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Post by drbill on Aug 25, 2017 11:01:28 GMT -6
Wasn't referring directly to you ragan , and I wasn't surprised at all, but I will say the placebo comment was a little passive/agressive. I never mentioned that these were night and day differences - only that I felt them made my mixes sound better - to me. These threads generally go down an ugly hole fairly quickly - and from a couple previous posts I can see this one heading there. I prefer not to go there, so I'm checking out. I'll say one last thing to kind of clarify where I'm coming from in my comments, then I AM out. I work quickly. When I find something that tickles me or makes me smile, I go with it. Period. I never second guess it. It empowers me, motivates me, pushes me forward, makes me FEEL "right". I'm totally aware that I might be making a less than perfect, or even a "wrong" decision by choosing piece B over A or process C over D. It doesn't matter to me. Getting into lengthy "A/B" testing to prove which is better or worse kills my groove. It makes me DOUBT if the choice I made is best. It de-motivates me. It destroys creativity. (notice I said for "me" not for "you".) Having all options available at the flick of a patch cord or click of a mouse cost me a LOT of $$$. Tens of thousands in wire, bays and infrastructure. But IMO, it makes is super easy for me so that I can work fast, make instant decisions and move quickly without fumbling around for a cable, pulling out a rack and hindering my creativity. And that is my #1 imperative in my studio. We work in a creative field, yet there is a lot of tech to wrap our minds around. I protect my creative muse at all costs. For me, that means ditching this thread for better or worse. You may empirically prove that dither does absolutely nothing. You may be scientifically and irrefutably correct. But listening and reading between the lines on all this tech stuff is not really my idea of a good time, so I move on to something more fun. I take the same tact in many aspects of my creative work. When I built the new studio, I ABSOLUTELY wanted a window, and french doors so that I could enjoy the beauty of the forest around me. It was in large part the reason I moved out of LA. Many designers told me that doing so would break their sacred and "correct" studio design rules. Fine. I chose not to work with them. Hedback took all my quirks and designed around them - that was a win/win for me and paid off big-time by bolstering my creative output and desire to get into the studio and start carving. I'm well aware that in a perfect world, we would all strive to make the "right" and "perfect" decisions, but I don't live there, and I'd be willing to bet my new studio that none of you do either. I choose to made decisions that empower, motivate, generate creativity, and propel me forward in what is a very difficult endeavor -- earning a living making music. If that means I need what you called a "placebo", I'm 100% OK with that if it helps bring out the creative muse. A/Bing files? Some dig it. And that's also 100% OK with me. Some like yourself want "proof". That's OK with me too. But it's not my thing. It's not where I'm headed. This is a pillar of how I work, and it's helped me span close to 3 decades of paid creative work. I'm not likely to change soon. LOL Hope you all have a great weekend and take my comments as how I intended them - as a description of how I work and what I hear. Let the placebo and delusional jokes begin..... |
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Post by Bender on Aug 25, 2017 11:37:07 GMT -6
A/Bing files? Some dig it. And that's also 100% OK with me. Some like yourself want "proof". That's OK with me too. But it's not my thing. It's not where I'm headed. This is a pillar of how I work, and it's helped me span close to 3 decades of paid creative work. I'm not likely to change soon. LOL Hope you all have a great weekend and take my comments as how I intended them - as a description of how I work and what I hear. Let the placebo and delusional jokes begin..... Not trying to stir the pot ,nor do I have a dog in the dither debate,but the fact is, ragan posted the A B and NO ONE has been able to point out the differences; even when its in your preferred audio wheelhouse Bill. So naturally the above quote seems like a chicken out in my eyes, particularly when it was your reply that really kicked this in the malicious direction, and it ain't the 1st time as many of us know..... In any case if there is indeed a difference I certainly can't hear them;though if this glaring dithering mathematical error is indeed the case/real then why haven't any DAW manufacturers corrected this &/or made it a point to highlight this correction with a feature that " all the other DAWS are getting wrong"...i.e. building in an auto dither for audio inserts or something comparable then marketing the SH&^$% out of it.... I can't hear a difference and unfortunately I suspect this thread taking a turn into what Chase already described when he tried discussing this with samples. I can hear everyone chat math all day but the ear's don't lie; and yes of course those are on the heads of the beholders.... but to make this even more interesting here's some math for the older veterans I found about hearing loss as you age...   |
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Post by drbill on Aug 25, 2017 11:52:02 GMT -6
