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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 18, 2017 17:45:58 GMT -6
Hyperbole: where, was just stating the facts; doesn't matter to me what you record with, as long as it works for you: thats what counts !
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2017 18:23:55 GMT -6
I'm happy that you that you have your new Symphony, you're certainly enthusiastic about it. But the like I said, I don't use the AD or DA of the BF. But I wouldn't cry if I had to use the BF Apollo. Let's not get carried away with hyperbole. You are using 8 channels of DA though right? Wouldn't those 8 channels be a step down the the Focusrite? I don't know. That's the million dollar question.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2017 18:25:11 GMT -6
Hyperbole: where, was just stating the facts; doesn't matter to me what you record with, as long as it works for you: thats what counts ! I've just seen you post a few places that it was a major difference. But hey - maybe you're right. I think sometimes I forget that I don't ever actually hear the Apollo.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 18, 2017 21:37:10 GMT -6
I don't think I used the term major but I recall finding the difference significant and that I characteristized it like the soundstage increasing like 20-30 % in all dimensions and the liniarity. I was just trying to describe my sense of the difference listening to my own songs that I knew well but on the Apollo, all other things being the same. One thing I do think is significantly better, is the quality of the headphone outs. But the proof is, of course, in the pudding and you are used to the sound of your normal:the SB AD and dbox DA(?),which I recall being quite different from that shoot out: also with the burl. The only box of these I haven't owned is the svartbox which is why I said I can't compare to it. Now that I have had and worked with the symphony mkii for a few months and built and mixed whole songs with it and shared working mixes with discerning friends, here, like Ragan and Martin, who comment constructively on the increased cohesion of my mixes, I wish I could say it's all my burgeoning talent , but I think it's as simple as simply being able to hear my mixes better and into their components and the soundstage of my mix better due to the symphony mkii ? I am also only using the wa87 and think I prefer the fet and also liking the wa412 API style pre but I had tb12s before but my mixes were less coherent. Maybe there's a little sonic serendipity happening or I've just gone through that first 10,000 hours, as opposed to dollars, which was a ways back!
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Post by ChaseUTB on Mar 18, 2017 22:35:10 GMT -6
Hyperbole: where, was just stating the facts; doesn't matter to me what you record with, as long as it works for you: thats what counts ! I've just seen you post a few places that it was a major difference. But hey - maybe you're right. I think sometimes I forget that I don't ever actually hear the Apollo. Do you use the 8 DA outputs from the BF Apollo into the DBox?
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Post by ragan on Mar 18, 2017 23:14:49 GMT -6
For my .02, I don't think the ADC is worlds apart on the BF Apollo and Symphony MKII, but there is a difference and I preferred the Symphony. I've described it as a 'frustrating' difference. Frustrating because the Symphony costs a lot more and offers a lot less, feature wise. No preamps, one headphone out, obviously no DSP, you've got to eat up 2 line outs for monitoring, can't use any I/O without DSub cables, etc. For that cost discrepancy, I wanted the Symphony to mop the floor with the Apollo. It doesn't.
It does sound better (to me) but it's not enormous. BUT IT'STHERE. But it's not huge. BUT IT'S THERE. Frustrating.
The DAC is another story. Symphony MKII is significantly better than the Apollo. And as John mentioned, the MKII DA sounds shockingly similar to the D Box DA. Enough that when I first hooked it up to swap back and forth, I thought I'd done something wrong. I couldn't hear a difference at all swapping back and forth. Then I started to hear it. Took some getting used to but I started to hear it. Symphony had the edge. But just by a little. Just a little more detail, depth. A LITTLE.
But for me that was a big deal because with the D Box setup I only got that DA on the monitors, not all the line outs. When I started using the Symphony for HW inserts, I could hear the overall sonic upgrade.
Anyway. I'm keeping the Symphony. Means I'm gonna have to get a Satellite to run my UAD plugs. And I'll need more preamps for drums. Frankly, I still love the Apollo. It packs more punch than any box out there in my opinion. I don't use it but the Unison stuff is impressive and monitoring UAD plugs is awesome, but again, I don't use it. I track with hardware. I wasn't really leveraging many of the Apollo's features in my workflow.
If I ever want/need to simplify down to a single box covering more ground, I'll go right back to the Apollo. For now though, I'm willing to throw the resources at the Symphony. It is indeed a lovely sounding box.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Mar 19, 2017 7:56:48 GMT -6
ragan amazing answer thanks
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 19, 2017 9:22:56 GMT -6
I had a similar experience with the Hilo on the DA vs. the Dbox. Hilo DA was just slightly better on bottom. Just couldn't justify the cost for the difference.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 20, 2017 14:11:52 GMT -6
Beta locked and loaded: new gui is groovy classic black, looks a winner ! seems to work fine so far: symphony mkii sounds even better signal in middle are my mikes at are hooked up and of course 2 bus out on far right. took just a few minutes to download and install
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 20, 2017 15:37:58 GMT -6
What's the effects send all about? You can connect a HW verb or something?
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 20, 2017 16:14:06 GMT -6
yes and use it while monitoring, haven't checked it out yet !
