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Post by happychap on Mar 26, 2018 11:17:30 GMT -6
What specific songs are examples of these mono captures that you're liking? Curious to give a listen. Sure. So Peter Mulvey's latest was recorded at Ani Difranco's 'home studio' in New Orleans. A single RCA 44 on guitar. 'Which One Were You?' is certainly a stand out track for acoustic. (side note- not exactly my flavor of music). On the latest Avett Brothers (and of course, Doug Williams here on the forum has recorded their early works!), they used a single U67 on guitar (same on banjo). Great sound. Dave Rawlings stuff- usually a single Sony C37, but he runs it through a Fairchild ($50k compressor) just for some flavor! Compare that to let's say Tim Obrien's Chameleon release, which was engineered by Gary Paczosa (great engineer). That record sounds impressive with it's width of a single instrument (multi-mic'd). But listen on headphones and tell me at what point it's just too much. Sometime the illusions that we create in the recording process are impressive at first listen, but are so unnatural that they mess with our brains! It's such a fine line.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 26, 2018 11:21:39 GMT -6
Thx for the input. To ericn: I have a studio on my radar that has an impressive! gear list. They have a 12-hour lockout rate with no engineer (yes, there's an assistant) for $500. That is the 'kid in a candy store' scenario. The catch? A 6.5 hour drive. Still... And to M57: I agree comps are lower on the priorities list. That said, I've also found that the only way I can really answer a question is to dig in and try it myself. But it's always nice to get opinions! On a side note, I don't think multi-mic'ing the guitar is my cup of tea. I hear such great mono captures from the Gillian Welch/Dave Rawlings records (among many others), I can't quite relate to even the minor panning imbalances of a multi-mic capture. Perhaps x-y (not hard panned) might be the exception. Of course if anyone has any multi-mic'd guitar tracks that they love, it would be great to listen. Have you read this?: tapeop.com/interviews/85/gillian-welch-and-dave-rawlings/Love their songs and the sound of their records, some good detail in the link.
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Post by happychap on Mar 26, 2018 11:26:44 GMT -6
Thx for the input. To ericn: I have a studio on my radar that has an impressive! gear list. They have a 12-hour lockout rate with no engineer (yes, there's an assistant) for $500. That is the 'kid in a candy store' scenario. The catch? A 6.5 hour drive. Still... And to M57: I agree comps are lower on the priorities list. That said, I've also found that the only way I can really answer a question is to dig in and try it myself. But it's always nice to get opinions! On a side note, I don't think multi-mic'ing the guitar is my cup of tea. I hear such great mono captures from the Gillian Welch/Dave Rawlings records (among many others), I can't quite relate to even the minor panning imbalances of a multi-mic capture. Perhaps x-y (not hard panned) might be the exception. Of course if anyone has any multi-mic'd guitar tracks that they love, it would be great to listen. Man BradD booked one of the smaller rooms at Blackbird with engineer and All the classic Mics for a couple of hours for a lot less! That was with an engineer ! Where are you located? Maybe someone here can help? Thx. In order to run a bunch of gear combinations (mics, pres, comps), 12 hours seems about right! And the idea that I can do whatever I want (without wrecking things) is just too cool! I think $500 is a steal. They also have a BUNCH of cool instruments and amps. Also, with 12 hours- I could get some actual work done. Otherwise, I might as well just find an engineer that I like and just make a record with them at the helm. Hmmm...there's an idea!