A/Bing files? Some dig it. And that's also 100% OK with me. Some like yourself want "proof". That's OK with me too. But it's not my thing. It's not where I'm headed. This is a pillar of how I work, and it's helped me span close to 3 decades of paid creative work. I'm not likely to change soon. LOL Hope you all have a great weekend and take my comments as how I intended them - as a description of how I work and what I hear. Let the placebo and delusional jokes begin..... Not trying to stir the pot ,nor do I have a dog in the dither debate,but the fact is, ragan posted the A B and NO ONE has been able to point out the differences; even when its in your preferred audio wheelhouse Bill. So naturally the above quote seems like a chicken out in my eyes, particularly when it was your reply that really kicked this in the malicious direction, and it ain't the 1st time as many of us know..... In any case if there is indeed a difference I certainly can't hear them;though if this glaring dithering mathematical error is indeed the case/real then why haven't any DAW manufacturers corrected this &/or made it a point to highlight this correction with a feature that " all the other DAWS are getting wrong"...i.e. building in an auto dither for audio inserts or something comparable then marketing the SH&^$% out of it.... I can't hear a difference and unfortunately I suspect this thread taking a turn into what Chase already described when he tried discussing this with samples. I can hear everyone chat math all day but the ear's don't lie; and yes of course those are on the heads of the beholders.... but to make this even more interesting here's some math for the older veterans I found about hearing loss as you age... "Not trying to stir the pot, but here, let me stir the pot" is kind of disingenuous isn't it? I will happily stipulate up front without even downloading that I wouldn't be able to hear a difference if that makes you feel better. But Ragan's approach and mine, our gear, our sound samples, our converters, our work flow, etc. are not the same. I do not dispute his facts. Refer to my description above - if it's bias or a happy place placebo, I'm 100% OK with that. If you feel it's copping out, feel free to put me on ignore or disregard anything I have to say from this point out. I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVE A POINT - just sharing my personal experience. I won't be drawn into a BS A/Bing discussion of science vs. creativity. (PS - I once proved incontrovertibly that the 2 DAW;s I was using didn't null and that created a hundred page $#@!storm that lasted for months if not years. Obviously, I checked out after getting trashed for weeks.....as Austin would say : "Science - it's not my bag baby"...  ) |
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Post by lcr on Aug 25, 2017 13:46:15 GMT -6
I just listened and guitar B sounds like AM radio compared to A so guitar B must be not dithered. Seriously, I think a better A/B would be comparing 16 or more summed or hardware inserted channels. I will hopefully have time next wk to do my little test.
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Post by donr on Aug 25, 2017 13:49:04 GMT -6
I think what Bob O. said about multiple mics/trks recording room tone makes sense as far as audibility of non-dither'ed truncation distortion. On my laptop with AKG 712 cans, I couldn't hear more (any) noise or distortion on either of Ragan's clips.
I asked MOTU's Dave Roberts about what DP does with its Hardware I/O plug, and he said DP presents the send with a 24bit fixed signal, and DP doesn't dither on the way out.
DP doesn't dither the 2 mix output either unless you want it to, there's dither in the Masterworks Limiter. He did recommend dither whenever reducing the output bit depth.
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Post by ragan on Aug 25, 2017 13:49:15 GMT -6
Wasn't referring directly to you ragan , and I wasn't surprised at all, but I will say the placebo comment was a little passive/agressive. I never mentioned that these were night and day differences - only that I felt them made my mixes sound better - to me. These threads generally go down an ugly hole fairly quickly - and from a couple previous posts I can see this one heading there. I prefer not to go there, so I'm checking out. I'll say one last thing to kind of clarify where I'm coming from in my comments, then I AM out. I work quickly. When I find something that tickles me or makes me smile, I go with it. Period. I never second guess it. It empowers me, motivates me, pushes me forward, makes me FEEL "right". I'm totally aware that I might be making a less than perfect, or even a "wrong" decision by choosing piece B over A or process C over D. It doesn't matter to me. Getting into lengthy "A/B" testing to prove which is better or worse kills my groove. It makes me DOUBT if the choice I made is best. It de-motivates me. It destroys creativity. (notice I said for "me" not for "you".) Having all options available at the flick of a patch cord or click of a mouse cost me a LOT of $$$. Tens of thousands in wire, bays and infrastructure. But IMO, it makes is super easy for me so that I can work fast, make instant decisions and move quickly without fumbling around for a cable, pulling out a rack and hindering my creativity. And that is my #1 imperative in my studio. We work in a creative field, yet there is a lot of tech to wrap our minds around. I protect my creative