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Post by johneppstein on Feb 4, 2017 15:32:13 GMT -6
These things always come with "internet emptor" ... cheers Wiz Er, don't you mean "caveat internet"? "Emptor" means "buyer", "Caveat" means "beware".
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Post by wiz on Feb 4, 2017 15:47:19 GMT -6
These things always come with "internet emptor" ... cheers Wiz Er, don't you mean "caveat internet"? "Emptor" means "buyer", "Caveat" means "beware". carpe fish cheers Wiz
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Post by aamicrophones on Feb 5, 2017 1:26:25 GMT -6
Thanks Dave, that was fun to know about. I had a U87 I used every day for at least ten years. It was made in 1980. I sold it, but I know the "vintage" U87 sound in my bones. I'll know where the WA87 stands in comparison when I hear it, but for sure, Bryce has managed the nearly impossible in getting so close to a U87 sound that you might find it fits right in if you had 3 or 4 Neumann U87's to compare to. I'll get one in a couple of month. I gotta pay of my WA2A first :-) Hi Martin, I thinks that's part of it. I used U87's for over 10 years as well but mostly for voiceover work. We preferred the U47's on vocals or on occasion the 414eb's or the C37a. Our ears were just use to the sound of "rock" vocals through the U47's and radio talk voices through a U87. There was only one or two producers I can ever remember asking for a U87 over the U47. One was a Punk Rock producer and the band had a screaming female singer and when you soloed the U87 it sounded quite "nasty" to my Folk Rock/Jazz/Blues ears. However, it worked in the dense mix. The U47 would have never worked without adding 12k to the vocals in the mix which would bring up some tape hiss. I can always hear the 2nd harmonic distortion increase in a U87 when you push it which is not a totally unpleasant sound. This makes total sense when you look at the Neumann printed spec's and you see the maximum output from the XLR is 390mv or -6dbu. The original C414 emitter follower circuit that we use is capable of providing 5.5v at the XLR or +10dbu. In 1985 we got a contract to record voice actors for a cartoon series. There were 5 actors and the contract required a U87 on each actor. At that time we had two 87's but one lived in the voice-over booth so we had to buy 4-U87's to get the gig. Even in 1985 a sharp pencil price was $1800 each. That would pay the mortgage for a year in 1985. That was when I seriously started wondering why the 87's were $1800 each and there were only $25 worth of parts no counting the body and capsule. They sold in 1968 for $400. So, I really I began to get very interested in microphone circuits during that time. Bob Rock use to sneak over to Ocean to cut vocals because we had two U47's and they only had 87's at Little Mountain. Also, Dusty Wakeman now from Mojave Microphones came to Ocean in 1988 to record KD Lang and Roy Orbison singing "CRYING" which one the Grammy that year. Folks, would ask after that which one of the U47's did they use and no one could remember. Probably, whichever one was up in the big room at the time. It was definitely in OMNI as they both sang together. So, the U47 and the Trident became legendary. However, I have heard some great tracks on a U87. One thing I know!!! There is no magic in microphones the magic comes from the performance and the microphones job is too capture that performance. Sorry, to digress!!! But I think the WA87 does the original U87 "thing" quite respectfully and I don't think the $2900 difference for the "real thing" could be rationalized. The 87AI never sounded to my old early quite like the original before 1988. However, as you suggested that was what we were using and listening to everyday back in the 80's. There were also variations between between the older 87's as electronic component tolerances were not as good at the beginning of the Space Race as they are today. The closest you could get between capsules in the late 60's even when skinned with mylar was + & - 2db across the audio bandwidth. How, is the best way for me to post audio clips. Should I send them to our U-Tube page and a link to RGO? Cheers, Dave aamicrophones.com
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 5, 2017 3:05:05 GMT -6
I'm glad Wiz was " that guy " first. ๐ Not even listening on my studio monitors I knew C was the real 87ai. From the first guitar track you could hear the harsh song and brittleness in the hand sliding motion on the strings in the peluso. The warm and 87ai didn't have the abrasive sound. Also two of the mics capsules are off axis recording the guitar? The solo vox ( Wait what I am I seeing, styro tile ceilings but extravagant chestnut diffusers/ absorber wall wtf? ) was another ear opener when he sings words like best, score, least the warm and Neumann handle this well whereas the Peluso falls short and presents a sharp but grating sand papery like sound. The mids are so full on the 87, gotta love that capsule, that slight bite, where the capsule slightly saturates the 2-5khz to smooth / caress thise frequencies even made this singer sound tolerable. I agree for the price point the Warm is hard to beat, however Please use the Warm mic ( side by side with a real 87 if possible ) in your room to know how well it will work for you. For some users the Warm will be the best thing since sliced bread and the 10% differences won't matter due to the $$$$ increase for the real neumann. For others it will be another mass produced mic capable of capturing good audio in the studio, but not the " authentic u87 sound ".
