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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 3, 2021 20:30:45 GMT -6
Dan (obviously) has some extremely strong opinions on plugins (which is totally fine of course) but I don't tend to agree with a lot of them. I like TDR Nova for dynamic EQ, quite a bit. It's good. And I think TDR is a cool, small operation. But I don't think Limiter 6 or Kotelnikov or Molot sound super great. Certainly useable stuff, and I like supporting small devs, but all the hyperbole about "absolutely unmatched" and "destroys everything else" and what-have-you....ehhh, not to my ear they don't, at all. Plugin Doctor (apparently) tells a different story but that's not where the rubber meets the road for making records. Same with most of the Klanghelm stuff (another company I patronize and think is cool). And as for "broken", "icepicks", and all that stuff...sorry, but that's a daily eye-roll for me. As always, this stuff is subjective and just because someone has a great quantity of frequently stated opinions doesn't make them any more qualitatively valid. And as far as top-shelf ITB mixers "not knowing how to use plugins"...uh, LOL. That's ridiculous. And Dan, I mean this as no slight to you. You just proclaim a lot of stuff so sometimes it's good to contextualize it with some other views. I think it really all comes down to what music you’re working on. I honestly have no idea of what Dan is talking about half the time, because most of the songs I’m dealing with maybe have like 20 Tom hits total - at the MOST. Or a single kick each bar. Maybe 2. And my kick is mostly thump and not TIK. That makes all the difference in our opinions on how specific tools will live up to their reputations. You could talk about aliasing and side chains and whatever else for hours on end and Tchad Blake would take that time and give you a killer mix with whatever plugs he felt got him where he needed to be. Again, not saying he’s wrong. I just have no basis for knowing because I don’t work on the specific genre of music he does, and most of the points he’s making matter none to ALOT of music that is out there. |
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Post by phdamage on Jun 3, 2021 21:12:24 GMT -6
glad this thread was resurrected. The Sonnox sale had me curious about grabbing their limiter the other day, so i went down the forum rabbit hole and bought the TDR Limiter instead last night. Curious to test it out, but some posts on here have me thinking my regular ass brickwall limiter will probably stay where it is on my loud and distorted punk and hardcore records.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2021 22:06:06 GMT -6
On topic, I tried to demo Oxford Suppressor and it wouldn't even open in Reaper. I'm always on the lookout for new de-essers and this is disappointing  |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 3, 2021 22:15:09 GMT -6
On topic, I tried to demo Oxford Suppressor and it wouldn't even open in Reaper. I'm always on the lookout for new de-essers and this is disappointing I’ve really been enjoying Waves Sibilance over the past couple months. Nice to see Waves do something like this again instead of analog modeling stuff. Of course, you have to deal with all the Waves BS, but… |
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Post by Guitar on Jun 4, 2021 5:26:32 GMT -6
Sibilance is so good. My favorite, while I was using it, was Fab Filter Pro DS. Just effortless to use, totally clean sounding. Expensive.
Sibilance I got for zero dollars and have been using it for a year or two now on every mix. It's a little darker than Pro DS, a little more vibe to the esses, and it's more touchy with the detector. But once you get it dialed in, sounds great.
I got the free Analog Obsession de-esser in their vocal strip a couple days ago but I haven't tested it yet.
Digital Fish Phones Spitfish is excellent too but I mostly use it on drums and master bus, haven't tried it on vocals since I've had it. The "secret weapon" 32 bit plugin, I have it jbridged.
