|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 25, 2018 15:17:08 GMT -6
I've been happy with a Miktek C1 and a Daking Mic Pre 1. For ambience, add a 57 room mike feeding nothing but an Exponential Pheonix or Nimbus.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Mar 25, 2018 16:01:46 GMT -6
Stereo guitar does not have to be unnatural. If someone's made unnaturally wide stereo, they either like it or don't know what they're doing.
For recording both together, I would also consider an ambisonic or dual mid-side rig so you have pattern control after the fact. You might be surprised how much pattern change in post can do for you. I'm currently buzzing on my new MKH 800 Twin and MKH 30 combo. Ambisonic collapsed to stereo would give maximum repositioning, which can be automated per part of a song if needed.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Mar 25, 2018 17:02:19 GMT -6
Stereo guitar does not have to be unnatural. If someone's made unnaturally wide stereo, they either like it or don't know what they're doing. ..or both
|
|
|
Post by spindrift on Mar 25, 2018 17:27:04 GMT -6
Regarding examples, here's a rough I'm working on with my friend and artist Chris Beland for his upcoming EP. We recorded this in a cabin by Suttle Lake in Central Oregon. He is cool with me sharing it in its current form, but we do want to re-do some BGVs and add standup bass and a string section to this. Chain is: VOX: U67 (fig8) - Fearn VT-24 - Retro 2A3 - CL1B - RADAR AGtr: KM88i (fig8) - Fearn VT-24 - Retro 2A3 - RADAR DI: AGtr - Fearn VT-I/F Tube DI - RADAR I blended in some DI with the AGtr for a touch more body. I used Sound Radix Auto-Align to find the correct sample offset for phase issues between the DI and Agtr mic. www.dropbox.com/s/jo2ar39xrcam421/cb-ephemeral-rough2.mp3?dl=0
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Mar 25, 2018 17:43:55 GMT -6
Regarding examples, here's a rough I'm working on with my friend and artist Chris Beland for his upcoming EP. We recorded this in a cabin by Suttle Lake in Central Oregon. He is cool with me sharing it in its current form, but we do want to re-do some BGVs and add standup bass and a string section to this. Chain is: VOX: U67 (fig8) - Fearn VT-24 - Retro 2A3 - CL1B - RADAR AGtr: KM88i (fig8) - Fearn VT-24 - Retro 2A3 - RADAR DI: AGtr - Fearn VT-I/F Tube DI - RADAR I blended in some DI with the AGtr for a touch more body. I used Sound Radix Auto-Align to find the correct sample offset for phase issues between the DI and Agtr mic. www.dropbox.com/s/jo2ar39xrcam421/cb-ephemeral-rough2.mp3?dl=0Man, that's beautiful, and sounds gorgeous, but it's all vintage gear and you broke happychap's budget two-fold with just the pre-amps alone.
|
|
|
Post by spindrift on Mar 25, 2018 17:49:44 GMT -6
Regarding examples, here's a rough I'm working on with my friend and artist Chris Beland for his upcoming EP. We recorded this in a cabin by Suttle Lake in Central Oregon. He is cool with me sharing it in its current form, but we do want to re-do some BGVs and add standup bass and a string section to this. Chain is: VOX: U67 (fig8) - Fearn VT-24 - Retro 2A3 - CL1B - RADAR AGtr: KM88i (fig8) - Fearn VT-24 - Retro 2A3 - RADAR DI: AGtr - Fearn VT-I/F Tube DI - RADAR I blended in some DI with the AGtr for a touch more body. I used Sound Radix Auto-Align to find the correct sample offset for phase issues between the DI and Agtr mic. www.dropbox.com/s/jo2ar39xrcam421/cb-ephemeral-rough2.mp3?dl=0Man, that's beautiful, and sounds gorgeous, but it's all vintage gear and you broke happychap's budget two-fold with just the pre-amps alone. Thanks. I guess you’re right tone-wise...but the dual fig8 mic technique is what I’m trying to demonstrate. Similar results could have been had with an 87i, possibly a KM84 and a solid state preamp.
|
|
|
Post by reddirt on Mar 25, 2018 20:00:20 GMT -6
Geez M57 , cut yourself some slack - it's really, really good - your pitch is great , you have similar sound to the guy in Prefab Sprout FWIW.
