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Post by mrholmes on Mar 24, 2018 21:33:09 GMT -6
Everytime I read questions like this one xyz to spend I ask myself...why not trying first with the gear you already own. Every mic pre in a shitty 30 bucks Behringer interface is a million miles ahead from what I had in my first Tascam PS and later Boss BR 8.
There are more than decent mics on the market which wont cost you a leg or your arm.
I just had to experiment with some mic preamp simulations last week tracks which came from cheap internal mic pres. I was surprised how well some mimic my loved 1073.
In other words try if you like what you get with the gear you have before you swing 5k.
My 2 cents.
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Post by gouge on Mar 24, 2018 22:22:10 GMT -6
I was thinking that this would be less of a hypothetical exercise and more of a 'this is what I do, and this is what it sounds like' kind of thread. Perhaps the basic 'guy with guitar' is not as popular as I'd like to think. The Flea/Lulu track was a tad brighter than I thought that chain would be (was it high passed?). Here's probably the best I've done (just a clip) single KSM 32 into audient id14: ) I keep wanting to believe that I don't have to spend big bucks, but then I realize how crappy all my recordings sound. the issue is you have asked a hypothetical question. most of the stuff i record these days is singer songwriter stuff and i've used lots of different mics, from sm57 to $2K pencil mics. whilst i don't have the chops of some of the people here i can say there is no straight answer and it really depends on your situation. too much depends on the artist and the space you are recording in and what sound the artist is looking for. you are out of luck if you record a mono mic and the artist asks you to tweak the vocals different to the guitar. last weekend i recorded a female singer songwriter on acoustic 2 different ways on 2 songs. i would have also tried 2 fig 8 mics if i had the right ones for the job. so that would have been 3 ways tried. could be it turns out ms is best for you. me recommending a high quality pair of cardioid mics is not going to get you there. that said, there are multiple answers in the thread. why didn't you like those answers. |
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 25, 2018 2:15:53 GMT -6
I would spend a couple of a hundred on studio time at the best equipped studio I could find try some of the standard staples and figure out what best suited me so I could save money in the long run !
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Post by M57 on Mar 25, 2018 4:22:21 GMT -6
I was thinking that this would be less of a hypothetical exercise and more of a 'this is what I do, and this is what it sounds like' kind of thread. Perhaps the basic 'guy with guitar' is not as popular as I'd like to think. Here's probably the best I've done (just a clip) single KSM 32 into audient id14: ) So this is where I'm not clear - are you looking to record mostly yourself ..or others? If you're using more than one mic - there's a big difference between an all-purpose mic, and one that's the best fit for your voice. Is that you in the clip? |
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Post by mjheck on Mar 25, 2018 8:11:44 GMT -6
The "It depends" answers aren't trying to be obtuse - it is really a big factor. I got a wonderful capture using a pair of KM84's on a medium bodied, silk and steel stringed capo'ed Martin and a u48 on the voice of an excellent female vocalist in a small room. It was such a good recording that is perfectly captured every time she moved her head or swayed with the music, resulting in a nausea inducing, unusable and dizzying mess. Not gonna make that mistake again  . My most honest answer is I start with KM84's - it has worked with Neves, API's, Portico's, V72's and Apollo Unision preamp simulations. I have also had a 57 be perfect for a hard strummer playing percussively with a pick. Of all the stuff I've owned, I've somehow never had anything from Great River, despite it always sounding great to me. As you alluded to that as an option, I would venture you can't go wrong with that choice, and it is nice value too. Two 84's and a two channel GR would be close to the proposed amount and be a set of life time components. Whether or not it scratches the itch? Well, it depends... : ). |
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Post by happychap on Mar 25, 2018 9:02:15 GMT -6
Again, thanks for the replies- I am listening to all of them! I get that this is a hypothetical question to a degree, but I figure many of you guys are recording vocals and acoustic, so: what has been working for you? Or what would be on your wish list? And I am taking note of the specific suggestions already mentioned, thx!
I think one of the big questions is multi-mic guitar or not. My opinion is that it is very difficult to not get strange stereo effects when you stereo mic (spaced pair, ORTF, mid-side and even XY) the guitar. Put on headphones and listen to what people who multi-mic are doing with acoustic guitar and tell me it's not a tad disorienting. But getting a full-bodied mono capture is not easy.
