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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 3, 2016 18:02:00 GMT -6
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Post by ludwigvanbeartrap on Dec 4, 2016 8:55:02 GMT -6
Enjoyed that, thanks.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,284 
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Post by ericn on Dec 4, 2016 14:11:32 GMT -6
It was a good read, but I do wish he would have acknowledged that their is an argument against redlining an M7 or dropping in a K47!
One might also interperate that all M49's had K49/47's from this article and that's dead wrong!
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 16:40:59 GMT -6
"...One might also interperate that all M49's had K49/47's from this article and that's dead wrong! That's what I was thinking. |
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 16:48:53 GMT -6
The midrange presence peak characteristic U47's are known for is more prominent and aggressive using clean modern preamps when recording digitally.
IMO this is one of the reasons U47 are often not the first choice for female vox.
Out of all of our pre's I find the Mercury V72 (and undoubtably of course an original V72) really compliments our Flea 47 fantastically especially for male crooner style vocals and the Mercury V76 also works very well with the 47 on female vox.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 4, 2016 16:58:08 GMT -6
Kind of a digression but I built the max audio mk-u 47 with the blue cap but I got teh dizengoff d4 (redd 47) pre, thinking they would compliment each other well.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 16:59:10 GMT -6
Kind of a digression but I built the max audio mk-u 47 with the blue cap but I got teh dizengoff d4 (redd 47) pre, thinking they would compliment each other well. And did they? |
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 4, 2016 17:14:23 GMT -6
I think so but frankly I don't have the experience with classic gear that many of you have  , So, I just know I like the way it sounds and the mk-u47 has a real range of tone (proximity and on/off axis going on) and I have experimented with different tubes in it. I currently use nos eriksson as I find they give a nice combo of clean and presence, I also built the c12 with campbell cap and have had an la 610 mkii here and the warm tonebeast. So, I haven't really used it with a modern pre other than the stock ic in my apollo. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,284
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Post by ericn on Dec 4, 2016 17:46:43 GMT -6
The midrange presence peak characteristic U47's are known for is more prominent and aggressive using clean modern preamps when recording digitally. IMO this is one of the reasons U47 are often not the first choice for female vox. Out of all of our pre's I find the Mercury V72 (and undoubtably of course an original V72) really compliments our Flea 47 fantastically especially for male crooner style vocals and the Mercury V76 also works very well with the 47 on female vox. Yeah but I hear it more with K47's than M7's and it really comes down to the particular voice. That said I do think the average slut needs to spend more time chasing what works with a particular voice , rather than chasing the classics! |
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 18:22:08 GMT -6
I think so but frankly I don't have the experience with classic gear that many of you have , So, I just know I like the way it sounds and the mk-u47 has a real range of tone (proximity and on/off axis going on) and I have experimented with different tubes in it. I currently use nos eriksson as I find they give a nice combo of clean and presence, I also built the c12 with campbell cap and have had an la 610 mkii here and the warm tonebeast. So, I haven't really used it with a modern pre other than the stock ic in my apollo. I would assume the pre's in your Apollo are probably fairy typical of the modern, clean style preamps fitted to many interfaces as standard. I'm guessing somewhat on the clinical side? We also have a UA 610 MKII but I find it woolly and muddy rather than 'vintage' in fact, so much so, that it hasn't been used in two years. If the Apollo as at the clean end of the spectrum and the UA as somewhat at the murky end of the spectrum then maybe neither of those could be considered ideal. I have no experience with the Tonebeast. The classic mics U47, C12's etc. were designed during the period of limited bandwidth recording mediums and almost no one had playback equipment that