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Post by indiehouse on Jan 9, 2017 17:24:53 GMT -6
Thanks man. I've been using Apollo since it first dropped, so I have a pretty good handle on the workflow. Plus, this seems to be an intermittent issue. Was working just fine one day, then gets screwy the next. That being said, I re-read this article, especially paying attention to the Pro Tools Delay Compensation section. Holy hell, man! Are they basically telling me to MANUALLY set delay comp for every track?!? Was this written before PT implemented ADC? Also, they didn't mention that Pro Tools doesn't correctly calculate conversion latency for third party interfaces, and that has to be set manually.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 9, 2017 17:29:24 GMT -6
So, I've been reading up on this and it indeed seems far more widespread than I imagined. Countless threads complaining of the exact same issue, that latency calculated by PT on third party interfaces is a moving target at best. Came across this workaround, but hell, he's got every audio track routed to an Aux. It seems to be a well received solution. www.gearslutz.com/board/9450744-post121.htmlSo, in lieu of throwing money I don't have at this, how do I ping in PT to measure AD/DA latency caused by conversion? Can't seem to find a solid answer.
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Post by drbill on Jan 9, 2017 17:31:59 GMT -6
drbill or anyone else using Avid interface, Have you tried using a H/W inserts without aligning the I/O? Ex: send vox out of avid hd output 6 and return to avid hd input 5, is the H/W insert time aligned grid wise and for playback? I know you are super busy, maybe next time you go to print a return, you could see? Thx in advance 🤠I don't even know HOW to align the i/o. Well, I have a really good idea of how, but never had to go there. Under the "options" menu, I select "delay compensation" and go about my mixing business. No muss, no fuss.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 18:26:35 GMT -6
So, I've been reading up on this and it indeed seems far more widespread than I imagined. Countless threads complaining of the exact same issue, that latency calculated by PT on third party interfaces is a moving target at best. Came across this workaround, but hell, he's got every audio track routed to an Aux. It seems to be a well received solution. www.gearslutz.com/board/9450744-post121.htmlSo, in lieu of throwing money I don't have at this, how do I ping in PT to measure AD/DA latency caused by conversion? Can't seem to find a solid answer. There's been an issue in PT for years that if the HW buffer size is higher than the compensation sample amount it causes issues. One way is to bus everything as said in that thread which is a PITA, or as the manual says you can turn off LLM (low latency mode).. Do that by clicking on the delay comp sample amount at the bottom of the mixer and switch it off. ChaseUTBWow, seems quite a bit of printing going on there.. Luckily you can now freeze tracks in PT 12, they're only several years late to that party. Might be worth a look?
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 9, 2017 20:08:44 GMT -6
So, I've been reading up on this and it indeed seems far more widespread than I imagined. Countless threads complaining of the exact same issue, that latency calculated by PT on third party interfaces is a moving target at best. Came across this workaround, but hell, he's got every audio track routed to an Aux. It seems to be a well received solution. www.gearslutz.com/board/9450744-post121.htmlSo, in lieu of throwing money I don't have at this, how do I ping in PT to measure AD/DA latency caused by conversion? Can't seem to find a solid answer. Record a part of a click track, then Use the audio of the click track and route of out your output back into your input... send click track Line output 5 then return it on Line input 5 into a new audio track record enabled. Measure the difference in ms b/c PT doesn't do sample. If you use an Apollo make sure you go to the consol app preferences under settings and enable PT mode. This alleviates your worries.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 9, 2017 20:16:36 GMT -6
@shadowamd Not sure what you mean, I have one pre/eq, one mono comp, and one stereo/ buss comp. I may only use the HW on 5 -7 things, not too bad time wise for printing. You have to real time bounce or print with HW. Not sure what freezing a track would do with HW. I highlight the audio I want to print, make a new playlist, then record/ print. indiehouse I don't understand what you are saying please provide pics or screen shots. With Pt mode enabled in your UAD console app preferences under settings or maybe it's the control panel preferences under menu settings, the Apollo will offset ( null ) the first two inputs so they sync with the outputs. Ex: to use my wa76 I send out Line output 5 to wa76 get my settings send back in Line input 5. This enables me to use as a hardware insert and it lines up on the timeline and plays in sync..