Keep at it man.
Cheers, Ross
|
|
|
Post by spindrift on Mar 25, 2018 20:08:32 GMT -6
I missed your post at the end of page 2 M57. Good stuff, great sounds and I bet that WA2A really helped control you vocal sound! Very nice song and instrumentation.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 25, 2018 20:45:54 GMT -6
Great sounds there spindrift.
M57, man, in your hands those East/West sounds are amazing. That track sounds really good.
|
|
|
Post by bluegrassdan on Mar 25, 2018 21:59:10 GMT -6
Sounds great, Keith!
|
|
|
Post by spindrift on Mar 25, 2018 22:36:46 GMT -6
Thanks Dan. In my limited experience with your new preamp, I doubt the tone would have been much different if I had your preamp in my possession during that session. Not to side-track the thread but here’s a song I recently tracked....my 15 yo neighbor girl who, it turns out, can actually sing and play the guitar! We tracked this exclusively through your preamp and I really am enjoying the tone! It’s my current go-to preamp. We tracked Agtr and VOX separately and used the technique that drbill was talking about above: 1 SDC out front & 1 LDC over the R shoulder looking at the strings/soundhole. Vox: Ioaudio MK67 - Retro 2A3 (a little 12K boost) - Retro 176 - RADAR Agtr L: MK67 over her R shoulder panned 10:00 - Retro 2A3 (a little 12K boost) - Retro 176 - RADAR Agtr R: KM88i in the usual spot out front looking at the 12th fret panned 2:00 - Retro 2A3 - CL1B - RADAR www.dropbox.com/s/75xw7f13njvfhu0/sh-bellyache-rough1.mp3?dl=0
|
|
|
Post by bluegrassdan on Mar 25, 2018 22:51:35 GMT -6
Aw man! Thanks for sharing this. And tell your neighbor that she sounds awesome!
I would look forward to a Fearn to DB comparison. Hoping to take Doug Fearn to lunch when I’m in Philadelphia this May. He’s a brilliant designer.
|
|
|
Post by iamasound on Mar 26, 2018 0:20:27 GMT -6
Thanks Dan. In my limited experience with your new preamp, I doubt the tone would have been much different if I had your preamp in my possession during that session. Not to side-track the thread but here’s a song I recently tracked....my 15 yo neighbor girl who, it turns out, can actually sing and play the guitar! We tracked this exclusively through your preamp and I really am enjoying the tone! It’s my current go-to preamp. We tracked Agtr and VOX separately and used the technique that drbill was talking about above: 1 SDC out front & 1 LDC over the R shoulder looking at the strings/soundhole. Vox: Ioaudio MK67 - Retro 2A3 (a little 12K boost) - Retro 176 - RADAR Agtr L: MK67 over her R shoulder panned 10:00 - Retro 2A3 (a little 12K boost) - Retro 176 - RADAR Agtr R: KM88i in the usual spot out front looking at the 12th fret panned 2:00 - Retro 2A3 - CL1B - RADAR www.dropbox.com/s/75xw7f13njvfhu0/sh-bellyache-rough1.mp3?dl=0I really like the sound of that acoustic and will give the technique a whirl with the mics at my disposal, a Gefell umt70s for the figure 8 and an old AKG 4051b sans 10db pad for 12th fret view of the guitar. If you didn't correct her vocal in post I am super impressed at the way she can hit a note so very spot on in tune, and her song lyric is very well written. She is very good at 15 y/o and extremely lucky to have you as a neighbor to record her. I wish you were mine when I was her age, Mr. Noto was a Formica salesman, LOL.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 26, 2018 7:45:07 GMT -6
No one could complain about that acoustic guitar sound spindrift.