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Post by happychap on Mar 26, 2018 11:29:52 GMT -6
Thx for the input. To ericn: I have a studio on my radar that has an impressive! gear list. They have a 12-hour lockout rate with no engineer (yes, there's an assistant) for $500. That is the 'kid in a candy store' scenario. The catch? A 6.5 hour drive. Still... And to M57: I agree comps are lower on the priorities list. That said, I've also found that the only way I can really answer a question is to dig in and try it myself. But it's always nice to get opinions! On a side note, I don't think multi-mic'ing the guitar is my cup of tea. I hear such great mono captures from the Gillian Welch/Dave Rawlings records (among many others), I can't quite relate to even the minor panning imbalances of a multi-mic capture. Perhaps x-y (not hard panned) might be the exception. Of course if anyone has any multi-mic'd guitar tracks that they love, it would be great to listen. Have you read this?: tapeop.com/interviews/85/gillian-welch-and-dave-rawlings/Love their songs and the sound of their records, some good detail in the link. I have read that. And I've actually talked to Matt Andrews (who has engineered much of their work) about doing a record with him engineering. He's been one of the main engineers for the "Nashville" TV drama, so he's availability is super tight. Anyhow...
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Post by matt on Mar 26, 2018 11:33:57 GMT -6
So, I am left with this question: is quality outboard compression a real game changer for vocals? NO, says the owner of a STA-Level. And, of course: YES! Here's why I think both answers apply- NO if you, as the primary vocalist, have good control over your technique, i.e., pay attention to volume/timbre/enunciation, and are not a shouter. IMO, genre counts too, so I give a a semi-NO for acoustic/folk playing (it's not as dynamic. Unless you shout). NO if your budget makes you choose between a comp and more/better mics. YES if you might get loud and move around the mic a lot. YES if you have any guest artists sit in- you never know what you will get performance-wise and a good vari-mu box like the STA can save takes by controlling peaks. YES if you have the $ to spend. YES if you want to follow what is typically done in pro studios. YES if you love the creamy effect that good outboard vari-mu compression can add to the signal. This is what I would do if I was starting over: Buy the best U47-type in your budget for primary vox. Why? Because it's what I like, nothing more. There's lots of great choices, as this thread documents. Buy one or a pair of KM84s or similar small-capsule condensers for primary instrument. For your situation, I'd get a second U47-type (maybe a FET for variety's sake) for secondary instrument/over-the-shoulder technique. Buy a good pop filter for the U47. Run this mic badassery into an interface with onboard FX such as UAD Unison or Antelope. With Unison you can compress on the way in with a plugin if necessary, and I think you can do this with Antelope too. And Carry On making music. Oh, and I'd mix in the box instead of through my current hybrid setup. But that's a different thread. FWIW, I don't use my STA on the way in anymore. It sits on a send and gets vox fed to it during mix. I just watch gain levels coming out of the Ventura during recording to avoid clipping, and gain-ride after the fact in Pro Tools. Easy. Now, teaching my vocalist good mic technique- not so easy.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 26, 2018 12:08:03 GMT -6
The Welch/Rawlings stuff has a lot of ambient 'stereo' bleed from the other mics. Probably sounds quite different if you isolate it.
I still have people track me down for 'that Avett sound' every now and then, and it tended to be an omni DPA 4060 in the sound hole because of the live singing, which at the time Seth would only accept an SM7, Scott is a human bullhorn all 1kHz only, usually an M160. Many times an M130 on banjo. Gleam II has some heavy RCA 44 with both facing each other for playing and lead vocal. But that stuff is all 'punk grass', performed with rock stage volume levels and a fair amount of violence and broken strings. ....the MKH mics slay all that......
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Post by notneeson on Mar 26, 2018 12:58:47 GMT -6
I have read that. And I've actually talked to Matt Andrews (who has engineered much of their work) about doing a record with him engineering. He's been one of the main engineers for the "Nashville" TV drama, so he's availability is super tight. Anyhow... It would be interesting to try their 4 mic approach on just you in a classic sounding room. The "phantom accompanist" mics just serving as ambience but critically aligned just a few feet away facing out.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 26, 2018 13:37:02 GMT -6
The Welch/Rawlings stuff has a lot of ambient 'stereo' bleed from the other mics. Probably sounds quite different if you isolate it. I still have people track me down for 'that Avett sound' every now and then, and it tended to be an omni DPA 4060 in the sound hole because of the live singing, which at the time Seth would only accept an SM7, Scott is a human bullhorn all 1kHz only, usually an M160. Many times an M130 on banjo. Gleam II has some heavy RCA 44 with both facing each other for playing and lead vocal. But that stuff is all 'punk grass', performed with rock stage volume levels and a fair amount of violence and broken strings. ....the MKH mics slay all that...... Dave’s little Neve and Pair of M49’s and a whole bunch of talent sure helps!