As mentioned, there are a bunch of ways to tackle the singing guitarist. I guess a big part of my question is: who here is getting pro results and how are you doing it?
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Post by happychap on Mar 25, 2018 9:09:47 GMT -6
So this is where I'm not clear - are you looking to record mostly yourself ..or others? If you're using more than one mic - there's a big difference between an all-purpose mic, and one that's the best fit for your voice. Is that you in the clip? That's me. I'm just recording myself. Here's where I'm at- I can make decent recordings, but not good enough. I'm either buying gear or studio time. Capturing a singing guitarist and getting a competitive PRO sound is a difficult task, imo! I don't hear a lot of great DIY recordings of the solo singer-songwriter. I know that it's possible and I'd love to hear those tracks and know the gear that was used. I'm sure you all agree that recordings (both good and bad) speak for themselves! |
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Post by spindrift on Mar 25, 2018 9:42:06 GMT -6
I’m going to focus on mics because I think that is where you can get the most bang for your buck sound-wise. If it’s singer/songwriter, I prefer capturing a mono agtr track, then maybe doubling the agtr on a second pass if a fuller sound is required. I’ve achieved the best isolation with two fig8 mics taking advantage of their nulls. The problem with having to pick one mic for guitar is that it really does depend on the song-player-guitar combo. Recently, I was retracking some agtr with an artist because we had too much drum bleed in the KM84 when we live tracked it, making the drum mix phasey and brittle/bright sounding. First off, timing and groove on this re-track took some time to get right as the guitarist is no longer playing with that band on that day, he’s overdubbing. Not ideal. While setting up, mics I had in mind were MK67, KM88i, KM84i. I ended up putting up and tracking both the MK67 and the KM88i which worked for a few of the songs. But come to the last song, the strumming pattern on the Gibson J45 was just too brittle sounding for the KM88i despite moving it a bit to find a sweeter spot. I then switched to the MK67. Sounded good but a lot of harmonic distortion/garbling that I could not get out of the signal. For more clarity, I had thoughts that I should try a U87i or KM84i....or even the TLM67 guts (which sounds great on Agtr BTW) I still have and lose the tube mic section. In the end, both the artist and I were very tired and I got a decent sound with the already setup MK67. My point being that depending on the song, the player, the guitar even.....the need for a mic can change quickly! If you can nail it down to a style, specific guitar and player, you might be able to find a combo that works most of the time. Start changing these up and you’ll find yourself wishing for more tools in the toolbox. All that said, a U87i (or Ai if it fits your voice) and a KM84i will take you a long way and be useful on so many other things at the same time. U87i in fig8, 84 pointed downwards towards the neck/body intersection, paying careful attention to vocal leakage and phase issues when adjusting. Side note and lesson learned: Upon further reflection, I really wish I would have put up a KM84i, U87i or the TLM67 guts and maybe taken the capture with less tubes in the path for that last strummey song. It was MK67 (tube), bluegrassdan DB Tube Mic Pre ( which I am really digging!), Retro 2A3 tube EQ, Retro 176 Tube Compressor. That’s a lot of tubes in the chain for something as harmonically rich as an acoustic guitar. Taking 5 mins to switch to a FET mic would have been time well spent I suspect. |
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Post by spindrift on Mar 25, 2018 9:53:58 GMT -6
So this is where I'm not clear - are you looking to record mostly yourself ..or others? If you're using more than one mic - there's a big difference between an all-purpose mic, and one that's the best fit for your voice. Is that you in the clip? That's me. I'm just recording myself. Here's where I'm at- I can make decent recordings, but not good enough. I'm either buying gear or studio time. Capturing a singing guitarist and getting a competitive PRO sound is a difficult task, imo! I don't hear a lot of great DIY recordings of the solo singer-songwriter. I know that it's possible and I'd love to hear those tracks and know the gear that was used. I'm sure you all agree that recordings (both good and bad) speak for themselves! Happy - you’re wearing a lot of hats in that situation and it’s a special time when you can pull them all off spectacularly. You have to worry about the engineering PLUS the singing, playing, and performance too. Collaborating with a good engineer friend might be a help too. |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 25, 2018 10:22:13 GMT -6
KM84, Brass Capsule AKG C-12A, or Pearlman TM-1 at about 2-3 feet, live room. CRS-Ind DM 4412 preamp. Studer A800 MKIII or Antelope Orion 32.
