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Post by stormymondays on Aug 23, 2017 11:24:46 GMT -6
So, when will DAWs just have the dithering happening every time you output a signal? Depending who you ask, they already do. But you'll never get an official answer, I'm afraid. |
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 23, 2017 12:22:49 GMT -6
^Gotcha! I think I am starting to understand, and would agree I cannot hear any truncation distortion from this process. Perhaps this is already happening in the background. Without appearing to be too dense, let me further ask;
Wouldn't the internal summing resolution be after the inserts? Forgive me if I am missing info here. I normally record 24 bit sessions with PT. So my audio is stored on drive at 24/44 PCM WAV data, Though I often use 32 Bit with Pyramix, as that's their recommended operating method.
Obviously in PT it came be the same if you choose that, [to encode 32 bit files in your session] and they are operating at the 64 bit floating point with their processing plugs and mixing/summing architecture. I use Hardware inserts with both DAW's and never hear anything sounding off as far as truncation artifacts.
Isn't the Internal resolution referring the summing? Or are your Audio Files being Converted to 32 Bit? Or perhaps its the shuttling through Software plug ins? I suppose each time you instantiate a new plug it, it should be properly coded to work with its engine.
Can we ask which DAW's are flawed in this way? And which ones work right?
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 23, 2017 12:41:47 GMT -6
^EDIT: The Geek squad tech dudes on my facespace page helped me out
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 14:21:16 GMT -6
The lack of dither will be most apparent with very low level source material. The tiny voltage differences between a value of 2 and 3 are much more noticeable that the same differences between values of 20000 and 20001. So errors are more apparent. With dither, the error is still there, but is distributed so that it's not nearly so obvious spectrally. This was really audible in the first generation of CD players. A quiet choral passage could be almost unrecognizable. Modern conversion is much better and more bits really help, but the problem is still there, if somewhat reduced.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 23, 2017 19:27:30 GMT -6
So, when will DAWs just have the dithering happening every time you output a signal? When the DAWs are not programmed by idiots who place expedience above quality audio. Or controlled by bean counters who think that their development bucks are better spent adding bells and whistles instead of improving audio quality. Dither isn't sexy. Adding dither won't sell more copies of software. Am I a cynic? You bet! |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 23, 2017 19:30:52 GMT -6
I have a question for all you multi-channel Plug in Dither people, Does that stack noise on the mix like waves plugs? Because that would annoy me. The only time I use Dither is when I make a 16 bit from a 24 bit file. If you are using 24 bit converters, you are not truncating any bits, why does dithering help your 24 bit AD/DA converter chain? I hate noise more than anything else, and I just use a nice quality dither program to truncate a digital file. Well, if you're using a DAW that runs 32 bit it'll always get truncated. As far as noise build up, the noise floor is so low on 24 bit you'll never hear it anyway. |
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Post by ragan on Aug 23, 2017 20:22:11 GMT -6
So, when will DAWs just have the dithering happening every time you output a signal? When the DAWs are not programmed by idiots who place expedience above quality audio. Or controlled by bean counters who think that their development bucks are better spent adding bells and whistles instead of improving audio quality. Dither isn't sexy. Adding dither won't sell more copies of software. Am I a cynic? You bet! Or it's not doing anything audible so it's a waste of time. Could be a lot of things. |
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Post by Quint on Aug 23, 2017 21:34:41 GMT -6
For fucks sake. This is something that keeps popping up periodically. There is so much confusion on this matter. At this point, I would be willing to pay Bob (seriously, I would) to provide a list of best dither practices (and best dither plugins/types) for all manner of ways in which we all go into and out of digital devices. I REALLY want to just know how/when I should be applying dither and stop worrying about all of these unknowns.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 23, 2017 23:02:38 GMT -6
When the DAWs are not programmed by idiots who place expedience above quality audio. Or controlled by bean counters who think that their development bucks are better spent adding bells and whistles instead of improving audio quality. Dither isn't sexy. Adding dither won't sell more copies of software. Am I a cynic? You bet! Or it's not doing anything audible so it's a waste of time. Could be a lot of things. Ah, but "not doing anything audible" to WHO? Not to bean counters, that's for sure. And quite possibly not to (many, if not most) code jockeys, either. Which is why they'd rather put the development time into some new whiz-bang "feature" that makes better ad copy. |
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Post by ragan on Aug 23, 2017 23:39:40 GMT -6