That signal path is one of my fantasy gear paths. I'm very compatible with U67's, and the io67 sounds really good, I love the Retro 176 compressor, it's my favorite after the Cl1B.
I'm hoping the Stam SA67 will equal or better the io67. That's a tall order though, that Neumann capsule's hard to beat.
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Mar 26, 2018 8:06:21 GMT -6
Far be it from me to recommend anything, but I think you mentioned a chain that included a Great River Pre and a Stam 2A. Also, I was impressed by wiz's video where he hit the WA-2A pretty hard. Well, I have a Great River MP-500NV and a Warm WA-2A, so this morning I decided to give a try at tracking with the Warm Audio compressor in the chain, which is not my normal MO because as a singer/songwriter in a home studio, I try to keep things simple and I don't like to have to watch meters and needles when I record. Anyway, I decided to re-track a vocal to see if I could do any better. I tracked it this morning and tweaked it and remastered the song this afternoon. I don't have the mixing chops that most people who participate here have (that's why I'm here - to learn), so take it with grain of salt. Martin's and wiz's stuff sounds amazing to me. Listener Beware: I recently purchased an EastWest orchestral library, having never had one before - and of course as soon as I had it up and running I just had to use it somewhere. In my excitement this one may have turned into somewhat of a Frankenstration. https%3A//soundcloud.com/m57/the-end-of-the-skylineThe chain for this vocal is a Blackspade UM-4X ( link) --> Great River MP-500NV --> Warm Audio WA-2A. I'm a pretty sibilant kind of guy and as you can hear, I struggle to tame my esses. With hindsight, I think I hit the WA-2A too hard; there are places where it's just a little too pinched and I can't un-pinch it - but that said, I have to admit that mixing was a hell of a lot easier after putting the compressor in the chain, and once ITB there was much less prep and automation - Not to mention that the WA-2A just sounds better than any plug I have. Man this is great. The first high note at :50 was a game changer! Your voice reminds me of the lead singer of Guster.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Mar 26, 2018 9:02:06 GMT -6
Regarding examples, here's a rough I'm working on with my friend and artist Chris Beland for his upcoming EP. We recorded this in a cabin by Suttle Lake in Central Oregon. He is cool with me sharing it in its current form, but we do want to re-do some BGVs and add standup bass and a string section to this. Chain is: VOX: U67 (fig8) - Fearn VT-24 - Retro 2A3 - CL1B - RADAR AGtr: KM88i (fig8) - Fearn VT-24 - Retro 2A3 - RADAR DI: AGtr - Fearn VT-I/F Tube DI - RADAR I blended in some DI with the AGtr for a touch more body. I used Sound Radix Auto-Align to find the correct sample offset for phase issues between the DI and Agtr mic. www.dropbox.com/s/jo2ar39xrcam421/cb-ephemeral-rough2.mp3?dl=0Is that a CV4 next to the 67?
|
|
|
Post by spindrift on Mar 26, 2018 9:37:50 GMT -6
Regarding examples, here's a rough I'm working on with my friend and artist Chris Beland for his upcoming EP. We recorded this in a cabin by Suttle Lake in Central Oregon. He is cool with me sharing it in its current form, but we do want to re-do some BGVs and add standup bass and a string section to this. Chain is: VOX: U67 (fig8) - Fearn VT-24 - Retro 2A3 - CL1B - RADAR AGtr: KM88i (fig8) - Fearn VT-24 - Retro 2A3 - RADAR DI: AGtr - Fearn VT-I/F Tube DI - RADAR I blended in some DI with the AGtr for a touch more body. I used Sound Radix Auto-Align to find the correct sample offset for phase issues between the DI and Agtr mic. www.dropbox.com/s/jo2ar39xrcam421/cb-ephemeral-rough2.mp3?dl=0Is that a CV4 next to the 67? That’s a Wunder CM7S with the K47 capsule. We used it on some of the songs that didn’t require singing & playing simultaneously. It’s a good sounder too. I ended up ordering Neumann K47/49 capsules from Sennheiser and Mike Castoro installed them in new head baskets so I can quickly switch between the M7 (Thiersch Red Line OEM) and the K47 capsules.