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 9, 2017 20:21:40 GMT -6
drbill I'm sure you use a patch bay, I was saying if you want to use a mono compressor, in order to use as a HE insert in PT the input and output have to match. Ex: audio sent out via line output x to mono compressor which is then returned into Line input x, then back into PT. I was asking you because you have avid interfaces and I don't if you could send to output x and return on input y and see if the printed audio is in time playback wise and timeline wise. Anyway, no biggie, I understand how to setup my I/ o in PT 😀
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Post by drbill on Jan 9, 2017 21:09:17 GMT -6
drbill I'm sure you use a patch bay, I was saying if you want to use a mono compressor, in order to use as a HE insert in PT the input and output have to match. Ex: audio sent out via line output x to mono compressor which is then returned into Line input x, then back into PT. I was asking you because you have avid interfaces and I don't if you could send to output x and return on input y and see if the printed audio is in time playback wise and timeline wise. Anyway, no biggie, I understand how to setup my I/ o in PT 😀 For Inserts, AudioX always goes out and back in on input/outputX. Not Y.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 21:46:39 GMT -6
@shadowamd Not sure what you mean, I have one pre/eq, one mono comp, and one stereo/ buss comp. I may only use the HW on 5 -7 things, not too bad time wise for printing. You have to real time bounce or print with HW. Not sure what freezing a track would do with HW. I highlight the audio I want to print, make a new playlist, then record/ print. indiehouse I don't understand what you are saying please provide pics or screen shots. With Pt mode enabled in your UAD console app preferences under settings or maybe it's the control panel preferences under menu settings, the Apollo will offset ( null ) the first two inputs so they sync with the outputs. Ex: to use my wa76 I send out Line output 5 to wa76 get my settings send back in Line input 5. This enables me to use as a hardware insert and it lines up on the timeline and plays in sync.. Sorry, must have misread..
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 13, 2017 15:41:10 GMT -6
Just to update this thread, the last couple of times I've logged into the studio to mix, I've had no issues with latency and hardware. It's a complete mindf**k.
Forgive me if this is a "noob" question, but at this point I'll grasp at anything. Does chaining multiple outboard pieces together on an insert cause additional, un-calculated latency? Meaning, if I run out to an LA2A -> 550 EQ then back in, would that cause an issue? Again, I'm certain it doesn't, but I'm at the point of asking absurd questions.
Also, I'm running UAD plugs on my kick, then out to an LA2A, then to an EQ, then back in. The Kick is then routed to a Drum Buss, which has an SB4001 on an insert, as well as some additional plugins. The Drum Buss is then routed to the Mix Bus, which has a string of outboard (Silver Bullet -> Foote P3EX -> Hendyamps Michelangelo) on an insert. I'm assuming that's a fairly normal routing scheme, starting with the Kick, which is ultimately going through conversion and outboard gear at 3 different stages, right?
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 14, 2017 4:07:51 GMT -6
Yes sir pretty standard workflow, just always use the same input and output that correspond. I don't have a oatchbay so gear is plugged into my Apollo. So ex: Mono kick-- PT eq3-7-> Pultec -> wa76 -> Drum ( mojo/ stereo) Aux bus/ subgroup then send to parallel ITB chain then " parallel crush " can be routed to Drum Aux/ itsbown Aux for more control or the Mixbus ( aux named ). The Drum bus group/ Aux is routed to the mixbus where the Stam Audio sa4000 bus compresses the mix. Glad everything working for you. Go into your preferences and try and save your session settings! PT also has a handy feature called import session data, essesntially import most of any part of a session into the current or new one. www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2016/10/12/tutorial-how-to-use-the-pro-tools-import-session-data-window
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 14, 2017 7:27:36 GMT -6
Guess what? Latency is back. This time it's my drum up buss, which I had an SB4001 inserted on.
My. God. Man.
I just don't know what to do, short of selling all of my gear. I mean, where do I even start troubleshooting this? Switching DAW's isn't an option right now, at least until this project is out the door.