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Post by EmRR on Mar 26, 2018 13:56:03 GMT -6
MKH 800 Twin and MKH 30 in dual mid side, about 3.5 feet out. In my crappy room. HPF for subsonics, no other EQ or compression. M pattern is cardioid on fingerpicked parts, wide cardioid on strummed. There's a 2dB volume automation between those two dynamic ranges. Hiss/hash is the 1940's tube pre's they are running through. 2nd fret capo, don't recall what guitar, but very lightly played. dual mid side MKH sample
Also using a closer omni in the total picture at a lower level, don't have a sample of that.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 26, 2018 14:17:36 GMT -6
The Welch/Rawlings stuff has a lot of ambient 'stereo' bleed from the other mics. Probably sounds quite different if you isolate it. I still have people track me down for 'that Avett sound' every now and then, and it tended to be an omni DPA 4060 in the sound hole because of the live singing, which at the time Seth would only accept an SM7, Scott is a human bullhorn all 1kHz only, usually an M160. Many times an M130 on banjo. Gleam II has some heavy RCA 44 with both facing each other for playing and lead vocal. But that stuff is all 'punk grass', performed with rock stage volume levels and a fair amount of violence and broken strings. ....the MKH mics slay all that...... I always new Doug was good, and a freakish obscure vintage vintage spec list BUT an evening with hearing his Avitt Bros work at my old neighbors on Vinyl with good brew and reading credits made me a fan of our EMRR
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 26, 2018 14:22:19 GMT -6
The Welch/Rawlings stuff has a lot of ambient 'stereo' bleed from the other mics. Probably sounds quite different if you isolate it. I still have people track me down for 'that Avett sound' every now and then, and it tended to be an omni DPA 4060 in the sound hole because of the live singing, which at the time Seth would only accept an SM7, Scott is a human bullhorn all 1kHz only, usually an M160. Many times an M130 on banjo. Gleam II has some heavy RCA 44 with both facing each other for playing and lead vocal. But that stuff is all 'punk grass', performed with rock stage volume levels and a fair amount of violence and broken strings. ....the MKH mics slay all that...... Dude, you did the Avett brothers? That is awesome. Which albums? I know there is some incredible talent here, but it is still surprising every time when it comes up.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 26, 2018 14:27:41 GMT -6
half of Mignonette Four Thieves Gone Gleam Gleam II demos on deluxe versions of later albums (even more totally live) various one-off tracks and offshoot projects, a couple of their pre-Avett rock band records.
Absolutely none of it my best work! All done extremely fast (quite a few first take/soundchecks) and with much resistance to production/coaching. But ya know, it's what people have heard. And if you like it, thanks!
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Post by iamasound on Mar 26, 2018 14:48:10 GMT -6
Svart's post pushed me to chime in on my vocal chain, and What I have going on right now is that Gefell M930 (which has been nudging out the umt70s as it seems to capture more my chest when I inch up on it) into a Daking Mic Pre One into the Warm WA76. Then on ITB to the T-Racks White 2A and adjust when mixing with Acoustica's Tan EQ which was a free plugin based on Nebula technology and is really great.
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Post by M57 on Mar 26, 2018 17:23:24 GMT -6
Svart's post pushed me to chime in on my vocal chain, and What I have going on right now is that Gefell M930 (which has been nudging out the umt70s as it seems to capture more my chest when I inch up on it) into a Daking Mic Pre One into the Warm WA76. Then on ITB to the T-Racks White 2A and adjust when mixing with Acoustica's Tan EQ which was a free plugin based on Nebula technology and is really great. So is there any reason not to go through a real 2A before you get ITB? I seem to remember reading (here on RG?) someone posting that they like to go through a 76 to tame the transients and then to a 2A.