exceed 10khz back then let alone what we take for granted today. (Excluding cellphone and tablet playback of course) I think many of these older mics will sound more like their designers intended back in their heyday when used at least with similar era preamps especially when recording to digital. Although a modern recreation of the 50's era V72/V76 preamps, our Mercury Bruder really highlighted to me how important the preamps are when used with mics of that era. In fact I'm now in the lookout for an original V72 which are still somewhat affordable. Original V76's are becoming the equivelant of U47's and C12's in the vintage preamp world so maybe that is an indication that some are recognising the desirable relationship of those era microphones and preamps. Whether or not that always suits your purpose (or budget 😬) is another thing. |
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 18:36:39 GMT -6
The midrange presence peak characteristic U47's are known for is more prominent and aggressive using clean modern preamps when recording digitally. IMO this is one of the reasons U47 are often not the first choice for female vox. Out of all of our pre's I find the Mercury V72 (and undoubtably of course an original V72) really compliments our Flea 47 fantastically especially for male crooner style vocals and the Mercury V76 also works very well with the 47 on female vox. Yeah but I hear it more with K47's than M7's and it really comes down to the particular voice. That said I do think the average slut needs to spend more time chasing what works with a particular voice , rather than chasing the classics! I don't disagree about choosing what is suitable. However I think part of the reason people look for so called 'vintage or classic' equipment is because they identify the sound (or believe they do) from the many classic recordings made over the past 50 years that utilised the gear many now lust after. In reality it is not the gear as much as the song/performance but if we look at most recordings made after the 1970's it seems less people seem interested in the equipment even though most of the same classic gear was still being used. I think much of the nostalgia surrounding classic gear has as much to do with musical genres than the gear itself. As far as M7 capsule is concerned my understanding is the M7 has its presence peak a little lower in the range than the K67/K87 capsule but I'm not sure how close the K47 capsule is to the M7. Some say it is almost indistinguishable while others indicate the K47 is a little more prominent than the M7 in the sibilance range. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 4, 2016 18:42:05 GMT -6
Yes all good analysis, I would say the apollo ic's pres are clean but not clinical as they are designed to support its unison technology. I'm with you with the 610, sold it about a year ago. The tonebeast is a recreation of the api but with the twist of a 2nd circuit and two different op amps but more of a 60's-70's- sound .
The D4 is a recreation of the redd 47 pre in abbey road in the early 60.'s
Good luck with your v72 search: ironically, I think I saw one a few months back on line somewhere.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 18:51:48 GMT -6
Yes all good analysis, I would say the apollo ic's pres are clean but not clinical as they are designed to support its unison technology. I'm with you with the 610, sold it about a year ago. The tonebeast is a recreation of the api but with the twist of a 2nd circuit and two different op amps but more of a 60's-70's- sound . The D4 is a recreation of the redd 47 pre in abbey road in the early 60.'s Good luck with your v72 search: ironically, I think I saw one a few months back on line somewhere. Of course I forgot your D4. Don't know much about it except that it's supposed to be an more affordable take of the Redd 47 as you say. The UA 610 MKII belongs to my studio partner. When I first tried it I genuinely thought there was something wrong with it. Apart from sounding like it was heavily low passed at 10khz the compressor was grabby and really killed the tone. When I started to search various forums looking for info I found many had the same opinion. It looks great but seems to have been designed by the marketing department rather than an audio designer. I believe the MK1 version is supposed to sound better. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 4, 2016 18:55:17 GMT -6
A tube upgrade from christian can help the 610 mkii, Matt at dizengoff has a pcb upgrade for it and Brain Fox does a mod of it, if your partner wants to spend a little dough ?