I would at least love to know if this is an Apollo issue or a PT12 issue.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 14, 2017 7:33:58 GMT -6
Yes sir pretty standard workflow, just always use the same input and output that correspond. I don't have a oatchbay so gear is plugged into my Apollo. So ex: Mono kick-- PT eq3-7-> Pultec -> wa76 -> Drum ( mojo/ stereo) Aux bus/ subgroup then send to parallel ITB chain then " parallel crush " can be routed to Drum Aux/ itsbown Aux for more control or the Mixbus ( aux named ). The Drum bus group/ Aux is routed to the mixbus where the Stam Audio sa4000 bus compresses the mix. Glad everything working for you. Go into your preferences and try and save your session settings! PT also has a handy feature called import session data, essesntially import most of any part of a session into the current or new one. www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2016/10/12/tutorial-how-to-use-the-pro-tools-import-session-data-windowI appreciate all the basics you've been shooting at me, man, but I've got all that covered. Though, at this point, I'm up for any ideas!
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 14, 2017 8:55:41 GMT -6
Yes sir pretty standard workflow, just always use the same input and output that correspond. I don't have a oatchbay so gear is plugged into my Apollo. So ex: Mono kick-- PT eq3-7-> Pultec -> wa76 -> Drum ( mojo/ stereo) Aux bus/ subgroup then send to parallel ITB chain then " parallel crush " can be routed to Drum Aux/ itsbown Aux for more control or the Mixbus ( aux named ). The Drum bus group/ Aux is routed to the mixbus where the Stam Audio sa4000 bus compresses the mix. Glad everything working for you. Go into your preferences and try and save your session settings! PT also has a handy feature called import session data, essesntially import most of any part of a session into the current or new one. www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2016/10/12/tutorial-how-to-use-the-pro-tools-import-session-data-windowAlso, are you sure about that parallel hardware compression routing setup? For some reason I had it in my head that it wasn't as easy as just setting up a hardware insert on an aux and bussing signal. I thought that would create additional latency.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 14, 2017 9:54:52 GMT -6
Been thinking on this some more. I'm going to try to separate emotion (frustrations) from analytical thought. I'm going to work under the assumption of user error.
First step: inactivate all tracks except the offending track and measure. Then, activate tracks one at a time until the issue presents itself again.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jan 14, 2017 10:28:11 GMT -6
My latency here is around a 70% propagation delay. That's 70% the speed of light. So far I can't detect that. This is because everything is analog except for the tank (storage). I never think about it, I never worry about it, everything is time-aligned like real music. I like to make music here, not f*ck around with computers (the wrong side of the brain is used for that anyway).
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Post by drbill on Jan 14, 2017 10:57:28 GMT -6
Indie - the random nature of this suggests your computer. PT hardware is not changing between sessions. PT software isn't either, although corruptions CAN occur. I'd suggest that it's either in the Apollo drivers, or your OS, or possibly a plugin(s) that aren't reporting their latency right. If it was me, I'd be building an entire new boot drive, and only installing the OS and PT and the latest Apollo drivers, THEN, gradually adding things back in. This random, on off, on off thing is most likely computer/OS related.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 14, 2017 12:12:14 GMT -6
Are you running any plugs that go over the maximum latency compensation?
