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Post by EmRR on Apr 6, 2018 8:39:37 GMT -6
They did have a lot of mics, but mostly stuff I was unfamiliar with and also all oddball stuff. The lack of the other stuff proved how little live band tracking is done these days, with equipment tailored more to overdubbing parts one at a time, and not thinking of capturing a usable live take, which was what I needed.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 6, 2018 10:00:04 GMT -6
I took drbill's list to mean ACTUAL C12's, whereas many have interpreted that as 'C12 clone or style'. Actual U47's, etc. So did I. Actual C 12s, U47/48/67s, actual (non-reissue Elams), etc. Everybody has clones.
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Post by bradd on Apr 6, 2018 10:11:07 GMT -6
Me too. That's why I think it would be hard to find that list in many places. If you're outside of NY, CA or Nashville, forget it. I looked at Ocean Way's list last night, and they didn't even have everything on that last.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 6, 2018 10:15:33 GMT -6
If your a freelancer outside of Nashville or the West Coast first lesson if you have to have it you better bring it! Outside of the world class rooms I remember almost every time I would walk into a studio it always seamed that something I wanted was broken. So make the gear list 3rd priority get a great room and a great tech and tech budget, there is a huge difference between what I want and what I need! It also is going to be easier to get the sound I want in a great room where everything works than an OK room where stuff needs work! Yes, I've mentioned going to a 'large commercial music studio' before and taking many mics, stands, cables, headphone amps, and headphones, because I already had as much or more than they did. Pretty much like doing a remote job. Did I mention really starting into this primarily because at the time I could not reliably rent a good room with any decent availability? The problem now is that there are a lot of "modern" large "commercial" studios which are not really run by studio people - they're owned by rich amateurs. Trust fund kids, doctors and lawyers and business executives (a nod there to Malvina Renolds) who "always wanted" to be in music and can now afford to buy their own big studio as an ego plaything (kind of a boomer's hipper equivalent of a big yacht) - but really don't have the foggiest notion of what is really needed. They're pretty easy to spot - really nice looking, piles of different preamps but not enough of any single kind to do an entire session, oddly anemic mic locker, lots of "stuff" to impress people who don't have an in-depth history in the field. Possibly a big collection of vintage guitars and amps. Often no tape machines, even in storage. The ones with the extensive high end mic lockers are more often than not those that have been around for awhile.
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Post by drbill on Apr 6, 2018 10:44:46 GMT -6
I took drbill's list to mean ACTUAL C12's, whereas many have interpreted that as 'C12 clone or style'. Actual U47's, etc. Yes. I meant actual C12's not clones. I'm constantly on a quest for the "perfect" overhead mic. Right now, I'm at a toss up between Gefell UM70's and KM53's. They are both awesome, and close, but I have a distant memory of the last time I used C12's on overs (quite awhile back), and it was spectacular, so that's sort of a benchmark for me. They may not always work, but if they are available, I ALWAYS want to try using them. As far as the 77/44's, those are not rare at all. And as mentioned, I'd be OK with some high quality 47 clones like the Flea. Honestly, maybe I'm out of touch, but it doesn't seem like that difficult of a list. I know there are a few quirky things that all studio's won't have, but beyond the C12's which rarely come up FS, it doesn't seem that difficult of a list to accumulate.
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Post by happychap on Apr 6, 2018 10:47:57 GMT -6
Yes, I've mentioned going to a 'large commercial music studio' before and taking many mics, stands, cables, headphone amps, and headphones, because I already had as much or more than they did. Pretty much like doing a remote job. Did I mention really starting into this primarily because at the time I could not reliably rent a good room with any decent availability? The problem now is that there are a lot of "modern" large "commercial" studios which are not really run by studio people - they're owned by rich amateurs. Trust fund kids, doctors and lawyers and business executives (a nod there to Malvina Renolds) who "always wanted" to be in music and can now afford to buy their own big studio as an ego plaything (kind of a boomer's hipper equivalent of a big yacht) - but really don't have the foggiest notion of what is really needed. They're pretty easy to spot - really nice looking, piles of different preamps but not enough of any single kind to do an entire session, oddly anemic mic locker, lots of "stuff" to impress people who don't have an in-depth history in the field. Possibly a big collection of vintage guitars and amps. Often no tape machines, even in storage. The ones with the extensive high end mic lockers are more often than not those that have been around for awhile. Cool- mind sharing the names of these many studios run by rich amateurs? Also, as long as folks are talking about 'big studios,' what's the last big studio folks here have worked at? When was it? And what was the project?