Alternately - record scratch tracks using Beyer M88 on vocal and LR Baggs Anthem pickup on guitar. Record vocals and guitar separately to scrtatch tracks using TM-1 on vocal (around 18") and KM-84 or C-12A on guitar (2.5-3 feet.) Same preamps and recorders. (This is the technique I use when laying down scratch tracks while the drummer does his keeper.)
A technique I have not personally tried yet, as I have good results with the others - matched pair of figure 8 mics at around 1.5-2 feet, arranged so vocal is in the null of the guitar mic and vice versa. Same Preamps and recorders. The only mics I have that would work with this are the TM-1s, but I'm told that a pair of U-67s give really good results; other possibilities would include a pair or ribbons. Not Royers because they don't have symmetrical pickup and I would not want different coloration of room sound. Or a pair of U-48s if you're lucky enough.
Guitars in my case are either a '59 J-200 or a '64 Guild D-40.
The CRS-IND is a handmade 4 channel preamp made by Carl Johnson in LA, who also does some work for A-Designs. It's a very clean preamp that, as I understand it, is based on a custom discrete opamp that Carl developed for the Quad-Eight consoles.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 25, 2018 10:28:00 GMT -6
Thx. I've had SM7's a couple of times- I keep selling them! Maybe I'll have another go... Also, if any of you folks want to share your stripped down acoustic guitar/vocal recordings, I'd love to take a listen as a point of reference. You could look at other flavors of dynamic mic for this scenario, see if one stands out on your voice— the larger Heil mics are nice, RE20 works on many voices, maybe a 441. I don't think it's so much about "the one and only best chain" as it is about finding one that inspires you. Beyer M-88. Great dynamic mic. |
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Post by Guitar on Mar 25, 2018 10:34:16 GMT -6
I pretty much agree with all of the above.
Vocal - 251, 47, or a nice vocal dynamic (M88, SM7, RE20) 67 style also works on some voices. Or the C12. This is pretty basic stuff.
Guitar - Neumann pencil mic, something 67 or C12 related. Or a high quality ribbon mic.
Techniques have been described.
These are all how I've gotten my best sounds. Buying specific mics will be something you have to figure out yourself. Brands, price points, etc.
But the basic 'categories' listed above seem tried-and-true.
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Post by happychap on Mar 25, 2018 11:06:43 GMT -6
Thanks again for the replies.
If I could shift the conversation to focus on listening to the guitar/vocal recordings that folks here have made, that would likely shed some light on the advice I'm getting. Again, I think it's hard to make great sounding solo singer-songwriter recordings!- if I heard a bunch of awesome examples, it would go a long way to convincing me that I can do it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 25, 2018 11:53:46 GMT -6
OK, here ya go.. this should give you a few things to think on ;-) You'll have to raise the volume for the unmastered tracks. The last 3 tracks were a very rough solo vocal/guitar test done at the Barbershop Studios in N.J. to test each mic and my compatibility with them.
this is the Chandler Redd on acoustic and vocal. The slight sibilance is from cheap mastering, not the mic itself, so don't let that bug you.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/a-champagne-christmas-1
Same combo, but not mastered, this is just a rough, I'll add instrumentation later.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/dear-mary-jane-10-27-17
This has the Soyuz 0-17 on vocal, KM84 on acoustic.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/long-road-back-master
This was a mic shootout with just vocal and guitar, very rough. This was just a vintage U67.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-1-u67
Same shootout, vintage U47
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-2-mic-1
Same as above on with a C-12.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-2-mic-4
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 25, 2018 11:54:51 GMT -6
I was thinking that this would be less of a hypothetical exercise and more of a 'this is what I do, and this is what it sounds like' kind of thread. Perhaps the basic 'guy with guitar' is not as popular as I'd like to think. The Flea/Lulu track was a tad brighter than I thought that chain would be (was it high passed?). Here's probably the best I've done (just a clip) single KSM 32 into audient id14: View Attachment) I keep wanting to believe that I don't have to spend big bucks, but then I realize how crappy all my recordings sound. I gravitate towards more modern sounds and probably mix brighter than a lot of guys here. I'm sure I had some eq cooking on input as well as in the box at mix. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 25, 2018 12:06:40 GMT -6
jcoutou mastered the third track above, "Long Road Back" ! Considering my tracking wasn't great in those days, I think he did a tremendous job.
