ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 4, 2016 21:35:07 GMT -6
A good collection of general U47 knowledge that most of us already know. The biggest myth keeps getting perpetuated though: That the U47 is a bottomless bottle of faerie dust that magically transforms any source into the perfect recording. Nope. The U47 sound contains a 'mask' to the sound, and the overall sound of a U47 really isn't that far off an SM58. You don't need to be wise to figure that out, you just have to listen. Neumann's M series is the real magic. M49, M50, M249, M269. Yes it is! But as a art director once told me " the M49 just looks so small in pictures, the 47 , 87, C12 & 251 are just sexy looking"!
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 22:11:57 GMT -6
I wonder how much closer a U47 would sound to a M49 if it had the same head basket? There is little more to it than that though. Power supply differences, polarization differences, operating tube differences. That enormous head basket is quite a beauty, though, not just looks but acoustically also. The diffusion of the harshness from the source adds real faerie dust to the sound. The angled head basket used on the M49 obviously reduces some of the midrange resonance/presence that is a trait of the U47 of course many other factors contribute to the differences but I suspect the head basket design is one of the more significant one's regarding the mids assuming the same capsule is used in both. I have been toying with the idea of a DIY M49 as I have an good AC701K tube and have recently built a C12 clone. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 5, 2016 4:25:31 GMT -6
I once saw a freq analysis of a real 47 with and without the headbasket on and rowmat you are spot on , the HB adds mini delays and emphasizes certain freq etc and this effect is a big part of the"47" sound. Which 49 diy kit are you thinking of , heard its a tricky build ?
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Post by Ward on Dec 5, 2016 7:51:07 GMT -6
@romat, like kcatthedog, I am extremely interested in all aspects of your build. Parts sourcing, schematics, plans, fabrication etc. Whilst selling at around $10,000 for a good example, the M49 still remains the least sung of the great classic microphones. C12, U47/U48, U67 and 251 getting the most attention and usually in that order.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 5, 2016 7:57:31 GMT -6
I know Christian Whitmore (bowie) did a 49 build a while back. Pretty certain he got it from the site (Austrian fellow who passed away about 1.5 years ago ?, just not remembering his name, thought the family was continuing the business ?
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 5, 2016 7:59:06 GMT -6
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Post by Vincent R. on Dec 5, 2016 13:36:07 GMT -6
Out of all of our pre's I find the Mercury V72 (and undoubtably of course an original V72) really compliments our Flea 47 fantastically especially for male crooner style vocals and the Mercury V76 also works very well with the 47 on female vox. I have a Peluso 2247SE and a Tab Funkenwerk V78M. It's a killer combo on male crooning vocals.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 5, 2016 13:41:23 GMT -6
Tell us more about the TAB !
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Post by Vincent R. on Dec 5, 2016 14:24:06 GMT -6
Tell us more about the TAB ! I'll be honest, It's fairly new and I haven't used it as much as I'd like. I have tested it with a few of my main mics. It's very colored and warm and everything you expect from a vintage style tube pre. It has a punchy quality I like, while being supper thick and warm. My other tube pres are a DBX 376, which isn't in the same league, and the UA 610 which has a muddier sound. I can say that if the Tab V78M is indicative of this kind of preamp, the Slate FG76 is a really poor emulation of it.
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Post by kilroyrock on Dec 5, 2016 14:39:59 GMT -6
Tell us more about the TAB ! I'll be honest, It's fairly new and I haven't used it as much as I'd like. I have tested it with a few of my main mics. It's very colored and warm and everything you expect from a vintage style tube pre. It has a punchy quality I like, while being supper thick and warm. My other tube pres are a DBX 376, which isn't in the same league, and the UA 610 which has a muddier sound. I can say that if the Tab V78M is indicative of this kind of preamp, the Slate FG76 is a really poor emulation of it. Could the poor emulation be more of an impedance mismatch than a poor emulation? I don't own any slate, but from what I know, their emulations aren't ever really described negatively?
