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Post by gouge on Jan 6, 2017 22:31:29 GMT -6
Wiz I'm attempting a mix of your song tonight... Am warming up auto tune for laughs as I type.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 7, 2017 1:08:12 GMT -6
Bad intonation does not equal feel, and perfect pitch does not equate to no feeling. Bad intonation makes me feel nauseous. There are singers out there who use gradients of pitch for expression, they are in the minority, okay, extreme minority. If you take your duty to a client seriously, as in making them sound as good as possible, anything in your toolbox is not only recommended, it is required. However, how much correction equals an improvement can certainly be a matter of taste. Does anybody else wish that somebody would have helped Robert Plant in the chorus of "All Of My Love"? I dunno. I hear a lot of commercially produced music where the tuning is extremely unobvious that makes me say "Too bad they tuned all the life out of it. It could have been a great song." Now it could be possible that the singer just has a really uninteresting style and delivery, but I find it hard to believe that. And no, I'm really glad that nobody "helped" Robert Plant in "Whole Lotta Love". REALLY glad. "Help" like that is one of the major problems with a lot of today's records.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 7, 2017 1:15:54 GMT -6
Antares whilst not cheap is pretty damn good and easy to use as well (it can be very transparent), I got melodyne as part of Samplitude and whilst it does the job I agree with svart . Personally, I always tune backing vocals.. It's a given, no matter how talented they are the subtle differences don't sound right in modern production.. As for lead vocals, I don't use tuning just out of pride me thinks.. I don't need it, I can stay near enough perfectly in tune but it adds a kind of sheen on vocals and it's so popular now (I wouldn't be surprised if 99% of popular modern releases use it) it can sound a little odd without it. I listen to a lot of 70's / 80's rock and I can tell with absolutely amazing singers like Bon Jovi, Axel Rose, Steve Perry. Whilst they for the most part always sound in tune nobody can sing without any slight fluctuations or variances.. Even if they are super close and awesome, we are after all human. Although can't even remember the last time I've heard a live singer that sounds as good as Steve Perry, dude has some serious pipes. I can tell when listening, so if you want that super glossy modern hi-fi sound then always stick autotune on it even if it's just used as a post effect like a compressor.. It might not do much but it adds a "sound".. I hate that "sheen". It makes me want to hit people*. And the reason you're not likely to find another Steve Perry (or whoever) any more is - Autotune. * - Well, maybe not full on assault, but at least slap 'em upside the head with a large trout while yelling "What do you think you're DOING??
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 7, 2017 5:26:01 GMT -6
I think if people want to use autotune to give the vocal a "sheen" because that's the modern production sound then great why the heck not.
Music has always been made in reference to fashion, style and technology of the day.
80's synth bands didn't say I'm not using electronic keyboards because they're not real acoustic piano's they embraced the new technology of the day.
Robert Plant, Led Zep, etc and much of the rock/soul music of the 70's is my music, it's the music of my youth and I dearly love it, but I seriously don't expect people today to be making music that sounds like that unless there doing a retro 70's project.
I don't use autotune to add sheen, I'm old school in my approach, then again I'm not trying to become a hit commercial artist.
My kids listen to music that is fully autotuned and rigidly quantised to the grid - and they love it every bit as much as I loved Led Zep.
I remember my parents telling me how much that hated Led Zep because it was a loud racket and nothing like the quality of Glen Miller and his Big Band.
Of course I've made it my duty to tell my kids how much I hate the music they listen too :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 10:50:53 GMT -6
I hate that "sheen". It makes me want to hit people*. And the reason you're not likely to find another Steve Perry (or whoever) any more is - Autotune. * - Well, maybe not full on assault, but at least slap 'em upside the head with a large trout while yelling "What do you think you're DOING?? I was brought up between the era of non-autotune then autotune, personally I don't mind it within context if it's done right by a decent engineer. As for finding great singers, it has nothing to do with Auto Tune. I've rarely if ever heard anyone try to use it live (for good reason) and that's where you find out what the singer is made of. Personally I'd rather practice my nuts off so I can get it to sound at least 95 - 99% as good as it does on a recording, to save me the hassle of making too many mistakes and people believing I'm a talentless hack when singing live. I like most, have to at least learn the song I'm singing and over time I fine tune it, but that's no different to a guitarist and songwriter starting out with a riff / scratch song and working on it until it sits right. But it does seem to be used a little too much as a safety net.. There are great singers out there, I've heard some live bands in rock / metal in my time that are excellent. They just appear to be lesser known in todays industry.. P.S autotune is rampant in modern metal as well, who'd of thunk it?