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Post by ab101 on Jun 4, 2021 6:30:49 GMT -6
Getting back to the Sonnox. I have the V1 limiter. Anyone done a comparison with the V3?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2021 8:21:13 GMT -6
Getting back to the Sonnox. I have the V1 limiter. Anyone done a comparison with the V3? No but I recently picked up V3, will report in at some point.. |
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Post by notneeson on Jun 4, 2021 8:29:37 GMT -6
On topic, I tried to demo Oxford Suppressor and it wouldn't even open in Reaper. I'm always on the lookout for new de-essers and this is disappointing I’ve really been enjoying Waves Sibilance over the past couple months. Nice to see Waves do something like this again instead of analog modeling stuff. Of course, you have to deal with all the Waves BS, but… Oof. Even after de-essing I was clip gaining outlier esses earlier this week. Not my favorite aspect of mixing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2021 8:57:24 GMT -6
I’ve been stacking de-essers. DeEdger (frickin incredible on spitty voices and cymbals), Nova GE, Infinistrip, Spitfish, DSM v3, Presswerk (only recently discovered how good the de-esser on this is from the programmer of Spitfish) etc. they’re all useful. I haven’t tried the waves sibilance yet and am disappointed in suppressor not running. The post Paul Frindle Oxford plugs have not been as rock solid as the ancient legendary ones but are still cool. Vox doubler to my ears is basically ReaDelay with some oscillators and a crap ton of latency.
I need to try the Waves, Fabfilter, and Unisum ones. Both Renaissance de-esser and Sibilance. Unisum might be great because Presswerk is so frickin good at it.
Oooh maybe DC8C3 is awesome at it because the saturation is so much warmer than Unisum’s Hygge.
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Post by Mister Chase on Jun 4, 2021 9:09:49 GMT -6
I have an almost final mix that I'm stacking de-essers on. Start with Fabfilter pro DS then gentle HF leveling with Renaissance de-esser.
Pro DS is nice but for some reason it doesn't tame everything I need it to. Renaissance is a bit more heavy handed but really a classic tool for me. It works much of the time.l especially when pushing brightness of a vocal for a modern pop sound.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2021 6:10:59 GMT -6
Oxford EQ and Transmod are 75% off at Audio Deluxe. Oxford EQ still has one of the fastest workflows ever. It’s almost the parametric version of Slick EQ for me. Or should that be the other way around?
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Post by tasteliketape on Sept 16, 2021 6:40:40 GMT -6
Hers a new de- esser there’s a free version. I haven’t had it very long but first impressions are good . Thanks techivation.com/t-de-esser/ |
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 16, 2021 13:48:55 GMT -6
I only use the Inflator for what it is good for.
In combination with other plugs on my mix bus, it's the one for the midrange fatness.
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Post by Mister Chase on Sept 16, 2021 16:32:15 GMT -6
I dig inflator. I used it a bunch on an album that I just mixed. Modern jazz. Helped create these very big thematic rises in the arrangements.
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Post by bgrotto on Sept 16, 2021 16:54:26 GMT -6
Anyone know what the upgrade cost from native to HDX is for the Sonnox eq? I'd buy native at this price if i could get AAX DSP for comparatively short change.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 16, 2021 17:06:31 GMT -6
Dan (obviously) has some extremely strong opinions on plugins (which is totally fine of course) but I don't tend to agree with a lot of them. I like TDR Nova for dynamic EQ, quite a bit. It's good. And I think TDR is a cool, small operation. But I don't think Limiter 6 or Kotelnikov or Molot sound super great. Certainly useable stuff, and I like supporting small devs, but all the hyperbole about "absolutely unmatched" and "destroys everything else" and what-have-you....ehhh, not to my ear they don't, at all. Plugin Doctor (apparently) tells a different story but that's not where the rubber meets the road for making records. Same with most of the Klanghelm stuff (another company I patronize and think is cool). And as for "broken", "icepicks", and all that stuff...sorry, but that's a daily eye-roll for me. As always, this stuff is subjective and just because someone has a great quantity of frequently stated opinions doesn't make them any more qualitatively valid. And as far as top-shelf ITB mixers "not knowing how to use plugins"...uh, LOL. That's ridiculous. And Dan, I mean this