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Post by Vincent R. on Dec 5, 2016 15:44:48 GMT -6
I honestly don't know. It's just not close. It surprises me too, because I like their 1073 emulation and use a lot of their other emulations, VCC, etc. Most of the slate stuff in my opinion has to be pushed harder than other emulations to get the saturation you're looking for, but no matter how I try I just can't get the FG76 to sound like my tab.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 5, 2016 17:41:21 GMT -6
I know Christian Whitmore (bowie) did a 49 build a while back. Pretty certain he got it from the site (Austrian fellow who passed away about 1.5 years ago ?, just not remembering his name, thought the family was continuing the business ? That would be Oliver Archut from Tab Funkenwerk.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 5, 2016 17:59:58 GMT -6
@romat, like kcatthedog , I am extremely interested in all aspects of your build. Parts sourcing, schematics, plans, fabrication etc. Whilst selling at around $10,000 for a good example, the M49 still remains the least sung of the great classic microphones. C12, U47/U48, U67 and 251 getting the most attention and usually in that order. I was considering a Flea 49 for a while but I've spent quite a bit on mics in the past two years and the C12 build got me thinking about a DIY M49 as I have an AC701K tube. Flea sell mic parts including very good quality bodies but a Lithuanian company called Aputis appear to also make excellent looking M49 style bodies but I'm not sure whether they are currently in production and available for sale as their website has been under construction for the past year or so. www.aputis.comThe catch is any DIY build would have to come in at no more than around $1500 USD or the economics won't stack up in terms of resale if I wan't to sell it down the track. I can't see anybody paying much more than that for a DIY clone no matter how good it is. On the other hand a new Flea 49 can be had for around $4000 USD and I'm sure it would fetch at least $3k used and be easier to sell. Flea however won't reveal what tube they are using in their M49 version. The upside is my DIY would have an AC701K so as long as the rest of the build was top notch it may still be viable. ![](//storage.proboards.com/5388330/thumbnailer/qRgs2PMQGT2melnGplYZ.jpg) ![](//storage.proboards.com/5388330/thumbnailer/yEIHTtvN7cl3Lk6HQYmB.jpg)
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 5, 2016 18:01:25 GMT -6
Yes, I saw his name on the site documentation. I know when he was alive they had a 49 kit on the site but I don't see it now. Maybe they still have the parts but just don't advertise it ?
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Post by rowmat on Dec 5, 2016 18:19:06 GMT -6
Yes, I saw his name on the site documentation. I know when he was alive they had a 49 kit on the site but I don't see it now. Maybe they still have the parts but just don't advertise it ? I think Oliver's family have had a struggle keeping the business running smoothy after Oliver's passing which is to be expected.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 5, 2016 18:26:45 GMT -6
Yes exactly, they can't have had his knowledge, experience nor contacts.
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Post by Ward on Dec 5, 2016 18:41:01 GMT -6
Well, rowmat, looks like it's going to be fascinating build. Start a thread in the DIY sub-forum here and walk us nancypants through it please!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 5, 2016 19:12:24 GMT -6
I think this might be pertinent to the discussion. The first 4 mics were in the same position, same take of vocal with guitar. It's a rare chance to compare a vintage U47, the Blackspade, a mic based on the U47 and M49 with the Thiersch M7 capsule. It was a little unfair to compare the Soyuz FET instead of their tube version, but listen how full it sounds and then compare to the U67, they have the same style capsule. I put the C12 track up just for fun.
Then the U67 and finally, the M49. I think I may have been standing a little further away for the M49 track, but it was in fact thinner than the others. The U67 was to me, the best fit for my voice, the U47 flawless, the Blackspade surprisingly close, the Soyuz a big surprise, and the C12 and M49 kind of a disappointment, at least in this case.
This was done in the summer of 2016, at The Barbershop Studios in New Jersey, all thanks to Jeremy Gillespie, the resident engineer.
All tracks were flat, no EQ, through the SSL board's preamps. We only added a little reverb. I suspect with a little EQ and trying various preamp choices, you could tweak the sound somewhat, but I think this speaks for itself.