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 7, 2017 13:02:46 GMT -6
I hate that "sheen". It makes me want to hit people*. And the reason you're not likely to find another Steve Perry (or whoever) any more is - Autotune. * - Well, maybe not full on assault, but at least slap 'em upside the head with a large trout while yelling "What do you think you're DOING?? I was brought up between the era of non-autotune then autotune, personally I don't mind it within context if it's done right by a decent engineer. As for finding great singers, it has nothing to do with Auto Tune. It's not a question of finding great singers, it's a matter of developing great singers. Why should a young person put in the effort to learn to be a great singer if they belive that someone can push a button and "fix" their performance? Well, I can't say from personal experience as I don't go to those kinds of shows, but on quite a number of occasions I'm pointed out some pretty egregiously "tuned" songs to non-audio people and they've told me "That isn't autotuned - I've seen them live and they sound JUST LIKE THAT!" And it's a fairly well known fact that acts do use AT live and even that "tuning" was usede on some of thoser singing competition TV shows, not only to make the winners sound "better", but also to make the preselected losers sound worse. Over at the Purple Place I've seen a number of young guitarists enquiring how to add a chain for their vocal mic to their pedalboard so they can autotune their vocal. Tascam sells a live AT box for about $250... Just a little.... It's not surprising at all - metal ain't what it used to be, hasn't been for a good 10 or 15 years.
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Post by stratboy on Jan 7, 2017 13:39:53 GMT -6
I started with Waves Tune. Melodyne sounds much more natural. I try to use it tastefully on BVs and LVs.
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Post by Bender on Jan 7, 2017 13:46:50 GMT -6
Another vote for melodyne- helps when tracking the "locals"for sure.Worth mentioning I find the side effects of careful use negligible especially if the vocal wasn't tracked with compression.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 13:54:50 GMT -6
That's exactly why I said I put the effort in so I can pull it off live. Not sure what your point is? We seem to be agreeing for the most part?? The show you're talking about is X-factor and people called them out on their bull****. I've seen live shows where they attempted to AT vocals, but with everything going on in a live show they don't get away with it most of the time. I said they don't "tend" not to use AT live, but of course there's still quite a few that think it's a good idea.. They'll learn (maybe).. Well if they want to waste money it's up to them, again they'll realise sooner or later it's a bad idea. It's close minded to slag off an entire genre over a decade plus because you have a limited subset view of how metal "should be", there are tens of thousands of artists in metal and they aren't all bad. This applies to any genre to be honest, just because I'm not a fan of the front runners in many genre's it doesn't mean the whole entire genre is a write off. We'll firmly agree to disagree there.
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Post by stratboy on Jan 7, 2017 14:13:28 GMT -6
Metal? I've got three words for you Veil Of Maya A friend tuned me on to them. I'm not a metal fan, but they are amazing.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 7, 2017 14:46:17 GMT -6
If you must, RevoicePro and Waves real-time are the best I've heard to date. The thing to watch out for is that they can all screw up the phrasing and what it feels like to sing along. Fixing what's wrong at the expense of what's right is a common mistake today.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 7, 2017 14:59:22 GMT -6
No matter how many things you fix through editing and tuning, it's always triage which leaves something that someone will say 'should have been fixed'.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 7, 2017 15:21:44 GMT -6
Then they wonder why nobody wants to buy their "perfect" recording...
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Post by Ward on Jan 7, 2017 16:23:27 GMT -6
Perhaps in this world of almost every vocal tuned to death and perfected beyond human ability, those with truly great voices stand out.