muse at all costs. For me, that means ditching this thread for better or worse. You may empirically prove that dither does absolutely nothing. You may be scientifically and irrefutably correct. But listening and reading between the lines on all this tech stuff is not really my idea of a good time, so I move on to something more fun. I take the same tact in many aspects of my creative work. When I built the new studio, I ABSOLUTELY wanted a window, and french doors so that I could enjoy the beauty of the forest around me. It was in large part the reason I moved out of LA. Many designers told me that doing so would break their sacred and "correct" studio design rules. Fine. I chose not to work with them. Hedback took all my quirks and designed around them - that was a win/win for me and paid off big-time by bolstering my creative output and desire to get into the studio and start carving. I'm well aware that in a perfect world, we would all strive to make the "right" and "perfect" decisions, but I don't live there, and I'd be willing to bet my new studio that none of you do either. I choose to made decisions that empower, motivate, generate creativity, and propel me forward in what is a very difficult endeavor -- earning a living making music. If that means I need what you called a "placebo", I'm 100% OK with that if it helps bring out the creative muse. A/Bing files? Some dig it. And that's also 100% OK with me. Some like yourself want "proof". That's OK with me too. But it's not my thing. It's not where I'm headed. This is a pillar of how I work, and it's helped me span close to 3 decades of paid creative work. I'm not likely to change soon. LOL Hope you all have a great weekend and take my comments as how I intended them - as a description of how I work and what I hear. Let the placebo and delusional jokes begin..... Hey Bill. Fair enough and I genuinely appreciate hearing other peoples' (like your) perspective. Just to clarify, I meant "placebo" purely descriptively, no polemics or rhetoric intended. I meant that either this thing is real or it's placebo. That's the exact term for that option. One of them is true and I'm open to either. I'm as susceptible to placebo as anyone. Proven that to myself over and over. But agin, I'm not stating that this whole thing is placebo, I'm just genuinely curious in the actual answer, if it can be had. I haven't an ounce of interest in pissing contests and that's not why I like blind AB's. I just find them extremely useful. You suggested that maybe it was a difference in our ears, rooms or gear that was responsible for the the different experiences with this and that you found acoustic guitar particularly revealing. I thought well that's easy to check out and uploaded an example. That's all. I don't care to be right or wrong here, hell I don't even really have an opinion yet. But if you can hear a difference where I can't, that would tell me (and everyone else) something about what's at the root of this stuff. That's all. I seriously doubt this thread is gonna get "ugly" or anywhere near it. No reason in the world for it to. |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 25, 2017 13:58:56 GMT -6
Well, they're not mine, and they're not "crappy", but Chris J at Airwindows has a number of different dither plugins. I'd be curious to hear what you might think of them. AAX only please. Oh, right. He writes for AU (and now VST) but not AAX. My bad. |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 25, 2017 14:11:41 GMT -6
The only time dither isn't needed is when the numbers are being copied unchanged. Even if the distortion is inaudible at one point, subsequent processing can make it audible. My authority is Jim Johnston of Bell Labs where digital audio and signal processing was invented. In his words: "If you don't dither, the math is wrong!" The idea of it being optional is a myth. It is lots less noticeable in floating point handoffs because they are the equivalent of turning everything up to full scale and then back down again but dither is still required for conversion to fixed point. My experience has been that if the audio has ever been truncated, the effect of dither becomes less noticeable. I assume this is because the distortion is masking it. In my life I have been privileged to meet a very few of the true geniuses of audio. JJ is one of them. He chairs the subgroup for perceptual audio at AES, among other things. Totally amazing guy. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 25, 2017 14:46:29 GMT -6
I think I'll bow out of this now before it gets really ugly. But just to clarify -- I'm not here to prove anything, my only thoughts were to share my personal experience in my studio with my gear and my ears. Which of course are different than all of yours. ChaseUTB - I certainly hope you weren't referring to my comments about room, D/A, ears, program material etc. - which of course are all different. Anyway, all, do what sounds best to each of you. ragan - sounds like you got your answer. <thumbsup> Cheers, bp  Ugly? You lost me. I was just trying what you suggested and said I couldn't hear it and you expressed a lot of surprise at that so I uploaded the samples for you to hear. I'm just interested in what the truth of the matter is. Maybe that truth is that you can't hear it in this sample but can in others. I have no idea. It is always telling to me though when opinions seem to evaporate once there is actual audio present.