(Vintage U47) https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-2-mic-1
(Blackspade UM-17R, Redline Thiersch M7 capsule)
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-2-mic-2
(Soyuz 0-19 FET) *It has a K67 style capsule
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-2-mic-3
(C-12)
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-2-mic-4
These two mics were recorded right after the first four. Same studio, same position, same flat settings, just a different take.
U67
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-1-u67 M49
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/mic-shootout-1-m49
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Post by Ward on Dec 6, 2016 3:42:30 GMT -6
That was REALLY REALLY REALLY helpful, Martin John Butler. Good on you. The U67 just blows everything else away except the M49 which wins this, IMHO. the U47 also sounds fantastic in this shoot-out too. It never ceases to amaze me how a C12 always sounds like it's two different microphones at the same time and the high end seems disconnected from the rest of the sound. Not a bad thing, kind of cool... it just sounds like there's one LDC recording 40z-5k and then a C451 recording 5-20K. Always. The black spade resembles the U47 in many ways but the high end skews to the Hillary. And the Soyuz does the same in a 67 way. Just my thoughts!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 6, 2016 11:03:52 GMT -6
It was really a rare and special experience. You should hear the Soyuz 0-17, with the tube. The tube helps with the stronger levels, and for the money, I think it's the best mic available. The U67 is now my fantasy, what a amazing sound. Did you notice how the reverb on the sides is more prominent? The reverb was the same on all tracks, so the U67 was bringing out that quality. It's startling how good it is. I can only imagine if we had time to tweak it a little and adjust position for tracking songs instead of a test. Jeremy said the U67 is the best there is at taking EQ.
Given the Blackspade costs $1,895, I think with a little tweaking by Sinsay, that thing would be neck and neck with the 47, which is really saying something, considering you can drop a zero when totaling cost compared to the 47.
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Post by Ward on Dec 6, 2016 11:13:44 GMT -6
It was really a rare and special experience. You should hear the Soyuz 0-17, with the tube. The tube helps with the stronger levels, and for the money, I think it's the best mic available. The U67 is now my fantasy, what a amazing sound. Did you notice how the reverb on the sides is more prominent? The reverb was the same on all tracks, so the U67 was bringing out that quality. It's startling how good it is. I can only imagine if we had time to tweak it a little and adjust position for tracking songs instead of a test. Jeremy said the U67 is the best there is at taking EQ. The right U67 is definitely on my list too! Given the Blackspade costs $1,895, I think with a little tweaking by Sinsay, that thing would be neck and neck with the 47, which is really saying something, considering you can drop a zero when totaling cost compared to the 47. That's a startling remark, and yet likely and accurate too. I would be willing to put money on Shannon's ability to turn a Blackspade into a U47 clone that would have fooled Georges Neumann. @sinsay is just that good. You should hear what he did with my Neumann-Gefell UM57.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 6, 2016 14:44:35 GMT -6
The timbre of the Blackspade was very close to the 47, with the Blackspade having a little sizzle on top. Hell, if the Blackspade sat around for 50 years, it might be a little more mellow too. It was impressive just how close they were already. Blackspade wasn't making a clone, just a nice new mic in the direction of the 47 and M49.
After using the 67, it's hard to use anything else! But the Soyuz is killer in its own right, which is a relief, because I don't see $9,000 - $15,000 for a U67 happening soon.
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Post by stratboy on Dec 6, 2016 20:28:12 GMT -6
A tube upgrade from christian can help the 610 mkii, Matt at dizengoff has a pcb upgrade for it and Brain Fox does a mod of it, if your partner wants to spend a little dough ? How do we contact Christian?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 6, 2016 20:29:34 GMT -6
A tube upgrade from christian can help the 610 mkii, Matt at dizengoff has a pcb upgrade for it and Brain Fox does a mod of it, if your partner wants to spend a little dough ? How do we contact Christian? Proaudiotubes@aol.com
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 6, 2016 21:51:36 GMT -6
A tube upgrade from christian can help the 610 mkii, Matt at dizengoff has a pcb upgrade for it and Brain Fox does a mod of it, if your partner wants to spend a little dough ? How do we contact Christian?
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