Like Myles Kennedy.
and David Draiman.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 7, 2017 16:36:30 GMT -6
It's close minded to slag off an entire genre over a decade plus because you have a limited subset view of how metal "should be", there are tens of thousands of artists in metal and they aren't all bad. This applies to any genre to be honest, just because I'm not a fan of the front runners in many genre's it doesn't mean the whole entire genre is a write off. We'll firmly agree to disagree there. Well, I used to do sound for a lot of metal shows, but at some point in the early '00s the music stopped really being fun or interresting for me. too much thrash, to many silly affected vocals ("COOKIE!"), too much shredding, too much every band sounding exactly the same as the one before. And, conversely but related to shredding, too much of the funny time signature stuff that only appeals to other musicians (and wannabes) and was also instrumental in killing jazz as a truly popular artform. And of course there are always some good artists in any "genre" (I hate that word, BTW), what I'm talking about is what I perceive as the overall trends.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 7, 2017 16:38:44 GMT -6
No matter how many things you fix through editing and tuning, it's always triage which leaves something that someone will say 'should have been fixed'. And some people listen through their feet.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 18:16:47 GMT -6
Well, I used to do sound for a lot of metal shows, but at some point in the early '00s the music stopped really being fun or interresting for me. too much thrash, to many silly affected vocals ("COOKIE!"), too much shredding, too much every band sounding exactly the same as the one before. And, conversely but related to shredding, too much of the funny time signature stuff that only appeals to other musicians (and wannabes) and was also instrumental in killing jazz as a truly popular artform. And of course there are always some good artists in any "genre" (I hate that word, BTW), what I'm talking about is what I perceive as the overall trends. That trend started off in the 80's with thrash and bands like morbid angel.. But there were a lot of decent bands that didn't pander to that sort of thing, like Lacuna Coil for instance. Metal originally was all about beautiful but energetic (heavy) music that had depth and meaning (more than just shaking dat bootahy!) and recently there has been a return to form, but I agree at one point both rock and metal in some parts lost it's identity. After such sub genre's of subgenre's like mathcore (yes it was a thing no J/K), I think metalheads started to notice.. In a limited fashion I don't mind cookie monster singing, but it has to compliment the song.. Like one of my favourite bands called Scar Symmetry is like Bon Jovi meets extreme metal.. It's good stuff, but in reality today not a lot of metalheads are actually interested in cookie monster stuff. Especially after the wave of cleaner Djent, not personally my favourite stuff but some of it's pretty cool. Personally I don't care about genre, I listen to anything from fleetwood mac to timberland all the way over to some pretty heavy metal so if it sounds good I'll listen to it. I'd still put early to mid Metallica as one of my all time greats though.. If you ever visit youtube, it's always bands like Metallica / System of a down (which are a 90's / 00's band) etc. that have all the hits (well within metal / rock anyway).. Probably because they are easy to listen to, whilst still retaining that punch..
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Post by jjinvegas on Jan 7, 2017 23:15:10 GMT -6
Bad intonation does not equal feel, and perfect pitch does not equate to no feeling. Bad intonation makes me feel nauseous. There are singers out there who use gradients of pitch for expression, they are in the minority, okay, extreme minority. If you take your duty to a client seriously, as in making them sound as good as possible, anything in your toolbox is not only recommended, it is required. However, how much correction equals an improvement can certainly be a matter of taste. Does anybody else wish that somebody would have helped Robert Plant in the chorus of "All Of My Love"? I dunno. I hear a lot of commercially produced music where the tuning is extremely unobvious that makes me say "Too bad they tuned all the life out of it. It could have been a great song." Now it could be possible that the singer just has a really uninteresting style and delivery, but I find it hard to believe that. And no, I'm really glad that nobody "helped" Robert Plant in "Whole Lotta Love". REALLY glad. "Help" like that is one of the major problems with a lot of today's records. Well, "whole Lotta Love" is just a wee bit different than "All Of My Love", innit. One, full of juice, the other spent. I never use it on my own vocals, partly from a technical consideration as I sing with monitors on and mic set to omni, but also I use gradients of pitch for expression. But if you really want to know the truth of the matter, the reason why so many singers can't sing is a question of numbers. At one time in our musical history, EVERY significant musical recording at any given time could be offered in a wire rack about three feet by five at the local drug store. And even limited to about forty spots