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Post by drbill on Mar 25, 2018 12:33:19 GMT -6
Classics are classics for a reason. They have stood the test of time, and made iconic records that transcend trends, manufacturers and opinion, and get way out front of fickle public opinion on the latest greatest.
Your solution is simple. #1 - forget the tube mics - you cannot afford a great one. #2, you CAN afford greatness though. Buy the following FET mics and save for an additional Tube vocal mic for some diversity as time and finances allow. My preference at this point is not to buy clones or wannabe's. Purchase :
(1) KM84 or preferably a KM86 if you can find one and swing it financially ($900-$2000)
(1) Vintage U87 ($2000-$3000)
(2) Heritage 1073's ($1800)
This should hit your budget well - or maybe just a tad over - if you can take your time and shop well.
There have been more records recored with these 2 (3) mics than probably all other mics combined, although that's speculation on my part. Certainly they are at the forefront of most used mics on classic records of all time.
For stereo guitar, the 84 / 86 off the 12th fret and U87 over the right shoulder is an amazing sound that IMO, is very VERY difficult to better with any mics on the planet.
For simultaneous ac gtr and vocal recording, the polar patterns on the Neumann's above are difficult to beat. Fig 8 on the 87 will allow you to null out some of the Ac Gtr on the vocal mic, and the reach of an 84 allows precise amounts of room bleed. Conversely, the fig8 pattern on the 86 will also allow you to null out a bit of the vocal as well when recording both vocals and Acoustic together.
The Neve sound of the Heritage, along with it's EQ will give you significant options and quality sonics.
The resale of all these mics will net you MORE than what you paid for them in 5 years, unlike most chinese alternatives which will almost certainly present a loss if you decide to resell. I suspect the Heritage will hold close to it's value as well.
Best of luck. Go classic.
bp
Money well spent IMO.
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Post by happychap on Mar 25, 2018 12:55:20 GMT -6
Thanks for those samples, MJB- good stuff! And jcoutu1- thanks again!
Dr. Bill, you're probably spot on with those recommendations. I kick myself when I look back on the offer Bill Bradley (the mic shop) gave me once- $3000 for a vintage 87 and a km84. That was probably 9 years ago. Dang.
Anyhow, there's a studio in town with 87ai's and (like new!) 84's. I went in for a couple of hours and the engineer was VERY into OTRF with the 84's on guitar. I'm not a fan of that technique- yes, it's big, but it is so unnatural sounding on headphones. I guess I'll go back and ask for a mono mic'd guitar. He also set up the 87's as a spaced pair on guitar- a little better as far as the 'stereo effect' goes, but still...I'd rather a great mono sound.
We used an sm7, a Peluso 47 and a Mojave 301 on vox. SM7 was the best of the bunch (richest sounding)- through a 610.
So- I'm going to go back for a couple of hours and ask for an 87 on Vox and a single 84 on guitar. My feeling is that I shouldn't have to direct an engineer- I just want it to sound good. He also tried a single 87 (at my request), and he placed it SO far away it was no wonder it was not a keeper track. Full disclosure- I've had some less than satisfying studio experiences!
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Post by drbill on Mar 25, 2018 13:07:53 GMT -6
IF - you want stereo Ac.
Try the 84 off the 12th fret - back far enough to get a nice balanced sound (depends on Gtr, and an 87 over your R shoulder pointing down at the sound hole or if a jumbo, a bit back from the sound hole pointing towards the lower edge of the gtr (That's of course if you're R handed. Reverse for Lefty). And that's for stereo of course. Absolutely killer sound on virtually every guitar I've ever recorded that way. Classic. Timeless. WORKS in the mix.
IF you're doing gtr and vocal simultaneously, use fig8 on the Gtr over the shoulder 87 and point the null of the capsule towards your mouth. Or as close as is possible. When you get to mix, if you've done a good job, you can go stereo on the Acoustic. If there's too much vocal in the over the shoulder mic, you can dump it and go mono on the KM.