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 19:14:13 GMT -6
A tube upgrade from christian can help the 610 mkii, Matt at dizengoff has a pcb upgrade for it and Brain Fox does a mod of it, if your partner wants to spend a little dough ? I saw the Brian Fox article a year or so ago. I'd be interested in taking a look at the PCB upgrade but I would definitely want to hear the before/after results and it still doesn't address the compressor which in no way replicates an LA2A. Frankly I think we should probably just get rid of it as any mods will probably reduce its resale value even if they do make it sound better and besides we could use the cash from the sale to help fund an original V72. We already have several decent tube pre's including the Mercury Bruder V72/V76 combo, a Sebatron Axis 200 (cleanish but good) and a pair of Sound Skulptor MP566's now fitted with NOS Mullard 12AT7's (surprisingly tasty)! |
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 4, 2016 19:41:47 GMT -6
If you want the la2a sound the comp in the la610 is not that comp. I don't know why people think it is ? A little more reading for you www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id9.html |
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 19:46:08 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 4, 2016 20:00:44 GMT -6
but it doesn't have a t4b cell I think you have to read between the lines as that marketing stuff implies the la610 is an la2a which it isn't. my wa2a has a real tb4 cell in it and there isn't anything that looks like that in the 610 mk ii that I had I think the owner's manual for the 610 mki is actually more straitghtforward. But bottom line the compression in the 610 doesn't sound like my wa2a much at all. |
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 20:03:52 GMT -6
but it doesn't have a t4b cell As if that matters to UA's marketing department! According to UA... "with authentic Teletronix T4 opto-compression circuitry." So it may not have the actual T4B cell but it has the 'circuitry'. Funny though, it sounds nothing like an LA2A. My Warm Audio WA-2A sounds in the LA2A ballpark... the UA 610 MKII ain't even close. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 4, 2016 20:10:12 GMT -6
Hey found a reference to Matt from BLA's mod ( now he is dizengoff ) and actually sounds like he basically puts in la2a parts : "Matt from Black Lion Audio modified this -- it has a Kenetek T4B (same reduction type as the LA2A) and a larger output tube. The output stage is was converted from using an ECC81 tube into using a 12BH7 tube stage just like the LA2A uses. "This is very important since the 12BH7 can drive a line much better (less distortion) than the 12AT7 can." reverb.com/item/2711643-universal-audio-la-610-mkii-with-kenetek-t4b |
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 20:28:18 GMT -6
That had been sold on Reverb.
I checked Black Lion's website and it seems they no longer offer mods to the UA 610 MKII.
Not to worry.
Eyes peeled for a V72!
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 4, 2016 20:33:41 GMT -6
Yes I know you would have to contact Matt at Dizengoff Audio in chicago. He told me about the mod after he left bla so I think he is still doing them or has teh board's. Matt used to post here actually. peel over to vintage king |
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Post by Ward on Dec 4, 2016 20:33:54 GMT -6
A good collection of general U47 knowledge that most of us already know.
The biggest myth keeps getting perpetuated though: That the U47 is a bottomless bottle of faerie dust that magically transforms any source into the perfect recording. Nope. The U47 sound contains a 'mask' to the sound, and the overall sound of a U47 really isn't that far off an SM58. You don't need to be wise to figure that out, you just have to listen.
Neumann's M series is the real magic. M49, M50, M249, M269.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 4, 2016 20:48:33 GMT -6
A good collection of general U47 knowledge that most of us already know. The biggest myth keeps getting perpetuated though: That the U47 is a bottomless bottle of faerie dust that magically transforms any source into the perfect recording. Nope. The U47 sound contains a 'mask' to the sound, and the overall sound of a U47 really isn't that far off an SM58. You don't need to be wise to figure that out, you just have to listen. Neumann's M series is the real magic. M49, M50, M249, M269. A SM58 close up for the proximity effect combined with the 58's midrange presence could be somewhat likened to a 47 in terms of general response but I wouldn't swap my Flea 47 for even two dozen SM58's.  Dammit the last SM58 I bought cost me a whole $5! I wonder how much closer a U47 would sound to a M49 if it had the same head basket? |
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Post by Ward on Dec 4, 2016 21:07:36 GMT -6
I wonder how much closer a U47 would sound to a M49 if it had the same head basket? There is little more to it than that though. Power supply differences, polarization differences, operating tube differences. That enormous head basket is quite a beauty, though, not just looks but acoustically also. The diffusion of the harshness from the source adds real faerie dust to the sound. |
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, So, I just know I like the way it sounds and the mk-u47 has a real range of tone (proximity and on/off axis going on) and I have experimented with different tubes in it. I currently use nos eriksson as I find they give a nice combo of clean and presence, I also built the c12 with campbell cap and have had an la 610 mkii here and the warm tonebeast. So, I haven't really used it with a modern pre other than the stock ic in my apollo.