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Post by drbill on Apr 6, 2018 11:03:01 GMT -6
A quick PS :
I put those particular mics on the list mostly because they are known entities to me. There are no doubt clones that could do the job, that might sound close enough to be a non-issue. But my experience over the years leads me to believe that if I choose the right tool, and if it's in good shape, I'll get what I am looking for without experimentation. I like to work quickly - especially if my client is paying for a top room.
My drum sessions are generally pretty quick. There are no 2 day setups with time to switch out drums, heads, mics, pre's and locations in the studio. When I go to outside studio's, I'll ask for all mics to be on stands and plugged in and warmed up (if tubes) - and bussed according to my needs. I'll ask for drums to be set up and tuned (usually by the cartage guy) before the drummer and I get there (usually one hour before session) for final tweaks on both our parts. And then, within a hour or two max, we're almost always tracking.
In my own studio, I've got lots of "substitutes" that are less expensive that work as well (or almost as well) as the classics on my list. But unless I bring them, they are not enough of a "standard" to expect other studio's to have them.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 6, 2018 11:35:07 GMT -6
The problem now is that there are a lot of "modern" large "commercial" studios which are not really run by studio people - they're owned by rich amateurs. Trust fund kids, doctors and lawyers and business executives (a nod there to Malvina Renolds) who "always wanted" to be in music and can now afford to buy their own big studio as an ego plaything (kind of a boomer's hipper equivalent of a big yacht) - but really don't have the foggiest notion of what is really needed. They're pretty easy to spot - really nice looking, piles of different preamps but not enough of any single kind to do an entire session, oddly anemic mic locker, lots of "stuff" to impress people who don't have an in-depth history in the field. Possibly a big collection of vintage guitars and amps. Often no tape machines, even in storage. The ones with the extensive high end mic lockers are more often than not those that have been around for awhile. Cool- mind sharing the names of these many studios run by rich amateurs? No. I'm not into slagging others by name. You can easliy spot them by their online sites in most cases, at least if you have any familiarity with traditional studios. (A) Probably Hyde St. (B) Years ago - I've had my own private studio for around 10 years. (C) Can't tell you. NDA.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 6, 2018 12:01:52 GMT -6
During the '70s Doctors and lawyers could take tax credits for investments in films and albums. Westlake and a few others figured out that they could sell these folks studios that could charge themselves $100 an hour for their project and essentially end up with a studio for free.
That was the end of the studio business because when that tax credit ended and the studio became a liability, they turned around and sold their studios to a combination of recording engineers and trust fund kids who could undercut the rates of the older studios who had invested full price in their building and leased most of their gear.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 6, 2018 12:14:32 GMT -6
The problem now is that there are a lot of "modern" large "commercial" studios which are not really run by studio people - they're owned by rich amateurs. Cool- mind sharing the names of these many studios run by rich amateurs? Seems most of them, clear they aren't actually running a business model, as evidenced by their rates/overhead/attitude ratios. The ones around here that were the real deal are all mostly long gone.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Apr 6, 2018 12:50:39 GMT -6
Most don’t need sessions to pay the bills.
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Post by happychap on Apr 6, 2018 13:14:23 GMT -6
My experience is different- the studios I call are pretty busy and they are not run by amateurs, trust funders, doctors or lawyers. And most of them are not on online forums either.
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Post by notneeson on Apr 6, 2018 13:25:28 GMT -6
My friend Ryan has a nice studio in Oakland, reasonable rates, Trident TSM, great mics but not a lot of vintage stuff. To help shore up his business he leased out the building next door and built a thriving rehearsal studio.
Of course, the Bay Area really is not a major market for music. The upside of that, is there are some very nice rooms available for Tiny Telephone (or less) money, if you can pass as freelancer (e.g. be an experienced, nice and responsible human who can run a session basically on your own).
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Post by EmRR on Apr 6, 2018 13:38:32 GMT -6
My experience is different- the studios I call are pretty busy and they are not run by amateurs, trust funders, doctors or lawyers. And most of them are not on online forums either. Well where are you? I can only guess the non-biz variants haven't arrived near you yet, because they've killed almost every place actually running a business model around here.
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Post by happychap on Apr 6, 2018 14:40:18 GMT -6
I can call Sound Emporium and see when they have a week open. Or 25th Street. Or I can call up Echo Mountain.
