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Post by lcr on Aug 22, 2017 8:02:49 GMT -6
Question (please) for those who use analog summing or hardware inserts.. do you use a dither plug-in in the last insert slot of tracks? I read many opinions about the need to even dither at all, just wanted to hear peoples latest opinions here regarding dithering for summing and hardware inserts. If this has already been discussed here 1000,000 times I apologize and will delete this thread.
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 22, 2017 8:41:36 GMT -6
I use the I/O plug in with Pro Tools, never any dither plug ins.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 22, 2017 8:47:01 GMT -6
I can't ever keep up with all of this stuff. I think Bob says to dither anything that gets bounced (that has any sort of change done to it) even if it's going to the same bit rate...
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 22, 2017 8:52:06 GMT -6
The word is that you should. I don't.
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Post by drbill on Aug 22, 2017 9:34:46 GMT -6
Dither before each D/A on inserts here. So.....Dither, I/o out to LA2a, back in, Dither, out to Silver Bullet, back in, etc., etc. Makes for a lot of dither plugs..... :-)
Does make an audible difference. I do it without dither when I'm rushing or lazy, but dithering before output does make a diff.
Currently using the dither in ProL.
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Post by bradd on Aug 22, 2017 9:36:04 GMT -6
I just started doing this based upon Bob's advice. I haven't done enough with it yet to determine if I can hear a difference.
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Post by stormymondays on Aug 22, 2017 10:23:52 GMT -6
I followed the whole discussion on the "purple" site, as well a shorter one here, I think. On Logic Pro X, I hear absolutely no difference, cumulative or otherwise. In the end, I decided that whoever coded the I/O plugin must have known what they were doing.
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Post by lcr on Aug 22, 2017 11:37:18 GMT -6
Hmm... kinda like I should HP gently on the 2 buss, but If I sometimes don't it might be ok? Sorry, probably not a good comparison..
So do any A/B's exist comparing using dither on individual hardware inserts and summing? If not, maybe I or someone should make a comparison and see if we can hear a difference?
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Post by drbill on Aug 22, 2017 11:52:07 GMT -6
Why look for someone elses answers?
Are you using hardware inserts on your mixes? Drop a good dither plugin before each of your hardware inserts, make a quick mix, and then bypass them, make another mix. Compare the two. If you're equipped with ears and decent monitoring, you should be able to make a quick discernment about which you like better. Shouldn't take more than a few minutes of your time, and you have the answer you seek....in YOUR studio on YOUR music with YOUR gear. <thumbsup>
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 12:11:40 GMT -6
Always do it, have done for years, mostly based on two of the three Bobs advice.
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Post by lcr on Aug 22, 2017 12:58:38 GMT -6
Why look for someone elses answers? Are you using hardware inserts on your mixes? Drop a good dither plugin before each of your hardware inserts, make a quick mix, and then bypass them, make another mix. Compare the two. If you're equipped with ears and decent monitoring, you should be able to make a quick discernment about which you like better. Shouldn't take more than a few minutes of your time, and you have the answer you seek....in YOUR studio on YOUR music with YOUR gear. <thumbsup> This is exactly what I mentioned one post before this. I will test and report back. |
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Post by stormymondays on Aug 22, 2017 13:26:10 GMT -6
This is exactly what I mentioned one post before this. I will test and report back. Let us know which DAW you're using, since this may make a significant difference. |
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Post by swurveman on Aug 22, 2017 14:16:00 GMT -6
The word is that you should. I don't. I don't either. |
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Post by svart on Aug 22, 2017 14:55:16 GMT -6
So someone explain to me why you'd want to dither your hardware outputs again..
Why would you do this when the analog noise floor is likely higher than your sampling noise unless you just like burning plugin horsepower..?
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Post by jampa on Aug 22, 2017 15:54:59 GMT -6
From what I make of it...
The signal leaving the software is truncated - the dither effect requires a noise to be added before truncation so that it can "blend" in with the lowest bit. Noise added after this truncation won't "blend" in with the lowest bit in the same way because the lowest bit has already been "decided" upon leaving the computer.
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Post by wiz on Aug 22, 2017 15:59:24 GMT -6
I do....