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 14, 2017 12:36:09 GMT -6
Are you running any plugs that go over the maximum latency compensation? Per individual plug or total per track? I'm not running anything out of the ordinary. UAD, VCC, Nimbus, Soundtoys, FF, Soothe, Arouser, some VI's plus hardware. Is there a bussing limit? Meaning, can I run an aux into an aux into an aux? For instance, I have a couple of backing vocals which I routed to an aux called BACKUP VOX. That stereo aux is routed to another aux called VOCAL BUSS. That channel (along with everything else) is then routed to another aux called MIX BUSS, which is then either routed to a print channel or the Master out.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 14, 2017 12:51:51 GMT -6
Are you running any plugs that go over the maximum latency compensation? Per individual plug or total per track? I'm not running anything out of the ordinary. UAD, VCC, Nimbus, Soundtoys, FF, Soothe, Arouser, some VI's plus hardware. Is there a bussing limit? Meaning, can I run an aux into an aux into an aux? For instance, I have a couple of backing vocals which I routed to an aux called BACKUP VOX. That stereo aux is routed to another aux called VOCAL BUSS. That channel (along with everything else) is then routed to another aux called MIX BUSS, which is then either routed to a print channel or the Master out. You can view the amount of delay compensation from your plug-ins. This help? www.ptdudes.com/2011/05/18/delay-compensation-explained-part-1-of-2/
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 14, 2017 15:17:16 GMT -6
Are you running any plugs that go over the maximum latency compensation? Per individual plug or total per track? I'm not running anything out of the ordinary. UAD, VCC, Nimbus, Soundtoys, FF, Soothe, Arouser, some VI's plus hardware. Is there a bussing limit? Meaning, can I run an aux into an aux into an aux? For instance, I have a couple of backing vocals which I routed to an aux called BACKUP VOX. That stereo aux is routed to another aux called VOCAL BUSS. That channel (along with everything else) is then routed to another aux called MIX BUSS, which is then either routed to a print channel or the Master out. Ok: simple workflow one BG vox mono workflow example BG vox- >ITB eq -> pultec/ Neve/ API ITB -> HW wa76 - > L1 ITB - > sent to sBGvox ( subgroup that's an Aux) -> which then hits mixbus ( Aux named that )... BG vox sends off main BG vox mono track -> 1/8 st. Delay ( Aux name ) -> St hall ( Aux name ) -> mono plate ( Aux name ) -> stereo 1/4 dotted ( eq return heavy ) -> parallel or parallel distortion/ saturation/ modulation w/e ( Aux name, send from original BG vox mono trk post fader) These time based Fx aux returns are then routed to their own subgroup ( Aux named sFX, ) which then routes to the mixbus ( Aux named mixbus ) The sFX will have an L1 itb, the mixbus has a mixbus comp either HW or SW... The mixbus is then routed to the Master Output for playback where Ozone 5/ Pro-L / L1 sits ( ozone latency hog, I have standard ) I am trying to help you... you are having issues that are frustrating you and you have not found the culprit. Maybe a clean install, new driver or firmware updates, maybe roll back a version, and make sure you have PT mode always chosen in the UAD SW settings.. I keep PT 12.4 on a HD partitioned and have been testing it, however I am on rtas 32 bit native PT 10... I guess this will be the last I add unless you tag me or quote me asking for help. Good luck I hope you find your solution asap!
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 14, 2017 19:16:45 GMT -6
Per individual plug or total per track? I'm not running anything out of the ordinary. UAD, VCC, Nimbus, Soundtoys, FF, Soothe, Arouser, some VI's plus hardware. Is there a bussing limit? Meaning, can I run an aux into an aux into an aux? For instance, I have a couple of backing vocals which I routed to an aux called BACKUP VOX. That stereo aux is routed to another aux called VOCAL BUSS. That channel (along with everything else) is then routed to another aux called MIX BUSS, which is then either routed to a print channel or the Master out. Ok: simple workflow one BG vox mono workflow example BG vox- >ITB eq -> pultec/ Neve/ API ITB -> HW wa76 - > L1 ITB - > sent to sBGvox ( subgroup that's an Aux) -> which then hits mixbus ( Aux named that )... BG vox sends off main BG vox mono track -> 1/8 st. Delay ( Aux name ) -> St hall ( Aux name ) -> mono plate ( Aux name ) -> stereo 1/4 dotted ( eq return heavy ) -> parallel or parallel distortion/ saturation/ modulation w/e ( Aux name, send from original BG vox mono trk post fader) These time based Fx aux returns are then routed to their own subgroup ( Aux named sFX, ) which then routes to the mixbus ( Aux named mixbus ) The sFX will have an L1 itb, the mixbus has a mixbus comp either HW or SW... The mixbus is then routed to the Master Output for playback where Ozone 5/ Pro-L / L1 sits ( ozone latency hog, I have standard ) I am trying to help you... you are having issues that are frustrating you and you have not found the culprit. Maybe a clean install, new driver or firmware updates, maybe roll back a version, and make sure you have PT mode always chosen in the UAD SW settings.. I keep PT 12.4 on a HD partitioned and have been testing it, however I am on rtas 32 bit native PT 10... I guess this will be the last I add unless you tag me or quote me asking for help. Good luck I hope you find your solution asap! Man, I appreciate you bouncing ideas! I'm up for trying anything at this point, and it's refreshing to hear other's ideas. Might spark something.
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