|
Post by cdkelly on Dec 28, 2016 10:40:23 GMT -6
Well, I for one am disappointed (but not surprised) that the Bryce went with the 412. It's probably a good marketing decision, (although between the 412 and the 87 he may be branching out a bit too quickly) but I and a few others here were hoping for a WA73 - so now I'm back to the drawing board in my hunt for an affordable high-end mic pre to complement and contrast with my D4's. just keep an eye out in the future, we have looked at doing something along those lines eventually. It just has to really be done right, no corners cut, and that takes a bit of time... hypothetically speaking. Chad/Warm
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Dec 28, 2016 12:00:57 GMT -6
hmm ,, that's an interesting hypothesis
|
|
|
Post by rocinante on Dec 29, 2016 2:35:29 GMT -6
Okay so first off has anyone tried the wa87?
Second: Cinemag make amazing transformers. So does altran but i cant say one is better. Ive used both. A lot and like both.
Third: Putting a 1073 in 500 series aint easy as theyre supposed to run at 24v. On board regulators and noise and heat and sound all get effected. In a design it all matters, not just the audio path. The power supply, wiring, transformers, components.... Which brings me to Fourth: A 1073 is just chock full of expensive components. Transistors like the bc184 (obsolete) or mpsa18 are not cheap and several of the caps in a 1073 cost a few bucks. Then there is the xfmrs. EA 10468s are great but so are carnhills. Ea is probably cheaper. Than theres the specialized pcb's; ba283, ba284 etc... which have the signature pours that add to the neve sound.
Building it yourself the don classics seems the most affordable while still retaining the 1073 feel. AML ez1073 is just beautiful and close as hell to the real McCoy but not the cheapest.
And finally ive bought stuff from chia shin. They make great knobs but you have to buy in quanity. Like at least 50-100. They are really nice and it would be hard to see how one could sue but even if one were to try they could hurt someone.
I like the wa12 a lot. The tone beast only felt marginally better. The wa76 gets used all the time. The 412 seems a great way to get 4 channels of super nice 312 type pres for endless applications. Im very much considering getting the wa87 if its as good as their other products. Two other mics on my list are the mojave 201 and the 3u warbler.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Dec 29, 2016 2:58:44 GMT -6
That's why I bit the wa87 bullet to actually get the mike and use it. Bit of a risk but I have had good experience with other warm products and want the 87 style to compliment my diy c12 and mk-u47. What you said about wa412 is exactly what I am hoping:that super use able api sound (and maybe a little cleaner sound too) to compliment my dizengoff d4's. I would be very interested in a pair of WA73 or whatever they are not developing now hypothetically speaking.
|
|
|
Post by rocinante on Dec 29, 2016 10:37:15 GMT -6
I have 6 channels of api on tap and still reach for the wa12 every session. Its good stuff. Post your thoughts regarding the wa87 as soon as you can please.
|
|
|
Post by cdkelly on Dec 31, 2016 13:22:18 GMT -6
No offence to cinemag but I think most people would say the altran are better in the sense of being more Hi fi ? I am not deep on api knowledge but were the original transformers used by api altran ? My understanding is that Bryce thought these the most authentic ? I understand the 412 op amps provide better S/N ration and improved dynamics but they are swappable so you could put the 412 op amps in the tb12 if you wanted or vice versa, as they follow the 2520 pin out ? The tb12 is sonically more versatile and has more range than the wa12 but whether one considers that better or not I guess is subjective ? >If I were a betting man, my money would be on Altran being a less expensive transformer. Having 4x the transformers in one unit, they need to try to save some dough somewhere to come in at a >price point. If you notice with their other products, the Cinemag name is always front and center on the literature. The Altran doesn't get that treatment. >This has nothing to do with the quality of transformer. I don't know which is better, or closer to original, or any of that. I expect that is probably a sidestep and not a huge change, but again, just >speculation. >They are obviously targeting the API 4312 buyers and the price seems just right to me. With this unit hitting the market, the only way I'll end up with the API unit instead is if this thing ends up >being a total flop and gets dogged by everyone. I don't see that happening though. Great discussion and points. We've always tried to run a pretty open company so I'll chime in with what I know. On the first point, I'm not sure if I agree on the Altran vs Cinemag hi-fi vs pro audio comment; but I don't follow the hi-fi industry as much so I