I place a dither plug in, prior to the IO plug in in logic.
Its easy enough to test ... set up a IO plug in on each track going out and back in... do as many as your set up allows...I did about 16 IIRC, and bypass them all at once, and see if you can tell.
after doing that, I started doing it.
Is it make or break.. no.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by c0rtland on Aug 22, 2017 19:46:44 GMT -6
I use doublepaul before any insert or any channel going out of my converters. If I bounce a track in place itb I dither with doublepaul. (Selection based processing, bounce in place). njad is last on my 2buss. I can hear a difference. I can also hear e difference between different dithers. It's a real thing.
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Post by drbill on Aug 22, 2017 19:49:21 GMT -6
I use the dither in Fabfilter's ProL without any limiting as suggested by DanD. I can absolutely hear a difference on one source, but multiple sources becomes more apparent. Almost sounds like some kind of magic they do.....
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Post by c0rtland on Aug 22, 2017 20:11:58 GMT -6
I use the dither in Fabfilter's ProL without any limiting as suggested by DanD. I can absolutely hear a difference on one source, but multiple sources becomes more apparent. Almost sounds like some kind of magic they do..... mathematical mages |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 22, 2017 20:50:45 GMT -6
So, when will DAWs just have the dithering happening every time you output a signal?
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Post by ChaseUTB on Aug 23, 2017 2:12:09 GMT -6
Placebo.... my buddy just tested me never better than 5/10 on a/B test...
Basically him looping audio and bypassing and unbypassing dither ... also are we talking triangular / tpdf/ powr3 / mbit+ ? Lots of dither options and most pro tools dither is 16/18/20 bit no thanks ... also tried with waves IDR same result ... funny when I inserted the dither I " heard a difference " when I bypassed the dither plug I heard a difference .. but when my buddy does it and I am blind tested I am not hearing this same difference as me clicking the plugins bypass...
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 23, 2017 6:54:07 GMT -6
I have a question for all you multi-channel Plug in Dither people,
Does that stack noise on the mix like waves plugs? Because that would annoy me.
The only time I use Dither is when I make a 16 bit from a 24 bit file.
If you are using 24 bit converters, you are not truncating any bits, why does dithering help your 24 bit AD/DA converter chain?
I hate noise more than anything else, and I just use a nice quality dither program to truncate a digital file.
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Post by rocinante on Aug 23, 2017 9:26:44 GMT -6
Because of the last conversation that we had about dithering on this forum, you guys totally scared the shit out of me and I was like: "oh fuck! I better start dithering everything!"
I don't know. I have no A/B but it's been working fine for about the last 7-8 years of using mostly analog gear and I've been using multiple hardware inserts nearly the entire time. I tried it for a few sessions then stopped giving enough of this shit when I didn't really hear a difference. To be honest i only use dithering when I have to up sample or down sample. I'm sure Bob's right cause it's fucking Bob, but I just haven't heard enough of a difference and I've never felt like there was a loss of quality and like I said I use external hardware in every session often with 10+ pieces of gear. Maybe if I used higher end ADDA I would notice.
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Post by ragan on Aug 23, 2017 9:40:31 GMT -6
For me, personally, I'm a lot more interested in what an EE like Chris has to say than what people "hear", unless they can also hear it blind.
That's not meant as a slight, it's just I've "heard" lots and lots and lots and lots of things that turned out to not actually be there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 11:06:47 GMT -6
As far as I am aware, most DAW's internal resolution is 32 bit float or higher, so as soon as you hit a 24 bit DAC to the analogue insert, you'll be truncating that, unless you add dither as the final digital process. Of course some DAWs or converters may be set to do this automatically. I add dither every time I reduce the word length, whether that be purely in the digital domain, or before an analogue loop or the monitoring chain when using a fixed point 24 bit DAC. Having said that, I can't hear much of a difference, but I do it as standard practice to be technically correct/achieve the best theoretical sound quality. Bob O. will hopefully chime in, but I believe he's mentioned that truncation (and other forms of digital distortion) can accumulate, and as audio invariably ends up being further processed on the users end these days (gain changes, EQ, plugins, conversion to lossy formats etc.), it can become an audible problem, and it's therefore "best practice" to dither. |
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