PS - screw ORTF for a stereo acoustic. Simple = best. Personally, I don't want a big wide sound for acoustic - just some imaging in stereo. As you mentioned, the big wide thing is annoying and un-natural. The above works perfectly, and the Neumann sound of both mics blends so well.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 25, 2018 14:12:37 GMT -6
Sharing examples of my work isn’t a problem, it’s finding ones that fit the criteria where I actually remember what I did! g.co/kgs/naTK33 |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 25, 2018 14:14:41 GMT -6
Drbill's spot on here. The best stereo sound I've ever gotten was exactly as he described, an SDC up front, and a mic over the right shoulder. The best solo sound was the Chandler Redd and the Soyuz 0-19. The 0-19 FET is a direct competitor with a U87, and costs 2G's, not $3,300.
You can't go wrong with a U87, but I think you should look at the Soyuz 0-19 too. The KM84 is foolproof, and it's so distinctive and easy to use.
I used a U87 for decades on hundreds of broadcast commercials and a few label albums, so yes, they are classic. I do keep an open mind though, and my experience with the Soyuz-013 SDC made me prefer it to my beloved KM84, and I would take their 0-19 FET over the U87 AI as well.
Just suggesting some options, you can't go wrong with the Neumann's, but they're pricey, and the Soyuz though expensive, is where I'd look if buying today.
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Post by stormymondays on Mar 25, 2018 14:34:27 GMT -6
I'll just add that the Joly-modded Oktava MK012 can get you a long way towards the KM84 sound for a very reasonable amount of money. I know drbill used to like them a lot! |
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Post by bluegrassdan on Mar 25, 2018 14:42:02 GMT -6
Side note and lesson learned: Upon further reflection, I really wish I would have put up a KM84i, U87i or the TLM67 guts and maybe taken the capture with less tubes in the path for that last strummey song. It was MK67 (tube), bluegrassdan DB Tube Mic Pre ( which I am really digging!), Retro 2A3 tube EQ, Retro 176 Tube Compressor. That’s a lot of tubes in the chain for something as harmonically rich as an acoustic guitar. Glad the DB Vacuum Tube Mic Pre is working out for you! Can't wait to hear it in action. If I had $5,000 for a vocal/guitar chain, I'd borrow/rent/demo some stuff and try it out on my vocal and guitar. You'll never know what is best until you try it. If the goal is to record guitar and vocals at the same time, you might try (for example) two AKG 414s in figure 8, capsules touching, one aimed up at your vocal and the other at the guitar. The null points off-axis will give you options with two in-phase signals. Two basic, good-quality "utility" microphones in-phase with good technique can sound way better than two expensive microphones out-of-phase. (Of course, all you need is a good tube preamp to make this extra special! ...hint hint) I need to do a video on this. |
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Post by Guitar on Mar 25, 2018 14:46:57 GMT -6
Sharing examples of my work isn’t a problem, it’s finding ones that fit the criteria where I actually remember what I did! g.co/kgs/naTK33That is a really impressive recording! Kudos! |
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Post by M57 on Mar 25, 2018 15:05:29 GMT -6
Far be it from me to recommend anything, but I think you mentioned a chain that included a Great River Pre and a Stam 2A. Also, I was impressed by wiz's video where he hit the WA-2A pretty hard. Well, I have a Great River MP-500NV and a Warm WA-2A, so this morning I decided to give a try at tracking with the Warm Audio compressor in the chain, which is not my normal MO because as a singer/songwriter in a home studio, I try to keep things simple and I don't like to have to watch meters and needles when I record. Anyway, I decided to re-track a vocal to see if I could do any better. I tracked it this morning and tweaked it and remastered the song this afternoon. I don't have the mixing chops that most people who participate here have (that's why I'm here - to learn), so take it with grain of salt. Martin's and wiz's stuff sounds amazing to me. Listener Beware: I recently purchased an EastWest orchestral library, having never had one before - and of course as soon as I had it up and running I just had to use it somewhere. In my excitement this one may have turned into somewhat of a Frankenstration. https%3A//soundcloud.com/m57/the-end-of-the-skylineThe chain for this vocal is a Blackspade UM-4X ( link) --> Great River MP-500NV --> Warm Audio WA-2A. I'm a pretty sibilant kind of guy and as you can hear, I struggle to tame my esses. With hindsight, I think I hit the WA-2A too hard; there are places where it's just a little too pinched and I can't un-pinch it - but that said, I have to admit that mixing was a hell of a lot easier after putting the compressor in the chain, and once ITB there was much less prep and automation - Not to mention that the WA-2A just sounds better than any plug I have. |
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