could be wrong. The transformer company with the deepest reach into the hi-fi market that I know of is actually Jensen, outside of companies that strictly cater to hi-fi. Both Altran and Cinemag, to me, live in the pro audio world. The one difference I know of is that the Cinemag name gets touted more often. Alot of great manufacturers use Cinemag, Jensen, and Altran parts; but will only tell you they have a 'custom wound transformer' in there (this allows for easy substitution later without having to inform the public); but Altran, I feel, suffers the most instances of that happening, for whatever reason it may be. For instance, many people would be unaware just how many high end products are using Altran. I probably shouldn't name names, but just off the top of my head I can say Rascal Audio, Burl, Universal Audio, Chandler Ltd, Hairball Audio, Ed Anderson, and quite a few others. I'll probably have to come back and retract that sentence shortly before I get in hot water. haha So what we set out to do is to help make them more of a household name. We put it boldly on the chassis silkscreen, and in really large print on the really large box that the 412 ships in, and of course it's all over the literature and manual. We didn't need to do that; but it just sort of follows the tradition we've liked to keep in running a more open operation than many other companies. There was definitely no conscious attempt to de-emphasize the transformer brand in the 412 any differently than how we've emphasized Cinemag in our other products; so I'm not sure if that's true... The transformer choice and design is SOOO very important and so much a part of what makes the 412 what it is (and accounts for most of the shipping weight!... eight of those suckers in there!), so we wanted it to be front and center... not sure why it would have appeared to not be so. The price difference between the Altran and Cinemag parts were pretty close, actually, and would have hardly affected the end price of the unit. Both are really great quality, and obviously we have a longstanding great relationship with Cinemag, and we've already released another product with Cinemag even since the 412 launched (the WA-87). What this was about was just establishing the right sound for what we were going for, and to a lesser degree, providing a slight degree of separation between what the 412 is and what the current 3124 by API is. We didn't want to clone the 3124; we preferred to give people a second choice that stands out on its own. Cinemag make the current input part used in the 312/512, it's called the CMMI10APC. Amazing part. Cinemag also make the CMOQ output part that can be used in an API; unfortunately API moved to a generic output transformer that I believe is made in India, probably more than 15 years ago. That's the line output part you see on almost every product that has a line output transformer. So, if we wanted to make a perfect, even superior, modern API type product, the Cinemag would be the obvious choice. It's still not a bad product idea at all. But the 412, from the beginning, was an attempt to sort of get back to the vintage API... the legacy console era. There's not a huge difference between them; but there are measurable differences that mostly relate to the way transformers were wound half a century ago being not quite as perfectly regulated as today's digital winding machines can do. Altran had done some work in the past and had figured out how to reproduce transformers of that era for some short-run customers and folks doing console restoration; and that was exactly the part we were looking for. It made alot more sense to get those parts than to start the R&D process for that again from scratch with Cinemag. With regard to the op-amp comment/question, we are doing an 80's era 2520 discrete op-amp in the 412 (all through-hole topology, no SMT); although of course you can put in any op-amp you like. The 2520 sits, I would say, in the middle of the two options in the Tone Beast TB12, which are, I would say, both a fuzzier and a cleaner choice than the older 2520. The TB12's Melcor 1731 is the grand-daddy to the 2520, and has a little earlier breakup, a little more THD overall. The TB12's other option is a Jensen 918, a very clean/modern op-amp. The x520 in the 412 sort of sits in the middle between the two. Still slightly less clean than the modern 2520, which has less THD over all but still does have some subtle pleasing coloration. Hope this helps! Chad/Warm
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Dec 31, 2016 13:54:33 GMT -6
Thx for the history lesson Chad.
I put custom cinemags in my chameleon labs 7802 and my jrr panther ribbon mikes and sure thought they sounded great. The comment about "Hi Fi" was something I had read so thank you for that clarification cus even as I typed it I wondered whether it was an accurate characterization given Cinemag's completely pro lineage and rep!