Funny that - I'm sure there's some odd type of inverse law. Some sort of chart with, Y axis actual difference between files. X axis number of engineers willing to publicly choose. I can picture the curve now  Seriously though, I've never run 32 or 64 channels of I/O in a hybrid rig and considering it takes only a few moments to add dither plugins then it only takes a few moments to check if it's making a material difference. And even if you can't hear it there's no issue leaving the dither plugins in there if you think you should be dithering. I only put hardware on my 2 bus, I don't dither going out of Cubase into my HEDD 192 as I simply cannot hear it making the slightest difference. As my music then goes onto Spotify etc it actually never sees a dither plugin. I'm a dither free zone :-) |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Aug 25, 2017 15:40:03 GMT -6
I think I'll bow out of this now before it gets really ugly. But just to clarify -- I'm not here to prove anything, my only thoughts were to share my personal experience in my studio with my gear and my ears. Which of course are different than all of yours. ChaseUTB - I certainly hope you weren't referring to my comments about room, D/A, ears, program material etc. - which of course are all different - no putdown or offense meant in anything I said. Anyway, all, do what sounds best to each of you. ragan - sounds like you got your answer. <thumbsup> Cheers, bp Yeah seemed like they were aimed at me.. not sure why either.. I was the only one at that point who did the test and was providing my feedback/ results... I also inferred that results may vary depending on HW I/O count and included your name as one who may be able to provide the rest of us some valuable info regarding the dithering I/O but you have bowed out of the discussion right after files are posted. jcoutu1 was hoping you could get this going, you have lots of HW I/O, I am interested in your results definitely, hoping they can provide more insight 😀 |
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Post by wiz on Aug 25, 2017 16:05:59 GMT -6
Bit Depth , Sample Rate, Dither.... the equivalent of having Xmas dinner with relatives and discussing politics and religion.
The misunderstanding of those things is really widespread.
Combine that with not enough technical information from Manufacturers, and you have a mine field.
I am not surprised that you don't pick up on dither, on a single track.
Does not mean it won't be picked up on someone else's example of many tracks, or even a stereo mix though.
As with all things audio, try it, move on... make music.
Dither matters, everything matters... or it doesn't
your choice
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by drbill on Aug 25, 2017 16:36:09 GMT -6
I think I'll bow out of this now before it gets really ugly. But just to clarify -- I'm not here to prove anything, my only thoughts were to share my personal experience in my studio with my gear and my ears. Which of course are different than all of yours. ChaseUTB - I certainly hope you weren't referring to my comments about room, D/A, ears, program material etc. - which of course are all different - no putdown or offense meant in anything I said. Anyway, all, do what sounds best to each of you. ragan - sounds like you got your answer. <thumbsup> Cheers, bp Yeah seemed like they were aimed at me.. Nope. Nothing aimed at you. Didn't even know that you posted files. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 25, 2017 16:37:54 GMT -6
but you have bowed out of the discussion right after files are posted. I bowed out for the reasons posted above. Some of which I felt coming from you. Take it or leave it, my reasons are (I think anyway) clear and obvious. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Aug 25, 2017 20:43:19 GMT -6
but you have bowed out of the discussion right after files are posted. I bowed out for the reasons posted above. Some of which I felt coming from you. Take it or leave it, my reasons are (I think anyway) clear and obvious. Wow, what is your problem? I said nothing to you until i quoted you. Maybe you need to re read the thread and relax some... I tag you or quote you if I am speaking to you. I was looking for real world evidence and thought you could provide that it you wanted too. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 25, 2017 20:45:12 GMT -6
I bowed out for the reasons posted above. Some of which I felt coming from you. Take it or leave it, my reasons are (I think anyway) clear and obvious. Wow, what is your problem? I said nothing to you until i quoted you. Maybe you need to re read the thread and relax some... I tag you or quote you if I am speaking to you. I was looking for real world evidence and thought you could provide that it you wanted too. I'm totally relaxed! You? |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Aug 25, 2017 21:08:32 GMT -6
Wow, what is your problem? I said nothing to you until i quoted you. Maybe you need to re read the thread and relax some... I tag you or quote you if I am speaking to you. I was looking for real world evidence and thought you could provide that it you wanted too. I'm totally relaxed! You? Yeah the whole thread you make demonstrative statements saying there is a definite difference. Then likened it to a cheap neve transformer to a carnhill.. you say there is magic dust.. you hear it regardless ... you say acoustic guitars are most obvious, but then say you can't really hear it on a dense busy mix. Ragan posted two quick snippets and now all of a sudden you don't want to take 10 seconds to give feedback on Ragan's files when you been typing books. Then you say you don't care if it is placebo but in the first page you said it's not pacebo and if it was you would sell all your gear or something along those lines trying to affirm to others the difference you hear using dither.. I was searching some type of info because my testing or my ears don't discern a difference on the testing I did... I am not anti dither I am pro learning sorry that's a problem for you and makes you want to bow out of the thread ... |
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Post by ragan on Aug 25, 2017 21:21:42 GMT -6
Well now I just look like a dumbass cause I was sure nothing would get ugly.