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Post by wiz on Mar 26, 2018 17:29:18 GMT -6
Svart's post pushed me to chime in on my vocal chain, and What I have going on right now is that Gefell M930 (which has been nudging out the umt70s as it seems to capture more my chest when I inch up on it) into a Daking Mic Pre One into the Warm WA76. Then on ITB to the T-Racks White 2A and adjust when mixing with Acoustica's Tan EQ which was a free plugin based on Nebula technology and is really great. So is there any reason not to go through a real 2A before you get ITB? I seem to remember reading (here on RG?) someone posting that they like to go through a 76 to tame the transients and then to a 2A. I do that, but I reverse that path.. I go through a 2A then the 76 cheers Wiz
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Post by EmRR on Mar 27, 2018 8:03:41 GMT -6
happychap, curious if my stereo sample is too stereo or distracting for your taste? Note it's slightly more stereo that what's being used, with the added closer (10-12") omni locking the middle a bit tighter.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 27, 2018 8:10:10 GMT -6
Svart's post pushed me to chime in on my vocal chain, and What I have going on right now is that Gefell M930 (which has been nudging out the umt70s as it seems to capture more my chest when I inch up on it) into a Daking Mic Pre One into the Warm WA76. Then on ITB to the T-Racks White 2A and adjust when mixing with Acoustica's Tan EQ which was a free plugin based on Nebula technology and is really great. So is there any reason not to go through a real 2A before you get ITB? I seem to remember reading (here on RG?) someone posting that they like to go through a 76 to tame the transients and then to a 2A. The thing to watch out for with opto, is that the release is slow enough that it can step on the subsequent vocal line in a non-musical way if you over do it.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 27, 2018 8:19:41 GMT -6
^ yep. and the meter still might not be moving much when it happens.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 27, 2018 8:38:36 GMT -6
What specific songs are examples of these mono captures that you're liking? Curious to give a listen. Sure. So Peter Mulvey's latest was recorded at Ani Difranco's 'home studio' in New Orleans. A single RCA 44 on guitar. 'Which One Were You?' is certainly a stand out track for acoustic. (side note- not exactly my flavor of music). There is definitely stereo stuff happening here. It doesn't sound like a mono capture. Sounds great btw.On the latest Avett Brothers (and of course, Doug Williams here on the forum has recorded their early works!), they used a single U67 on guitar (same on banjo). Great sound. This stuff is all full orchestrations. I got the impression that you're just doing single guitar and vocal. For me, I can get more into mono guitars and stuff when there is other instrumentation to counter balance what's going on. Panning the guitar left and banjo right for example.Dave Rawlings stuff- usually a single Sony C37, but he runs it through a Fairchild ($50k compressor) just for some flavor! Much of his stuff seems to be full orchestrations too. "I Hear Them All" is more what I was thinking, but it's soaked in verb.Compare that to let's say Tim Obrien's Chameleon release, which was engineered by Gary Paczosa (great engineer). That record sounds impressive with it's width of a single instrument (multi-mic'd). But listen on headphones and tell me at what point it's just too much. Sometime the illusions that we create in the recording process are impressive at first listen, but are so unnatural that they mess with our brains! It's such a fine line. "Father Forgive Me" sounds stellar to my ears. "The Garden" too. Both of these have definite width and are somewhat unnatural, but they don't push too far for me. I like having wider guitar so the vocal can breathe in the middle. "Get Out There And Dance" pushes too far for me, but I think it's the combination of the width and the instrument on that particular track. Maybe if it was a bigger guitar, like the other tracks, it wouldn't bother me as much.Here's an example of a single vocal mic picking up the vocal and guitar. I think it really works for this material, but I wouldn't go for this type of sound with everything, that's for sure.
Quote from Wikipedia...