What do you guys guess the nearest open date for a solid week of studio time is?
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Post by notneeson on Apr 6, 2018 14:48:54 GMT -6
I can call Sound Emporium and see when they have a week open. Or 25th Street. Or I can call up Echo Mountain. What do you guys guess the nearest open date for a solid week of studio time is? Are you Nashaming us small market guys?
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Post by happychap on Apr 6, 2018 15:09:52 GMT -6
I can call Sound Emporium and see when they have a week open. Or 25th Street. Or I can call up Echo Mountain. What do you guys guess the nearest open date for a solid week of studio time is? Are you Nashaming us small market guys? No way- I like my studios affordable and approachable and the smaller guys deliver! What's your studio?
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Post by EmRR on Apr 6, 2018 15:40:18 GMT -6
Or I can call up Echo Mountain. Not a business. Not by the rates actually paid.
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Post by happychap on Apr 6, 2018 15:47:36 GMT -6
Or I can call up Echo Mountain. Not a business. Not by the rates actually paid. So, are you saying that they don't charge enough to cover expenses?
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Post by EmRR on Apr 6, 2018 16:01:48 GMT -6
Not a business. Not by the rates actually paid. So, are you saying that they don't charge enough to cover expenses? Much evidence points this way. Many examples of them undercutting my rate, which does not add up to a positive bottom line by any stretch, not double booked 365 days a year it doesn't. It barely covers salaries, if that. They may be a 'real estate business', but not strictly a 'recording studio business'. It's a loss-leader, as these things frequently are.
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Post by happychap on Apr 6, 2018 16:22:20 GMT -6
Well, I did hear back from 25th street and Sound Emporium. Earliest date at 25th Street: July 1-7, then booked until Sept. Sound Emporium (in a town with the most studios per capita) has an opening at the end of May (21st).
Take it the info, salt to taste.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on Apr 6, 2018 16:29:14 GMT -6
So, are you saying that they don't charge enough to cover expenses? Much evidence points this way. Many examples of them undercutting my rate, which does not add up to a positive bottom line by any stretch, not double booked 365 days a year it doesn't. It barely covers salaries, if that. They may be a 'real estate business', but not strictly a 'recording studio business'. It's a loss-leader, as these things frequently are. There have always been 2 philosophies to any rental business 1. The rate sheet is the Bible 2. If it’s not being used it’s not makeing us anything so do what you need to do so we at least break even ! Both are valid, I tend to believe in something in the middle! One of the biggest problems for a small operation is nobody is out there selling the place or looking for new and different types of uses, one of the things most forget is that in its heyday Universal was doing all the Hanna Barrbera stuff during the off hours. Probably the Most successful studio in Madison WI does as much VO, political, post and remote work as Music in the studio, have to pay those bills! In the old days I knew quite a few small places that payed the bills doing all kinds of duplication work!
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Post by drbill on Apr 6, 2018 16:42:36 GMT -6
Not a business. Not by the rates actually paid. So, are you saying that they don't charge enough to cover expenses? What does this have to do with mics? NOTHING! So, back to mics, eh? Viable alternatives to C12 for OH? Perhaps the new Redd's? Haven't had a chance to try those out yet. Dying to though.....
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Post by notneeson on Apr 6, 2018 16:55:17 GMT -6
Are you Nashaming us small market guys? No way- I like my studios affordable and approachable and the smaller guys deliver! What's your studio? To clarify, I don't consider myself a studio owner per se, just someone who gets paid to record bands and other types of projects. But I have my gear parked in my friend's project studio (a few blocks from home which is great) and we have been working there a lot with singer/songwriters lately, in no small part because we have a great house rhythm section: www.davesampsonmusic.com/studiosecti-west I also track at hydestreetstudioc.com/ and www.sharkbitestudios.com/, mostly with clients who associate me with those rooms because someone else they know worked with me there or they're a repeat customer.
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Post by notneeson on Apr 6, 2018 16:59:21 GMT -6
So, are you saying that they don't charge enough to cover expenses? What does this have to do with mics? NOTHING! So, back to mics, eh? Viable alternatives to C12 for OH? Perhaps the new Redd's? Haven't had a chance to try those out yet. Dying to though..... Lucas CS-1s are pretty great in my experience. Mixed some Flea 12 OHs recently but the room wasn't doing them any major favors.
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