Or it's not doing anything audible so it's a waste of time. Could be a lot of things. Ah, but "not doing anything audible" to WHO? Not to bean counters, that's for sure. And quite possibly not to (many, if not most) code jockeys, either. Which is why they'd rather put the development time into some new whiz-bang "feature" that makes better ad copy. I mean audible to anyone. To be clear, I'm not saying it's not audible. I've never tried the test. Just seems it's pretty solidly up for debate whether this dithering on your inserts business is placebo or real. The only poster to try a blind test here went 50/50 or so. |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 23, 2017 23:56:05 GMT -6
Ah, but "not doing anything audible" to WHO? Not to bean counters, that's for sure. And quite possibly not to (many, if not most) code jockeys, either. Which is why they'd rather put the development time into some new whiz-bang "feature" that makes better ad copy. I mean audible to anyone. To be clear, I'm not saying it's not audible. I've never tried the test. Just seems it's pretty solidly up for debate whether this dithering on your inserts business is placebo or real. The only poster to try a blind test here went 50/50 or so. I'm not convinced that a blind test would really tell you anything useful in this case. And just because x number of people aren't aware of a difference doesn't mean some people don't consciously hear it - and that some who "can't hear it" could with proper ear training. |
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Post by ragan on Aug 24, 2017 0:29:47 GMT -6
I mean audible to anyone. To be clear, I'm not saying it's not audible. I've never tried the test. Just seems it's pretty solidly up for debate whether this dithering on your inserts business is placebo or real. The only poster to try a blind test here went 50/50 or so. I'm not convinced that a blind test would really tell you anything useful in this case. And just because x number of people aren't aware of a difference doesn't mean some people don't consciously hear it - and that some who "can't hear it" could with proper ear training. Fair enough. We've all got our little audio dogmas, myself included. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 24, 2017 0:32:09 GMT -6
Placebo.... my buddy just tested me never better than 5/10 on a/B test... Basically him looping audio and bypassing and unbypassing dither ... also are we talking triangular / tpdf/ powr3 / mbit+ ? Lots of dither options and most pro tools dither is 16/18/20 bit no thanks ... also tried with waves IDR same result ... funny when I inserted the dither I " heard a difference " when I bypassed the dither plug I heard a difference .. but when my buddy does it and I am blind tested I am not hearing this same difference as me clicking the plugins bypass... Same here. When I insert a dither it's a "night and day difference"  When a friend double blind ABX tests me I couldn't pick it anymore than 5/10. .... and that special little "pro audio phenomena" applies to lots of other tests as well like plugin EQ's vs hardware EQ's sample rates, and fancy pants pre-amps. Of course I'm not saying other people can't hear these things or to diminish the value to others. |
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Post by donr on Aug 24, 2017 0:39:02 GMT -6
Can't imagine building dither into DAW I/O plug sends would cost anybody anything. What do DAW makers think of dither?
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Post by ChaseUTB on Aug 24, 2017 1:59:03 GMT -6
Placebo.... my buddy just tested me never better than 5/10 on a/B test... Basically him looping audio and bypassing and unbypassing dither ... also are we talking triangular / tpdf/ powr3 / mbit+ ? Lots of dither options and most pro tools dither is 16/18/20 bit no thanks ... also tried with waves IDR same result ... funny when I inserted the dither I " heard a difference " when I bypassed the dither plug I heard a difference .. but when my buddy does it and I am blind tested I am not hearing this same difference as me clicking the plugins bypass... Same here. When I insert a dither it's a "night and day difference" When a friend double blind ABX tests me I couldn't pick it anymore than 5/10. .... and that special little "pro audio phenomena" applies to lots of other tests as well like plugin EQ's vs hardware EQ's sample rates, and fancy pants pre-amps. Of course I'm not saying other people can't hear these things or to diminish the value to others. The thing is we did two sessions one 32 bit float and one 24 bit ( which I usually work at )... I was testing better on the 24bit ABX, and the waves IDR and Pro Tools Dither were most noticeable. The FabFilter Pro L and Ozone dither are very well implemented, I was taking pot shots at 32 bit float with those, the PT and older Waves were easier to hear but once I was taking the blind test that " easiness " wasn't so easy anymore. And like I said the PT dither drops The bit depth 20/ 18/ 16 bits so theoretically it should be more audible coming from 32 bit float.. The only thing, someone like jcoutu1 ragan drbill have over me is more HW inserts to test with so would be interested to hear their results/ experience. See my test only had 2 HW inserts and tested via going out a line output and back in a line input with audio and a 12db level change... Maybe someone like Jesse with 12 HW pieces could test better on ABX due to more dither plugs ... |
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Post by wiz on Aug 24, 2017 2:25:36 GMT -6
I mentioned I did it with 16 channels... I could hear it... I passed a blind test...
its real...
does it matter....? thats the big question.
I also heard it when shooting out dither for stereo mix downs when Bob O was mastering my last full album, we went through all the dither choices I had available and one was better.