for 7' vinyl, most of that was disposable. Now, another filter has been put on the feed, the addition of video means that Aretha and Ray Charles and many, many others just don't translate as well as some sort of okay-sounding but very attractive wannabe to TV. Combined with an insatiable appetite created by shorter and shorter attention spans, the very high bar to get to the drugstore has been lowered musically, to the point where how someone measures up to previous standards is meaningless. Combine that with Artists and Repertoire departments that have a "right now" mentality and turnover that would eliminate most of the great tastemakers of the past who took many attempts before their bones were made, and you get our current tasteless and cookie-cutter diet. Willie Nelson released over FIFTY freaking LPs before he "arrived". I can easily tell you how many LP's that red-headed step-child would get to make now. None, as in nada, zero, nothin' honey. Not sexy enough, even in his prime, voice too different, teeth need work, etc.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 8, 2017 0:09:53 GMT -6
I dunno. I hear a lot of commercially produced music where the tuning is extremely unobvious that makes me say "Too bad they tuned all the life out of it. It could have been a great song." Now it could be possible that the singer just has a really uninteresting style and delivery, but I find it hard to believe that. And no, I'm really glad that nobody "helped" Robert Plant in "Whole Lotta Love". REALLY glad. "Help" like that is one of the major problems with a lot of today's records. Well, "whole Lotta Love" is just a wee bit different than "All Of My Love", innit. One, full of juice, the other spent. <chuckle> Actually, "All Of My Love" is a perfect example of EXACTLY the type of song that would be utterly ruined by chuckleheaded modern engineers who don't have the brains or taste to keep their damn fingers to themselves. The whole appeal of the song is the charm engendered by the vulnerabilityy and slight childlike pathos imparted by the out of tune performance. It's perfect in its imperfection. I find it really difficult to understand how anyone could miss that. Actually I'd say that the people who run modern television are both tasteless and tone-deaf. They don't even, for the most part, know what good TV is anymore. The problem is that music isn't run by music people anymore and even TV isn't being run by real TV people. Everything has fallen under the control of Madison Avenue focus groups working for the advertising monopolies that control everything.
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Post by gouge on Jan 8, 2017 0:43:18 GMT -6
You make it sound like America is the only place in the world.
Why not change what you are looking at if you don't like the picture.
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Post by Ward on Jan 8, 2017 9:33:51 GMT -6
No matter how many things you fix through editing and tuning, it's always triage which leaves something that someone will say 'should have been fixed'. So very true. I absolutely detest autotune. I bought it and un-iunstalled it. It sits on the shelf, in a box, as I bought the physical version. Instead, I use Waves Soundshifter mono for most every little tuning discrepancy. In my case, as I do a lot of backing vocals for foreign bands, I have learned that I am consistently 12 cents flat. Just by tuning up my own voice tracks, I am at pitch and then the mixing engineer, tracking engineer or producer on the other end can make judgment calls on whether anything needs further adjustment. I have done a half dozen records for a couple of singers who are about 25-34 cents flat. Consistently. So, it works for that too. And it doesn't change the formant or any other part of the sound.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 8, 2017 9:44:40 GMT -6
I record this honky-tonk band with a singer who uses a lot of 50-cent flatted accents, which appears to be a crossover to certain black gospel. Tuner says it's his worst pitch, actually it's his most consistent and purposeful. Take it out and it sounds ridiculous.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 8, 2017 12:11:38 GMT -6
Cigar and brandy anyone?
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Post by jazznoise on Jan 8, 2017 12:35:28 GMT -6
It's not a question of finding great singers, it's a matter of developing great singers. Why should a young person put in the effort to learn to be a great singer if they belive that someone can push a button and "fix" their performance? This is the issue. Sometimes your job is also help an artist to grow. That doesn't always mean accommodating things through stuff like this. You can't make anyone do anything, of course. But I'd much rather make the offer: We can autotune and hack this together till we've taxidermy'd a vocal, or I can give you some meager advice, a bounce of the mix with no vocals and you can go home and practice after we do something else (I usually schedule 2 things for days where I'm not sure the singer will be up for it, so as to give us that wiggle room and they don't feel like they wasted their time".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2017 12:57:35 GMT -6
50 years ago no one had guitar tuners ...... nowadays it's all hand gel, antibacterial soap, and perfect sterile takes.
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