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Dec 31, 2016 18:01:29 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by cdkelly on Jan 1, 2017 0:48:26 GMT -6
Just a quick PS: someone had mentioned that they thought Altran had at some point made the transformers for some API console series... that's actually not true to the best of my knowledge. Cinemag currently do make all the input transformers, and there is a long history that goes back with Cinemag and API, way before Cinemag when they operated under the name Reichenbach Engineering. It is true, at least as I understand it, that for a time Jensen made the API transformers; although it's also true that in the earlier years of Jensen the transformers bearing their name were actually being made by Reichenbach Engineering... it all gets pretty convoluted. But nonetheless though, Altran definitely did nail the art of replicating the older parts quite well. Chad/Warm
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 1, 2017 2:31:52 GMT -6
That was me:my bad, but it was because of the reference on the Warm site to why you picked Altran re:their custom work. But you explained things clearly in your post above. I think the cinemag reichenback thing comes down to which company bought or now has which companys' patents and Reichenback pre dates Cinemag but Cinemag owns it's own patents and also now owns Reichenbach's ?
Oh and speaking of the passage of time: happy new year everyone !
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Jan 1, 2017 3:50:58 GMT -6
Then there were the Frank De Medio hot rodded API pre's at Sunset Sound. Basically replacing the transformers with high nickel Jensen's and the original op-amps with 990's.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2017 22:57:23 GMT -6
Just checked and Thomann will be stocking them soon (in Europe), they are dirt cheap for what they are 675 euro's. Personally I'm not too fussed if they don't sound one to one with a U87. What I'd want out of this mic is to be similar application wise, where you can use them on any source and 9 out of 10 times it'll sound great.
Won't deny I'm also interested in the STAM-87, hopefully with Thomann's usual returns policy I can try this out with little to no risk.
|
|
|
Post by jakeharris on Jan 3, 2017 21:48:44 GMT -6
Hey Chase.. Thanks man. I'm pretty much heading in the direction you're suggesting. In fact, I'll be heading out to jcoutu's space this afternoon and we're going to shoot out my UM17B with a couple of Neve and API style pre's and my D4. Do you have the redline or blueline capsule in yours?
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Jan 4, 2017 5:31:31 GMT -6
Hey Chase.. Thanks man. I'm pretty much heading in the direction you're suggesting. In fact, I'll be heading out to jcoutu's space this afternoon and we're going to shoot out my UM17B with a couple of Neve and API style pre's and my D4. Do you have the redline or blueline capsule in yours? Redline -- I keep on calling it a UM17B, but really it's a UM17R. It was a special order and I bought it and was one of two with the Redline capsule at the time.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 4, 2017 9:43:14 GMT -6
I had the same mic, and chose the redline over the blueline. I'd had two bluelines previously, and in my case, the redline worked a little better.
To me, the Blueline was more U47-ish, and the redline more U67-ish, although that doesn't make much sense, that's how I heard it.
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 4, 2017 12:46:29 GMT -6
Love my pvc blue line capsule mic... butter smooth
|
|
|
Post by jakeharris on Jan 4, 2017 13:19:42 GMT -6
Whenever I've tried a redline on vox, it always ends up sounding blander than the blueline. Less character/mojo/vibe whatever you want to call it.
Redline, always great for instrument/room mics. Larger bandwidth can be very useful.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jan 4, 2017 14:37:59 GMT -6
Well, I for one am disappointed (but not surprised) that the Bryce went with the 412. It's probably a good marketing decision, (although between the 412 and the 87 he may be branching out a bit too quickly) but I and a few others here were hoping for a WA73 - so now I'm back to the drawing board in my hunt for an affordable high-end mic pre to complement and contrast with my D4's. But Warm have never done anything Neve. I always thought their niche was API inspired gear. With all that said I wonder when CAPI will do their 1073 pre. Don't think jsteiger has any interest in doing that (although I'm trying to convince him to buy Helios from Arny )...the two stage vp28s are a different design altogether from 312 stuff and there seems to be some new stuff on the drawing board according to his Facebook.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jan 4, 2017 14:43:43 GMT -6
Well, I for one am disappointed (but not surprised) that the Bryce went with the 412. It's probably a good marketing decision, (although between the 412 and the 87 he may be branching out a bit too quickly) but I and a few others here were hoping for a WA73 - so now I'm back to the drawing board in my hunt for an affordable high-end mic pre to complement and contrast with my D4's. just keep an eye out in the future, we have looked at doing something along those lines eventually. It just has to really be done right, no corners cut, and that takes a bit of time... hypothetically speaking. Chad/Warm I'd be in for a WA73
|
|
|
Post by jsteiger on Jan 4, 2017 15:22:44 GMT -6
But Warm have never done anything Neve. I always thought their niche was API inspired gear. With all that said I wonder when CAPI will do their 1073 pre. Don't think jsteiger has any interest in doing that (although I'm trying to convince him to buy Helios from Arny )...the two stage vp28s are a different design altogether from 312 stuff and there seems to be some new stuff on the drawing board according to his Facebook. Correct you are fearless leader Johnkenn. My cup overfloweth already.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 4, 2017 15:52:44 GMT -6
I got my wa-412 and 2 wa-87s today.