Believe me I want this WA87 to be a huge success sound wise and market wise and shake up the mic scene! ๐ I would love to see real new u87ai for around $1500-$1800 ( MAP) then more people could experience that mic, the price tag takes away from its glory imo... if the 87ai was $1200- $1500 then ppl wouldn't put so much pressure on the WA87 to live up to the " 87 " pedigree ๐๐ค
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 5, 2017 11:39:42 GMT -6
Thanks Dave. After you a quick reply to the thread, go up to the "edit" button. It'll take you to a page with a dozen mini thumbnail options. Click on the link to YouTube or Soundclousd icons, and you can then insert the URL into your post. Hit save changes, and it shows up in the thread. The youtube videos and Soundcloud links are cool because you can play them right from the realgear page.
Those are some interesting thoughts Chase!
There's a certain "air" in the U87 that is my benchmark. When I auditioned mics 4 years ago to get started again, I tried my Shure SM58, then the Bock Audio 195, and finally settled on the Blackspade UM-17. That mic had the same kind of pickup pattern the U87 did, but the Bock sounded like it was halfway to Omni when in cardioid. The Bock sounded fantastic on acoustic guitar but diffuse on vocals. I wish I could have kept it for acoustics.
When I did my high end mic shootout, the U47, the Blackspade UM-17R, the Soyuz and U67 pickup patterns felt right to me. The U47 and Blackspade had the M7 style capsule, ad the Soyuz and U67 had K67 style capsules. Both sounded right to me, never seeming to wide or too tight a pickup pattern. The K67 capsule was better for my voice, even though the U47 was just absolutely perfect. Right now I'm using the Soyuz 0-19 FET. I miss the tube, but it amazing mic in its own right. Soyuz are the first mics that to my ears are equal to the best, like Neuman's, Telefunken's, etc. They're a little different, sweeter, but world class.
I heard Ragan's U67 with the Max Mod, and I'd grab that mic in a heartbeat if I was shopping and had some cash for it. What a fantastic sound it has.
I'm looking forward to trying the WA87 though. Mostly, I want to see how it rolls with just a pinch of EQ in the very high "air" frequencies.
If I was a studio owner, I'd be grabbing two of them for overhead duties in a second.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 5, 2017 11:57:53 GMT -6
I don't Here air in AI's I here an edgy distorted highend, almost like something is on verge of clipping! In fact anytime I would grab the Air band with an AI I thought it sounded like a department store solid state guitar amp!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 5, 2017 12:15:18 GMT -6
I've never used one at home, so you're probably right Ericn. The "air" I was referring to was in my U87 from 1980, and by "air" in that context, I should probably should have used the term wider pickup pattern. The U87 picked up just the right amount of room,(AKA real air :-), and while sounding quite cardioid, had a bigness about it. When I tried the U87AI for two minutes in the mic room at B&H in NYC, it clearly was U87, but seemed kind of too much, probably from the high end push you were speaking of.
That's why I'm looking forward to trying the WA87 for myself. In the shootout, the 87AI had just a little more presence, but at home, I might find it to be too much for my vocals. If the WA87 truly does capture the vintage 87 sound, I'll know when I hear it.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 5, 2017 13:12:55 GMT -6
I would love to record an album with a U87Ai and a pair of KM184 just to prove everyone wrong, haha. Neumann sure does catch a lot of flack for their new designs, but I think they sound pretty awesome.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 5, 2017 13:42:12 GMT -6
When I was comparing the $1,900 Telfunken AR-51,AK-47, the Mojave tube and FET's, and a half dozen other mics at B&H, I must say the U87AI did sound more impressive, even though I'm a little wary of the top end when I hear files. So, although we're picking nits, it's definitely a superior quality mic. The only mic I prefered to it among the substantial selection was the $3,500 Soyuz 0-17 which they had for a few weeks there.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 5, 2017 15:07:00 GMT -6
I would love to record an album with a U87Ai and a pair of KM184 just to prove everyone wrong, haha. Neumann sure does catch a lot of flack for their new designs, but I think they sound pretty awesome. Been their done that just a lot more work than others!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 5, 2017 15:07:40 GMT -6
I've never used one at home, so you're probably right Ericn. The "air" I was referring to was in my U87 from 1980, and by "air" in that context, I should probably should have used the term wider pickup pattern. The U87 picked up just the right amount of room,(AKA real air :-), and while sounding quite cardioid, had a bigness about it. When I tried the U87AI for two minutes in the mic room at B&H in NYC, it clearly was U87, but seemed kind of too much, probably from the high end push you were speaking of. That's why I'm looking forward to trying the WA87 for myself. In the shootout, the 87AI had just a little more presence, but at home, I might find it to be too much for my vocals. If the WA87 truly does capture the vintage 87 sound, I'll know when I hear it. Pre AI that has Air!
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Post by reddirt on Feb 5, 2017 15:35:54 GMT -6
My take FWIW through my office computer speakers was that the Warm sounded pretty smooth and well worth the attention it's getting.
Personally, I've sprung for the Stam Sowter version which will be ready mid March so that will be interesting; gut feeling says that it will be right up there with the AI and possibly better given that there's an emphasis on replicating the pre AI model and it's reputed smoother quality.