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Post by iamasound on Mar 27, 2018 9:01:56 GMT -6
Svart's post pushed me to chime in on my vocal chain, and What I have going on right now is that Gefell M930 (which has been nudging out the umt70s as it seems to capture more my chest when I inch up on it) into a Daking Mic Pre One into the Warm WA76. Then on ITB to the T-Racks White 2A and adjust when mixing with Acoustica's Tan EQ which was a free plugin based on Nebula technology and is really great. So is there any reason not to go through a real 2A before you get ITB? I seem to remember reading (here on RG?) someone posting that they like to go through a 76 to tame the transients and then to a 2A. I could while away the hours Conferrin' with the flowers Consultin' with the rain And my head I'd be scratchin' While my thoughts were busy hatchin' If I had a real 2A
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Post by happychap on Mar 27, 2018 10:04:43 GMT -6
happychap, curious if my stereo sample is too stereo or distracting for your taste? Note it's slightly more stereo that what's being used, with the added closer (10-12") omni locking the middle a bit tighter. That's a fine sound- not too much, imo. To be honest, I go back and forth on the stereo guitar thing (ha- no pun intended). Of the 6 pro studios sessions that I've had over the years: 3 of the engineers stereo mic'd my acoustic (one of those engineers is a Grammy winner), 2 of them mono mic'd my guitar, and with 1 engineer we did a single mic for guitar and vocals. I'm not drawing any conclusions, it just goes to show that there is no 'way,' and that some fellas like what they like.
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Post by happychap on Mar 27, 2018 10:22:15 GMT -6
Thx for all the input! I guess the jury is still out for me regarding stereo guitar. Perhaps for my genre, mono (with some stereo 'verb) might be the 'right' call. I think the Mulvey track is mono tracked with stereo verb, btw (but I wasn't there...). Totally agree on the fact that there's a difference between a solo singer-songwriter and a more arranged track. Take a listen to Jason Isbell's 'Speed Trap Town' - one 4038 on guitar, one on vocals and a big live room. It's certainly not an 'impressive' sound, but man...it is honest! I dig single mic capture- it's an inspiring way to perform. I'd love to figure out how to give those single mic recordings more dimension (natural sounding), because they always sound flat to me compared to a 2-mic capture (this is my experience). That said, if 99% of the world says it sounds just fine, then maybe I should do the GA-47:1073:LA2A route, run that through some nice stereo verb and get on with life!
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Post by gouge on Mar 27, 2018 13:16:42 GMT -6
Thx for all the input! I guess the jury is still out for me regarding stereo guitar. Perhaps for my genre, mono (with some stereo 'verb) might be the 'right' call. I think the Mulvey track is mono tracked with stereo verb, btw (but I wasn't there...). Totally agree on the fact that there's a difference between a solo singer-songwriter and a more arranged track. Take a listen to Jason Isbell's 'Speed Trap Town' - one 4038 on guitar, one on vocals and a big live room. It's certainly not an 'impressive' sound, but man...it is honest! I dig single mic capture- it's an inspiring way to perform. I'd love to figure out how to give those single mic recordings more dimension (natural sounding), because they always sound flat to me compared to a 2-mic capture (this is my experience). That said, if 99% of the world says it sounds just fine, then maybe I should do the GA-47:1073:LA2A route, run that through some nice stereo verb and get on with life! one way is to setup an x/y room mic and feed that very slightly into the mix. well that's what I do.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 4, 2018 21:41:45 GMT -6
Let's say you have $5k for gear to record acoustic guitar and vocals (yes, at the same time), what would your chain look like? Thx! I’m just spitballing Vocal Mic - Samar TF08/Used Blue Kiwi AG Mic - Soyuz SU-13 CAPI VP28 Chandler TG Opto Focusrite Clarett
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Post by adamjbrass on Apr 5, 2018 5:15:41 GMT -6
The Welch/Rawlings stuff has a lot of ambient 'stereo' bleed from the other mics. Probably sounds quite different if you isolate it. the harrow and the harvest is a masterpeice of sound and music.
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