as no slight to you. You just proclaim a lot of stuff so sometimes it's good to contextualize it with some other views. Plugin doctor only shows aliasing in the sound path, not the control path. The biggest problems of digital dynamics processors are the oft random misbehaviors of older DSP because the control path is both aliased and not representative of the audio path. Try to take the stick hit transient off a drum with them and you’ll often create a weird resonance that wasn’t there before if not a click (CLA 76 and VLA FET. Some Slate plugs) because the sidechain can’t detect the peaks. You can’t even rectify the signal cleanly at 44.1 or 48 and threshold itself is basically a clipper. This is why plugin compressors used to sound so bad. Oxford Dynamics, Renaissance Compressor, and dare I say it Blockfish were the best ones looking back at it. Now there are a lot of digital dynamics processors that sound good at slower attack and release rates but fail horribly at faster ones. That’s the biggest problem: fast attack or release. Most plugs just can’t do it and collapse, eg The Pulsar plugs need lookahead, Trackcomp 2 can go haywire, all of the DBX 160 plugs are off but even the Waves one doesn’t sound bad per say. They’re not as gross as Waves CLA 76 but they still get gross. Most of the analog modeled ones that aren’t leaving behind too many random artifacts (you can even see them on render. I know seeing and not hearing) tend to sound a bit too much like clippers to me. — instead of /\ which can be cool, the Kush plugs are super cool sounding, but it’s an effect. Some have always worked with lookaheads like Oxford Dynamics but got dirtier. A few of the flexible compressors solved this without lookaheads (which don’t improve the detector) like Kotelnikov, DC8C3, Unisum, and Molot GE but you have to figure out out how to set them correctly to do what you want in terms of dynamics and may or may not like the sound. A few plugs emulate specific behavior of hardware compressors that aren’t as flexible and unfortunate mostly didn’t copy something as useful as an 1176 or LA3A because they’ve been done to death. The CPU use is of course rather high. The digital situation is the opposite of hardware where the best stuff is simple and easy to figure out without listening to a drum loop or vocal take for an hour. The not great hardware designs are complex. Digital swung the other way where most of the man hours went into making utilitarian multi tools they’re still tinkering and the simple stuff was seemingly made to make a quick buck on a regular schedule, taking advantage of how it’s an ersatz of a hardware piece. Now I seem to only use the multi tools and the emulations of the most out there stuff. Dan no ofending here, I like your comments. I prepare myself for an interviw with one of my favourite plug in developpers. One of my questions is.... why can a plug in sound great but I can meassure aliasing. Or this one. Is it enough to use plug in doctor to give a thumps up or down. I use SPL Iron on every song and I dont care for the bad measurements. I love Klanghelm SDRR to death it does the tube saturation trick for me. I love Airwindows BusColors to death. The compressors by FLA …sorry if thats not good enough, than which hardware is good enough. I did reverb AB myself and I level matched with test tones. Its just diffrent reverbs none is better just diffrent. In the end of the day I have a sound vision, and I use my ears to make a decission on the tools. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2021 17:28:34 GMT -6
Plugin doctor only shows aliasing in the sound path, not the control path. The biggest problems of digital dynamics processors are the oft random misbehaviors of older DSP because the control path is both aliased and not representative of the audio path. Try to take the stick hit transient off a drum with them and you’ll often create a weird resonance that wasn’t there before if not a click (CLA 76 and VLA FET. Some Slate plugs) because the sidechain can’t detect the peaks. You can’t even rectify the signal cleanly at 44.1 or 48 and threshold itself is basically a clipper. This is why plugin compressors used to sound so bad. Oxford Dynamics, Renaissance Compressor, and dare I say it Blockfish were the best ones looking back at it. Now there are a lot of digital dynamics processors that sound good at slower attack and release rates but fail horribly at faster ones. That’s the biggest problem: fast attack or release. Most plugs just can’t do it and collapse, eg The Pulsar plugs need lookahead, Trackcomp 2 can go haywire, all of the DBX 160 plugs are off but even the Waves one doesn’t sound bad per say. They’re not as gross as Waves CLA 76 but they still get