Let's keep it unemotional!
There's an answer. Maybe we can have it, maybe we can't but we can certainly get each others' perspectives without devolving into defensiveness and spite.
This (pretend) round of drinks is on me. Let's keep it civil!
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Post by drbill on Aug 25, 2017 21:25:59 GMT -6
I'm totally relaxed! You? Yeah the whole thread you make demonstrative statements saying there is a definite difference. Then likened it to a cheap neve transformer to a carnhill.. you say there is magic dust.. you hear it regardless ... you say acoustic guitars are most obvious, but then say you can't really hear it on a dense busy mix. Ragan posted two quick snippets and now all of a sudden you don't want to take 10 seconds to give feedback on Ragan's files when you been typing books. Then you say you don't care if it is placebo but in the first page you said it's not pacebo and if it was you would sell all your gear or something along those lines trying to affirm to others the difference you hear using dither.. I was searching some type of info because my testing or my ears don't discern a difference on the testing I did... I am not anti dither I am pro learning sorry that's a problem for you and makes you want to bow out of the thread ... You're making some very broad and misjudged assumptions on what I said/say, hear and believe. First, my opinion is mine - and nothing more than my opinion. I don't expect you to fall in line with my conclusions and I'm not telling you what you should believe. As best I know, I get to make demonstrative statements for me - and I don't get to order you what to believe or say. That's the freedom we both share. In regards to your interpretation of what I said, I said the first time I dithered I did it on a very transient, and open bunch of guitar focused pieces of music. I had a very positive EMOTIONAL change in feeling after A/Bing the dither. I also said that SOME times there is an obvious difference to me, and other times not so much. I never said I "hear it regardless", and I never said it was "night and day" as you or someone else interpreted. I stand by my comment about the amount of difference between a cheap Neve transformers as compared to a Carnhill being roughly the same difference as a dithered mix to an undithered mix -- in my hybrid hardware insert approach. That was an example / comparison meant to illustrate what I feel the amount of difference is in an area that people tend to go gaga nuts over. i.e. Nevedom. In other words - it's minutae, but it is audible and it is important. (I've had to spend a lot of time listening to transformers......) And just to reiterate so as not to confuse, my opinions are couched in ProL's dither, not dither in general. I haven't had a chance to use them all. Yeah, I hear it. Placebo? Expectation Bias? Actual Difference? You can choose for you. I get to choose for me. I laid out above that I'm happy to assert that there's no difference in Ragan's files, but I have no idea what gear, etc. he's using. Nor do I care. Because my EARS lead me, not popular opinion - and my ears, here, told me dither = good. But that's not good enough for you because? Dude, you've been a trip the last couple of weeks..... If you can't discern a difference, I'd suggest that you don't dither, or if you feel like having faith in what smarter people than I have said, then go ahead and dither. But don't do either on my account. We both know it won't make our music any better than the raw material we have. Me? I'll continue to dither. It makes me FEEL the mixes are better. So I mix better, dig in harder, go for a deeper more transcendent mix - and that DOES make a quantifiable difference for me. That's everything for me, and that's why you get the demonstrative statements about subjects that IMO are just opinion and are not slated as a general population mandate. Is that OK? If that is just too much for you, let me know and I'll try to pull back on the personal opinions on my end. And hey - if you're a Carnhill fan and that's what bummed you out - I apologize. I really do LIKE Carnhills. |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 25, 2017 23:33:59 GMT -6
I'm totally relaxed! You? Yeah the whole thread you make demonstrative statements saying there is a definite difference. Then likened it to a cheap neve transformer to a carnhill.. you say there is magic dust.. you hear it regardless ... you say acoustic guitars are most obvious, but then say you can't really hear it on a dense busy mix. Ragan posted two quick snippets and now all of a sudden you don't want to take 10 seconds to give feedback on Ragan's files when you been typing books. Then you say you don't care if it is placebo but in the first page you said it's not pacebo and if it was you would sell all your gear or something along those lines trying to affirm to others the difference you hear using dither.. I was searching some type of info because my testing or my ears don't discern a difference on the testing I did... I am not anti dither I am pro learning sorry that's a problem for you and makes you want to bow out of the thread ... There are some audio phenomena that some people can hear plainly and some people can't. Often people who can't but are receptive to the idea can train their ears to hear what they couldn't before, given appropriate guidance*. This to me indicates that it's probably a function of the filtering system in the brain. There is mounting evidence that the brain receives far more audio information than one is consciously aware of. Differences show on an MRI when the subject reports hearing no difference. And I am quite relaxed and in the process of becoming more so in my attempt to get to sleep before 3AM.... * - like hearing the difference between different qualities of capacitor in a microphone, for example. Or other audio circuit..... |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 26, 2017 8:24:07 GMT -6
Dither is the equivalent of adding AC bias to the signal being recorded to analog tape. The only reason it was ever made optional was to reduce CPU overhead in order to allow the use of more bells and whistles. With today's computers there is no legitimate reason for DAWs to not simply handle it. Unfortunately most developers only know how to assemble code libraries with no real knowledge of the math involved. It's the difference between plugging chips together and building an amplifier from component parts.