Why have I gone for the Stam? - somewhat blind faith that it will be a little better than the Warm , certainly it has very high quality parts throughout. I have a fair amount of need for a mic that does that "everyday" work (voice overs, travel guides, most instruments with quality) and hopefully paired with my BAE 1073 MP will cover that vocal ground that doesn't require a specialist mic. Karen Carpenter used one so it can sound fabulous.
So having said that, why not buy a Neumann 87AI? The limited experience i've had with one played out in similar way to what ericn describes 3 posts back and I also hear it in he shootout - that edge threatening which digital can't hide and with the wrong singer is not for me. Given that and the price differential I believe I will find a happy ground with the Stam 87; it certainly will be used.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by Ward on Feb 5, 2017 15:57:43 GMT -6
WA87, P87, and a U87AI. I have to email them for the results. Interesting either way. thanks for posting this. On the one hand... This is an unfair comparison because most who own both know that a U87ai does not sound like a good vintage U87. On the other hand... This is a totally fair comparison because these three mics are modeled after the original U87 and are all current offerings. Now, for the love of God, Ward, make your point, man...OK OK .... Neither of these mics sound like exactly like a U87, even though they're all sort of U87-ish 1. Warm 87: the harmonic distortion is different to a U87, it's shifted up a bit it would seem. It doesn't add that oomph in the lower mid 100-200hz area but is more in the annoying low-mud 250-350z area. 2. Peluso 87: Same thing everyone hears in a peluso mic. It's always a pretty good replica, but it does have a little more 500 HZ to the sound, which can be subtracted out, but it's there. About -1db with a Q of .500 at the 500 mark and you'd be good. 3. Sennheiser U87: ERMERGERDDDD... the sibilance drives me nuts. And the high mid distortion. you can angle the mic about 15ยบ and get rid of some of this, but whatever happened, when they made the ai, it got a little more "Rizzy" and it has gotten subsequently more so with each passing year. Even my 1987 U87ai drives me up the wall with this. I'm awaiting stam to get his ready. he says he'll send me one to put against some of my mics, which means I have to get my lazy arse in gear to do an actual shootout.
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Post by Ward on Feb 5, 2017 19:38:29 GMT -6
P.S. Yes, out of those 3, the WA87 does seem to have the edge.
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Post by geoff738 on Mar 6, 2017 19:31:59 GMT -6
Are these out in people's hands yet?
if so, what's the verdict?
cheers, Geoff
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 6, 2017 19:44:00 GMT -6
The mike and pre have been available for a while now. I have some drums (overheads) clips and a voice over at soundcloud kcatthedog and I made a demo of the drum tracking session. I'm certainly pleased but I have never used a real 87 the voice over when I am not on camera, is the mike into the 412 and a little vari mu ua comp and a logic reverb
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 29, 2017 12:03:04 GMT -6
I just came across this and feel it's worth sharing. Zenpro Audio just announced their WA87 Zenpro mod which upgrades the cinemag transformer to a Tab Funkenwerk transformer. They also posted clips in their clipilator. They originally posted a WA87 vs an original U87 set of clips. They duplicated that shoot out with the stock WA87 and their upgraded WA87. I personally think the modded WA87 sounds fantastic. I was going to pick up a WA87 anyway, but I'm pretty sure this is the one I'm gonna pick up. Check it out. WA87 Zenpro Mod: www.zenproaudio.com/warm-audio-wa-87-zenpro-modClipalator: Select microphones and scroll all the way to the bottom for the WA87. www.zenproaudio.com/clipalator
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Post by ChaseUTB on Apr 22, 2017 3:46:21 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 22, 2017 8:23:14 GMT -6
Dang, that mod is a curveball I didn't see coming. I'm wondering if the Tab Funkenwerk transformer is NOS and if Oliver's wife managed to get things moving again. I think that both the Warm as is, and with the TF transformer sound good. I've had excellent experiences with Oliver's transformationrmer designs, so I'd probably think seriously about that if I was buying a WA87 right now.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 22, 2017 13:16:41 GMT -6
very simple mod just buy it yourself and unsolder and solder 2 cables and secure the transformer: done ! I think I have that transformer from my diy c12 build as I later installed the Cinemag instead If I do I will install in one and then run same source through both mikes through 2 channels of 412: same settings and post clips
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 22, 2017 13:53:30 GMT -6
That would be very cool kcat.
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Post by wiz on Apr 22, 2017 17:48:20 GMT -6
what mod? what video? 8) nothing comes up.. except a you tube error... got another link please? cheers Wiz
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 22, 2017 18:25:00 GMT -6
I don't think the video has to do with the mod Zenpro is putting in a tab T13 tranni This is the ZenPro Audio TAB T13 modified version. What We Do Replace factory output transformer with the TAB Funkenwerk T13 You can hear the stock vs mod version in our Clipalator mic folder now! www.zenproaudio.com/warm-audio-wa-87-zenpro-mod
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Post by ChaseUTB on Apr 23, 2017 1:21:51 GMT -6
what mod? what video? ย 8) nothing comes up.. except a you tube error... got another link please? cheers Wiz I apologize
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Post by joseph on Apr 23, 2017 14:12:38 GMT -6
The tab modified one seems to have a better harmonic balance and is a little less hard sounding.
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