|
|
|
Post by matt on Mar 26, 2018 9:49:23 GMT -6
Let's say you have $5k for gear to record acoustic guitar and vocals (yes, at the same time), what would your chain look like? Thx! I don't have much to add beyond what others have said except to say that my thinking about gear is evolving. At one point I would have said: buy expensive everything- Neve preamps or a famous equivalent, vintage tube compressors, and badass Neumann type mics (47/67/87 etc). So, with this ethos in mind, I own a pretty good vocal chain: Cathedral Pipes Notre Dame (U47ish), A-Designs Ventura (Quad 8), Retro STA-Level, into an Apogee Symphony. I never got around to buying a KM84 or two, which I regret. However, these days I would condense my spending down to microphones and manipulate the "flavor" of the recording in software, going straight into any modern interface by UAD, Antelope, Focusrite, Presonus, Audient, etc. For better or worse, emulations are getting damn good, and so-called "color" can be added these days with a wide variety of pretty killer plugins. Just my opinion: go all in with microphones that capture your performance in a way YOU find euphonically pleasing, and mix to taste in your DAW. If I did not have access to microphones to try, I would drive to Vintage King or Sweetwater or your local retailer wherever it is - even if it's a long drive, the trip would be worth it - and audition all the choices. I found my Notre Dame at the short-lived "Pot Luck" audio conference in Arizona where I live. Chuck Dickinson from Cathedral Pipes was there and I talked to him and spoke/sang into a sample mic for an hour. It was beautiful. And I am not a singer! If you can't try before you buy, make sure there's a good return policy.
|
|
|
Post by happychap on Mar 26, 2018 10:07:23 GMT -6
Wow. This thread has been fun/interesting- thanks for all the great clips/opinions/suggestions! I'd like to comment on each one, but I don't want to get things too cluttered. Suffice to say that I've listened to everything and appreciate it all- some GREAT stuff here!
So, I am left with this question: is quality outboard compression a real game changer for vocals?
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
|
Post by ericn on Mar 26, 2018 10:26:30 GMT -6
Wow. This thread has been fun/interesting- thanks for all the great clips/opinions/suggestions! I'd like to comment on each one, but I don't want to get things too cluttered. Suffice to say that I've listened to everything and appreciate it all- some GREAT stuff here! So, I am left with this question: is quality outboard compression a real game changer for vocals? Yes it can be, This is again why I suggest spending some money on a studio that’s well equipped to get a feel for direction! As a former gear pimp I can probably think of at least 100 combos , many of which you are never going to think of that in some way are going to impress, and I’ll bet Adam Brass can come up with another 100! The thing about renting studio time is you get an engineer who has no skin in the game who can tell you what’s doing what ! I have seen store demos where a guy will cheat with a little EQ or dynamics without telling the customer and you never know what’s in stock to demo who what kind of experience the pimp of the day has.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Mar 26, 2018 10:38:35 GMT -6
Wow. This thread has been fun/interesting- thanks for all the great clips/opinions/suggestions! I'd like to comment on each one, but I don't want to get things too cluttered. Suffice to say that I've listened to everything and appreciate it all- some GREAT stuff here! So, I am left with this question: is quality outboard compression a real game changer for vocals? Good question. As an engineer/musician I had kind of given up on it for ease and simplicity's sake, and honestly, hearing compression as I record wasn't really much of a game changer. Of course, there are great options once it all gets in the box, but in my case, once ITB, it stays ITB, so I pretty much have to get in all the real analog goodness while tracking. I don't know that I would go as far as putting an EQ in the chain, but after my little experiment yesterday, I liked what I heard, and I'm thinking of going back to tracking with the 2A. That said, if I was working with budget, I'd be tempted to pour it all into quality mics and pres and put off outboard purchases. It really comes down to what you find and at what price. These 2A's that are coming in at the under $1000 price point are so good that it may be tempting, but I don't know that I want to spend 20% of my budget on something that isn't critical. And as far as the specific chain is concerned: Sure, there are 200 great combinations out there, but if there's one thing I've learned it's that a vocal chain is a personal thing, and unfortunately you won't really know what is best until you actually hear it. I've sung through quite a few mic/mic pre combinations on the journey to where I am now and I'm very happy with my Blackspade -> Great River -> Warm Audio chain, but I don't doubt that there are even better fits for my voice.