gross. Most of the analog modeled ones that aren’t leaving behind too many random artifacts (you can even see them on render. I know seeing and not hearing) tend to sound a bit too much like clippers to me. — instead of /\ which can be cool, the Kush plugs are super cool sounding, but it’s an effect. Some have always worked with lookaheads like Oxford Dynamics but got dirtier. A few of the flexible compressors solved this without lookaheads (which don’t improve the detector) like Kotelnikov, DC8C3, Unisum, and Molot GE but you have to figure out out how to set them correctly to do what you want in terms of dynamics and may or may not like the sound. A few plugs emulate specific behavior of hardware compressors that aren’t as flexible and unfortunate mostly didn’t copy something as useful as an 1176 or LA3A because they’ve been done to death. The CPU use is of course rather high. The digital situation is the opposite of hardware where the best stuff is simple and easy to figure out without listening to a drum loop or vocal take for an hour. The not great hardware designs are complex. Digital swung the other way where most of the man hours went into making utilitarian multi tools they’re still tinkering and the simple stuff was seemingly made to make a quick buck on a regular schedule, taking advantage of how it’s an ersatz of a hardware piece. Now I seem to only use the multi tools and the emulations of the most out there stuff. Dan no ofending here, I like your comments. I prepare myself for an interviw with one of my favourite plug in developpers. One of my questions is.... why can a plug in sound great but I can meassure aliasing. Or this one. Is it enough to use plug in doctor to give a thumps up or down. I use SPL Iron on every song and I dont care for the bad measurements. I love Klanghelm SDRR to death it does the tube saturation trick for me. I love Airwindows BusColors to death. The compressors by FLA …sorry if thats not good enough, than which hardware is good enough. I did reverb AB myself and I level matched with test tones. Its just diffrent reverbs none is better just diffrent. In the end of the day I have a sound vision, and I use my ears to make a decission on the tools. Most compressors are cool distortion boxes more than effective dynamics control systems anyway. The better ones at control and envelope shaping are the more modern ones. If it sounds good, it sounds good. SDRR2 sounds great yet has some bugs in reaper with the modulation so I don’t use it anymore. |
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Post by ericn on Sept 16, 2021 21:34:02 GMT -6
Dan no ofending here, I like your comments. I prepare myself for an interviw with one of my favourite plug in developpers. One of my questions is.... why can a plug in sound great but I can meassure aliasing. Or this one. Is it enough to use plug in doctor to give a thumps up or down. I use SPL Iron on every song and I dont care for the bad measurements. I love Klanghelm SDRR to death it does the tube saturation trick for me. I love Airwindows BusColors to death. The compressors by FLA …sorry if thats not good enough, than which hardware is good enough. I did reverb AB myself and I level matched with test tones. Its just diffrent reverbs none is better just diffrent. In the end of the day I have a sound vision, and I use my ears to make a decission on the tools. Most compressors are cool distortion boxes more than effective dynamics control systems anyway. The better ones at control and envelope shaping are the more modern ones. If it sounds good, it sounds good. SDRR2 sounds great yet has some bugs in reaper with the modulation so I don’t use it anymore. Dan brings up a really good point inderectlly here do we want to be able to control the distortion or do we want the developers to control it? This is an interesting philosophical question that only exists in the digital realm because we can control it. |
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Post by viciousbliss on Sept 19, 2021 20:34:36 GMT -6
I've been using the Oxford EQ UAD version for mastering in mode 4 to see if I wanna get this deal. I'll say that it keeps depth better than Blyss, Pro Q2, or Erin. I'm pairing it with Sonnox Dynamic Eq, Unisum, and the Weiss DS1-MK3. The Sonnox Dynamic Eq has been very useful too in both mixing and mastering.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2021 6:13:34 GMT -6
Oxford Dynamics is like a super charged, less pumpy Renaissance Compressor. It doesn’t alias because it doesn’t do anything over 4khz. Aliasing is below the imd in the limiter. Lots of internal program dependency which make it hard to make sound bad. It sounds really good dug in with a high or low shelf afterwards or before.