I am President of the Board where I live and we have our AGM tonight so I won't get to play with this till tomorrow, but I have played back a current session, created and armed a track jut to see that things are working.
there is no routing matrix like maestro you select mixer setting i/o from drop downs
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 20, 2017 18:14:34 GMT -6
But no onboard plug at all right?
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 20, 2017 18:49:19 GMT -6
no dsp, but my understanding is that the latency is low enough that you can access the plugs in your daw for monitoring
the new gui is all software, no chips or dsp, but also includes the remote app fro controlling symphony mkii and its on board pres, if yo have that module,
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Mar 21, 2017 2:58:31 GMT -6
that latency with plugins is determined by your DAW, not the symphony.
Direct monitoring thru the interface (not thru the DAW) will be determined by the design of the interface.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 21, 2017 8:46:53 GMT -6
So is the FX channel like a HW insert for the direct monitoring from the SmkII?
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 21, 2017 12:52:00 GMT -6
I understand is like an insert but to your plugs in in your daw( by channel). I will test tonight with logic, FF and ua plugs . This suggest you could have multiple plugs in your daw channel and it would still work. Although you will just hear them as they are in your daw you would have identical settings for tracking and for initial mixdown. I will also test Logic's utility plug in which actually is an insert in your daw to your OB just out of curiosity
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Mar 22, 2017 8:09:35 GMT -6
lol guys. You can do this with any hardware and any DAW. Set the buffer size to 32 samples. Turn on Software Monitoring. THAT'S IT. That's all Apogee is trying to sell you when they say "Low Latency Monitoring with plugins" It's not a specific feature of the Symphony or any other interface because the interface isn't doing the monitoring. the DAW is. Do not confuse this with the fact that you can monitor the DRY audio signal of your inputs WITHOUT going thru the DAW. that would be the "Near-Zero Monitoring" provided by Maestro, the new Apogee Control, UAD Console, Motu's CUEMix, etc... That would be where the signal goes into the interface, and right to the headphone port without even traveling into the computer. If plugins are involved AT ALL in the monitoring signal chain, your audio is still going into the computer, into the DAW, Thru the DAW's Mixer, and back out. the interface will NOT affect the round trip time of that loop. Check out this graphic that explains how zero latency monitoring actually works with any interface. www.rme-audio.de/img/techinfo/lola/zlm_e.gif
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 22, 2017 8:35:55 GMT -6
But @nfc, you are not using the symphony mkii (yet? )
I didn't test this last night yet but if one can use/monitor one's plugs ins while tracking with low latency now, how is it a bad thing if apogee has introduced it as a simple parameter to control in the new symphony mkii gui ?
To me it just seems like a nice conveniency feature ?
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Post by ragan on Mar 22, 2017 9:40:39 GMT -6
lol guys. You can do this with any hardware and any DAW. Set the buffer size to 32 samples. Turn on Software Monitoring. THAT'S IT. That's all Apogee is trying to sell you when they say "Low Latency Monitoring with plugins" It's not a specific feature of the Symphony or any other interface because the interface isn't doing the monitoring. the DAW is. Do not confuse this with the fact that you can monitor the DRY audio signal of your inputs WITHOUT going thru the DAW. that would be the "Near-Zero Monitoring" provided by Maestro, the new Apogee Control, UAD Console, Motu's CUEMix, etc... That would be where the signal goes into the interface, and right to the headphone port without even traveling into the computer. If plugins are involved AT ALL in the monitoring signal chain, your audio is still going into the computer, into the DAW, Thru the DAW's Mixer, and back out. the interface will NOT affect the round trip time of that loop. Check out this graphic that explains how zero latency monitoring actually works with any interface. www.rme-audio.de/img/techinfo/lola/zlm_e.gif Well you're mostly right. The interface's RTL number will still affect your monitoring latency, whether you're direct monitoring or DAW-monitoring. Also, plugins being present don't necessarily mean you're using the DAW, in UA Console you can load up all the plugs you want and it's still not in the DAW.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 22, 2017 10:16:00 GMT -6
With S mkii the plugs are definitely in your daw. Meastro used to work by splitting your signal and sending it back for monitoring.
Personally, I think being able to use plugs for monitoring from you daw with the S mkii should nice feature, not critical but nice and also indicates that Apogee was trying to add value and convincing with the update.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Mar 22, 2017 11:03:58 GMT -6
Kcat, it's not a feature tho. EVERY daw can do this.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 22, 2017 12:20:58 GMT -6
I understand but this got started with John asking about the new button as a feature in the new GUI and we have just been discussing that.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 22, 2017 14:53:57 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 22, 2017 19:22:28 GMT -6
btw set up S mkii gui as per this video and tracked with verb no probs, obviously could have used any plug in tomorrow I will try my ua plugs and see
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Post by ragan on Mar 22, 2017 22:06:30 GMT -6
Kcat, it's not a feature tho. EVERY daw can do this. It's not typically integrated into the direct monitoring app though, that is a feature. Of the app. Also, with the mobile app for the Apogge Control you can control the effect send/return level from your phone/iPad, which is actually a big deal for me, tracking myself. Not just the effects, but levels. It's still mind boggling to me that UAD hasn't released a mobile app for Console.
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