|
|
|
Post by happychap on Mar 26, 2018 10:51:44 GMT -6
Thx for the input. To ericn: I have a studio on my radar that has an impressive! gear list. They have a 12-hour lockout rate with no engineer (yes, there's an assistant) for $500. That is the 'kid in a candy store' scenario. The catch? A 6.5 hour drive. Still...
And to M57: I agree comps are lower on the priorities list. That said, I've also found that the only way I can really answer a question is to dig in and try it myself. But it's always nice to get opinions!
On a side note, I don't think multi-mic'ing the guitar is my cup of tea. I hear such great mono captures from the Gillian Welch/Dave Rawlings records (among many others), I can't quite relate to even the minor panning imbalances of a multi-mic capture. Perhaps x-y (not hard panned) might be the exception. Of course if anyone has any multi-mic'd guitar tracks that they love, it would be great to listen.
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 26, 2018 10:59:49 GMT -6
Thx for the input. To ericn: I have a studio on my radar that has an impressive! gear list. They have a 12-hour lockout rate with no engineer (yes, there's an assistant) for $500. That is the 'kid in a candy store' scenario. The catch? A 6.5 hour drive. Still... And to M57: I agree comps are lower on the priorities list. That said, I've also found that the only way I can really answer a question is to dig in and try it myself. But it's always nice to get opinions! On a side note, I don't think multi-mic'ing the guitar is my cup of tea. I hear such great mono captures from the Gillian Welch/Dave Rawlings records (among many others), I can't quite relate to even the minor panning imbalances of a multi-mic capture. Perhaps x-y (not hard panned) might be the exception. Of course if anyone has any multi-mic'd guitar tracks that they love, it would be great to listen. What specific songs are examples of these mono captures that you're liking? Curious to give a listen.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
|
Post by ericn on Mar 26, 2018 11:09:43 GMT -6
Thx for the input. To ericn: I have a studio on my radar that has an impressive! gear list. They have a 12-hour lockout rate with no engineer (yes, there's an assistant) for $500. That is the 'kid in a candy store' scenario. The catch? A 6.5 hour drive. Still... And to M57: I agree comps are lower on the priorities list. That said, I've also found that the only way I can really answer a question is to dig in and try it myself. But it's always nice to get opinions! On a side note, I don't think multi-mic'ing the guitar is my cup of tea. I hear such great mono captures from the Gillian Welch/Dave Rawlings records (among many others), I can't quite relate to even the minor panning imbalances of a multi-mic capture. Perhaps x-y (not hard panned) might be the exception. Of course if anyone has any multi-mic'd guitar tracks that they love, it would be great to listen. Man BradD booked one of the smaller rooms at Blackbird with engineer and All the classic Mics for a couple of hours for a lot less! That was with an engineer ! Where are you located? Maybe someone here can help?
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 26, 2018 11:09:56 GMT -6
3x Gefell M930 mics, 3x CAPI 312's, LA2A clone.
|
|