:39 GMT -6
John and his Ninja fast gear buying reflexes bought my DAC within seconds of posting . Its been sold . |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 1, 2014 17:41:09 GMT -6
shakes fists at sky "Kennedy!!!!!!"
dude, youz gotsta leave some gear for the rest of us to buy!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 1, 2014 20:20:07 GMT -6
Whomp Whomp.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 1, 2014 20:20:39 GMT -6
I've learned to be fast after the matt sta-level theft. |
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Post by deehope on Jun 3, 2014 19:33:59 GMT -6
What the connectivity on the 8 going to be? I mean the digital side? AES or ADAT? both |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2014 16:38:32 GMT -6
No, he doesn't have a AD/DA in one channel. I asked about that and he said that he doesn't. I have 2 units coming. One is a the 2 Channel AD and the other is the 2 Channel DA. I already know I will hate the look of them so I may look at seeing what it would take to put the guts in 1 box if they sound great. If they sound great, I am thinking of a 32 channels of them! How about a kickass case, dandeurloo? |
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Post by dandeurloo on Jun 4, 2014 20:49:53 GMT -6
Well, when mine finally show up I will see what I can do.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 7, 2014 13:20:19 GMT -6
Maybe something in battleship gray...big knob(s)
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