I just tried out Good Dither and it seems to do the job of 24 bit Dither in Pro Tools with no latency at least in stereo. Finally! It has a good reputation but had only been available in AU until this week.
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Post by lcr on Aug 26, 2017 10:40:21 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing good dither, never heard of it. From the site "When should I use dither?
Every time you reduce the audio bit depth you should dither to prevent distortion and quantization error. 24 bit → 16 bit, 32 bit → 24 bit — any time you reduce the word length."
Im at 32 bit float, but if your at 24 bit session formats I take it good dither doesnt think dithering is nessessary for hardware inserts or summing?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 26, 2017 10:55:06 GMT -6
Virtually all first rate hardware will truncate to 24 so it requires dither in order to avoid distortion. I didn't see that but it wouldn't be the first time a developer got this wrong.
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Post by ragan on Aug 26, 2017 13:18:29 GMT -6
Hey so I just did another round of blind AB'ing those same files I posted earlier and I picked the dithered version every time.
I'm not putting them into an ABX app or anything, I just set it up so I can swap back and forth with a keystroke and close my eyes and start going back and forth and when I come up with a preference, open my eyes and see which it is. Almost felt like I was making it up, but if so, I just 'made up' a preference for the dithered version about 8x in a row.
Just a tiny bit of added clarity. A minuscule amount, but I kept picking the dithered version. The other night, I straight up couldn't come up with a preference at all.
So definitely gonna try it some more with more channels and on other sources, just thought I'd share.
Edit: and then now I just did a few where I picked the undithered version and again felt like I was just kinda guessing. Jury's out for me but I'm definitely gonna try a bunch more comparing.
Edit II: doing some drum OH, now I'm back to random guessing, picking the dithered sometimes, undithered sometimes, can't hear any difference right now
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2017 13:46:34 GMT -6
Yeah, I've not done that test in a few years, but that was my conclusion too. Started using Sonoris Dither about a decade ago, then TBDither, and recently AirWindows NJAD (which is free). I'm mastering only, so it's always two track stereo, but I have had a dither plugin before the analogue chain, and again before final digital render, nearly forever. I seem to remember I heard a little bit more 3D/depth in the dithered file when blind A/Bing. I should probably do it again too!
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 26, 2017 19:59:38 GMT -6
Hey so I just did another round of blind AB'ing those same files I posted earlier and I picked the dithered version every time. I'm not putting them into an ABX app or anything, I just set it up so I can swap back and forth with a keystroke and close my eyes and start going back and forth and when I come up with a preference, open my eyes and see which it is. Almost felt like I was making it up, but if so, I just 'made up' a preference for the dithered version about 8x in a row. Just a tiny bit of added clarity. A minuscule amount, but I kept picking the dithered version. The other night, I straight up couldn't come up with a preference at all. So definitely gonna try it some more with more channels and on other sources, just thought I'd share. Edit: and then now I just did a few where I picked the undithered version and again felt like I was just kinda guessing. Jury's out for me but I'm definitely gonna try a bunch more comparing. Edit II: doing some drum OH, now I'm back to random guessing, picking the dithered sometimes, undithered sometimes, can't hear any difference right now I think your ear is becoming educated to this particular issue. And AB testing tends to bias the ear towards confusion, as I noted previously. |
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