and no shit, I am seriously impressed with the build quality, feel, heft , the stepped rotaries, etc. Ok, I know, we all know, if a unit has 8 trannies in it, its going to have some weight, but I just mean my sense of it and its finish etc..
Like you, I have had a fair bit of gear and built mikes and other stuff and my first impressions are very, very good !
I just started tracking a new song yesterday so will rack the 412 up and start using it and the mikes immediately.
My drummer is booked for the next week too so those 4 412 api style pres and 2 wa87s are going to be put to good use !!
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Jan 4, 2017 16:13:24 GMT -6
I got my wa-412 and 2 wa-87s today. and no shit, I am seriously impressed with the build quality, feel, heft , the stepped rotaries, etc. Ok, I know, we all know, if a unit has 8 trannies in it, its going to have some weight, but I just mean my sense of it and its finish etc.. Like you, I have had a fair bit of gear and built mikes and other stuff and my first impressions are very, very good ! I just started tracking a new song yesterday so will rack the 412 up and start using it and the mikes immediately. My drummer is booked for the next week too so those 4 412 api style pres and 2 wa87s are going to be put to good use !! awww cmon, bust out the WA87 and give us a quick report.... 8) cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Jan 4, 2017 16:38:38 GMT -6
I got my wa-412 and 2 wa-87s today. and no shit, I am seriously impressed with the build quality, feel, heft , the stepped rotaries, etc. Ok, I know, we all know, if a unit has 8 trannies in it, its going to have some weight, but I just mean my sense of it and its finish etc.. Like you, I have had a fair bit of gear and built mikes and other stuff and my first impressions are very, very good ! I just started tracking a new song yesterday so will rack the 412 up and start using it and the mikes immediately. My drummer is booked for the next week too so those 4 412 api style pres and 2 wa87s are going to be put to good use !! awww cmon, bust out the WA87 and give us a quick report.... 8) cheers Wiz I can give you a quick report, Wiz. It's a great mic! Mid forward, muscular. Sounds classic to me. I've used it on drums, guitars and vocals and it's been great. If I were just starting my mic locker, I'd pick up about 4 of them.
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Jan 4, 2017 16:52:37 GMT -6
awww cmon, bust out the WA87 and give us a quick report.... 8) cheers Wiz I can give you a quick report, Wiz. It's a great mic! Mid forward, muscular. Sounds classic to me. I've used it on drums, guitars and vocals and it's been great. If I were just starting my mic locker, I'd pick up about 4 of them. Honestly, I don't really know why I care.... other than its gear.. and I must have all of it... 8) I guess the place I would use it... I might replace my KM184s on overheads with it.... thats what I guess I am most interested in, in reality.... cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Jan 4, 2017 17:17:46 GMT -6
I can give you a quick report, Wiz. It's a great mic! Mid forward, muscular. Sounds classic to me. I've used it on drums, guitars and vocals and it's been great. If I were just starting my mic locker, I'd pick up about 4 of them. Honestly, I don't really know why I care.... other than its gear.. and I must have all of it... 8) I guess the place I would use it... I might replace my KM184s on overheads with it.... thats what I guess I am most interested in, in reality.... cheers Wiz I think it would be excellent there, if you want an LDC. Very much in the ballpark of U87s.
|
|