Warmth is also subtle unless you hit it hot. The only problem is the slight aliasing kills depth and flattens the image but maybe that is what you want from it sometimes?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2021 9:31:07 GMT -6
I've been using the Oxford EQ UAD version for mastering in mode 4 to see if I wanna get this deal. I'll say that it keeps depth better than Blyss, Pro Q2, or Erin. I'm pairing it with Sonnox Dynamic Eq, Unisum, and the Weiss DS1-MK3. The Sonnox Dynamic Eq has been very useful too in both mixing and mastering. Try Slick EQ M. It’s like super Oxford mode 4 with the TDR weighted knobs. |
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Post by viciousbliss on Sept 25, 2021 1:02:40 GMT -6
I've been using the Oxford EQ UAD version for mastering in mode 4 to see if I wanna get this deal. I'll say that it keeps depth better than Blyss, Pro Q2, or Erin. I'm pairing it with Sonnox Dynamic Eq, Unisum, and the Weiss DS1-MK3. The Sonnox Dynamic Eq has been very useful too in both mixing and mastering. Try Slick EQ M. It’s like super Oxford mode 4 with the TDR weighted knobs. I ended up getting the best results with the Oxford, and it got even better using the current Sonnox version over wherever the UAD one is at. Pretty significant difference. I've never gotten on with the Slick EQ for whatever reason. But I really take to Sonnox stuff well. Maybe the Oxford Reverb and some of the restore stuff will go on sale next month. |
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 25, 2021 20:20:40 GMT -6
Most compressors are cool distortion boxes more than effective dynamics control systems anyway. The better ones at control and envelope shaping are the more modern ones. If it sounds good, it sounds good. SDRR2 sounds great yet has some bugs in reaper with the modulation so I don’t use it anymore. Dan brings up a really good point inderectlly here do we want to be able to control the distortion or do we want the developers to control it? This is an interesting philosophical question that only exists in the digital realm because we can control it. I believe you guys, but I just know the basics and I do not have the schooling/experience to go into technical semantics. Compression always brings up distortion too… and it may is true that some developers put lesser effort into the nonlinear part. And maybe there is also some truth in the fact that a lot of analog gear behaves very smooth when pushed. I listen to a lot 70s music, the bone dry period..... and yes it has something you may can create way more easy with the exact same gear. Now a non technical point.I live now, and I need to make it happen with the gear I own. Frankly I cant even own all plug ins off the world.... it doesn’t makes sense anyway. Yes I like that sound of the older times and it often makes me think - damn born too early.... At the same time it reminds me that I have the obligation to create the sound of now, maybe with a few reminiscent moments. But I need to go my way. I just can use my taste my ears otherwise I go get lost in details. I am overwhelmed since covid … my life is upside down. I don’t know if I make it another year without loosing my sanity. Its always good to make a final decision. I made the decision to go back ITB because it pulls off workload... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2021 21:35:41 GMT -6
Most compressors are cool distortion boxes more than effective dynamics control systems anyway. The better ones at control and envelope shaping are the more modern ones. If it sounds good, it sounds good. SDRR2 sounds great yet has some bugs in reaper with the modulation so I don’t use it anymore. Dan brings up a really good point inderectlly here do we want to be able to control the distortion or do we want the developers to control it? This is an interesting philosophical question that only exists in the digital realm because we can control it. I can't stand the dynamic "effects" of the digital compressors with dysfunctional side chains. There is no control or following the peaks or the rms of the audio because they can't see it. They can't even shape the envelopes or level effectively without crazy holds, becoming a glorified fader rider, because they can't see the real peaks of the audio. This is in spite of many of them producing only analog levels of THD at 1khz. They behave much worse than analog. They're just disgusting. The amount of digital compressors that past muster is shockingly small and nothing old in software form. Nothing. |
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 27, 2021 4:30:06 GMT -6
Dan brings up a really good point inderectlly here do we want to be able to control the distortion or do we want the developers to control it? This is an interesting philosophical question that only exists in the digital realm because we can control it. I can't stand the dynamic "effects" of the digital compressors with dysfunctional side chains. There is no control or following the peaks or the rms of the audio because they can't see it. They can't even shape the envelopes or level effectively without crazy holds, becoming a glorified fader rider, because they can't see the real peaks of the audio. This is in spite of many of them producing only analog levels of THD at 1khz. They behave much worse than analog. They're just disgusting. The amount of digital compressors that past muster is shockingly small and nothing old in software form. Nothing. I never was disappointed by FLA, BRA, KLH + TDL… I am disappointed by some of the PA compressors. On some sources the MC PURPLE sounds extremely grainy compared to the HW and to the BRA 76…. |
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