I hear it as slightly improved imaging, kind of... little improvement in clarity.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 24, 2017 7:36:40 GMT -6
For fucks sake. This is something that keeps popping up periodically. There is so much confusion on this matter. At this point, I would be willing to pay Bob (seriously, I would) to provide a list of best dither practices (and best dither plugins/types) for all manner of ways in which we all go into and out of digital devices. I REALLY want to just know how/when I should be applying dither and stop worrying about all of these unknowns. Helps a lot. sonicscoop.com/2013/08/29/why-almost-everything-you-thought-you-knew-about-bit-depth-is-probably-wrong/I see it from two directions. Truncation error is noise too right, but its very low in level lower than tape hiss ever was. Now we add some noise to avoid truncation errors and we come at the same time more close to the noise floor we are known from the old times. Thats maybe a reason why some people hear a diffrence. There was a long read in BK Book about self dithering by some real gear noise. Some modern plug ins simulate this noise too. I do it too becasue I do hear a diffrence even if its a small one. In my ears it helps the image, it sits diffrent in the mix etc. Can ber pereception, and maybe is I dont care.. I feel good with it and I go on with my Songs..... |
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Post by stormymondays on Aug 24, 2017 11:48:30 GMT -6
There's an interesting comment at the end of the article: That's a bit over my head, but it implies that truncating a 32-bit floating point to 24-bit is absolutely not the same as truncating a 24-bit file to 16-bit. |
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Post by stormymondays on Aug 24, 2017 11:57:28 GMT -6
I've just read Bob Katz take on it. As @hermetech Mastering mentioned, we already have two legendary Bobs on board with this! My RME interface does truncate 32-bit to 24-bit, and they proudly say so in their product pages. According to Katz, all DAC do. I might have to revise my stance... I'm going to put in a Logic Pro X feature request. They do read those! Maybe they'll clear it up in their docs - or fix it. If somebody else wants to join in: www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 24, 2017 12:09:18 GMT -6
Placebo.... my buddy just tested me never better than 5/10 on a/B test... Basically him looping audio and bypassing and unbypassing dither ... also are we talking triangular / tpdf/ powr3 / mbit+ ? Lots of dither options and most pro tools dither is 16/18/20 bit no thanks ... also tried with waves IDR same result ... funny when I inserted the dither I " heard a difference " when I bypassed the dither plug I heard a difference .. but when my buddy does it and I am blind tested I am not hearing this same difference as me clicking the plugins bypass... Same here. When I insert a dither it's a "night and day difference" When a friend double blind ABX tests me I couldn't pick it anymore than 5/10. .... and that special little "pro audio phenomena" applies to lots of other tests as well like plugin EQ's vs hardware EQ's sample rates, and fancy pants pre-amps. Of course I'm not saying other people can't hear these things or to diminish the value to others. I'm convinced that blind testing imposes a peculiar listening mode which causes many people to tend to second guess themselves. Related to that is my belief that the accuracy of ones selections in a blind test decreases with the number of trials. In other words I'm inclined to believe that your first choice is the most accurate and they decrease in accuracy the more additional times you go. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 24, 2017 12:15:31 GMT -6
^^^ This A-B-A-B-ing conundrum is absolutely true. At least for me it is. Especially if things are "close". And I think in dithering they are, although the benefits can be cumulative when you're rocking 60-80 hardware inserts like I often am. The answer is simple. Mathematically, it's the "right" thing to do. Two of the Bob's say it's the right thing to do. I can hear a "positive" difference when I instantiate the ProL dither in front of a hardware i/o. Why would I sit around all day A/B-ing things. It just works. So I do it when I'm not being lazy or working fast. One thing is for sure, it certainly isn't NEGATIVELY affecting my mixes. What's the big anti-dithering contingent's reasoning? It takes an extra 1/1000th of my CPU to dither all my outputs? You've got to "prove" it to me? "I just don't believe it"? Whatever. I say do whatever works for you. I didn't dither for years. Now I do. It's made a positive difference in my mixes. If you don't believe me, prove it wrong.  NOTE : BTW, as mentioned I'm using ProL's dither. I still think it's doing "something" with the dither. I hear magic dust. But that said, if anyone has a CRAPPY dither that doesn't cost me $$$ to test that they would like me to try, go ahead and hit me up with the crappy dither plugin. AAX please. |
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 24, 2017 12:24:57 GMT -6
Yupp its psychology we had this with files of diffrent AD DA roundtrips, and in the moment a buddy reanmed the files and no one was able to tell which one was which most of the diferences dissapeard with all the canidates. In the end some cheapos where to close to call form units for 2K and more. Psychology plays a big role too, but mhh if it makes happy.... I use it...LOL |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Aug 24, 2017 12:50:16 GMT -6
Yeah when I un bypassed I heard the magic dust too... but when my buddy did it ... well dam where did the magic dust go...
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Post by donr on Aug 24, 2017 13:13:10 GMT -6
I 'blind test' in a DAW using the John Kennedy method. Close your eyes and click the mouse on the bypass button so fast and so many times you don't know if it's bypassed or not. Then choose which state sounds better before opening your eyes. Then I know if the process I'm trying improves things or I'm fooling myself.
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Post by drbill on Aug 24, 2017 13:22:57 GMT -6
^^^ Yup. That's what I do. I can still hear the dust when I don't know if I can't tell where the "click" is. Monitoring, Room condition, D/A, ears, etc. all come into play. If you're lacking in one or more, that could potentially be the problem. Maybe??? Or maybe I just have magic "guessing skills". |
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