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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2017 9:01:32 GMT -6
shadowland said, "Question is does the U87 sound really fit my voice? Now you're talkin'. If you're not very compatible with a U87, the slight differences between the two mics wouldn't matter much. I ran in circles for years trying to find the best fit for my voice. Unfortunately, I couldn't just buy U87 then. I had a U87 for a decade and used it every day to make hundreds of recordings with many different kinds of vocalists and announcers, and not once, not ever, was the mic an issue.
I've changed since then, so I was hoping a $1,000 mic might do what I needed, and the mic I chose was very close, but never fully satisfying. It figures that I finally figured out the U67 is the best mic for my voice, and it was no big surprise, because it shares the same capsule as the 87.
Of course you're right Jake, there are some very interesting choices at that price point. The Aston Spirit, the MXL Heritage series, the 3U, the Avantone CV95 among them. Where I'm impressed is that if you work well with a U87, the $600 WA87 could very well be just what you need for $2,600 less. That's not chump change, for sure. I'll definitely give one a try a few weeks from now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 11:11:53 GMT -6
shadowland said, "Question is does the U87 sound really fit my voice? Now you're talkin'. If you're not very compatible with a U87, the slight differences between the two mics wouldn't matter much. I ran in circles for years trying to find the best fit for my voice. Unfortunately, I couldn't just buy U87 then. I had a U87 for a decade and used it every day to make hundreds of recordings with many different kinds of vocalists and announcers, and not once, not ever, was the mic an issue. I've changed since then, so I was hoping a $1,000 mic might do what I needed, and the mic I chose was very close, but never fully satisfying. It figures that I finally figured out the U67 is the best mic for my voice, and it was no big surprise, because it shares the same capsule as the 87. Of course you're right Jake, there are some very interesting choices at that price point. The Aston Spirit, the MXL Heritage series, the 3U, the Avantone CV95 among them. Where I'm impressed is that if you work well with a U87, the $600 WA87 could very well be just what you need for $2,600 less. That's not chump change, for sure. I'll definitely give one a try a few weeks from now. Shadowland??? LOL! I'm not compatible with a lot of mics, simply because today they have a habbit of making them way too bright and they can't take enough of a beating. When I'm going for it I have to back off the mic a fair bit and they just end up sounding very shrill. Hence going for slightly darker mic's like the Mojave Fet and for the most part they do work well, although just like the TLM-193 (in the other thread) they seem in an odd way a little "restricted". I've seen a few instances now where darker (slightly compressed sounding) mic's are as smooth as butter but strip the nuts out of the recording.. It's trying to find a compromise between the two and it ain't as easy as it looks. I must say if warm audio was to release a version of a U67 (not the TLM version), I'd have to instantly throw money their way.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2017 11:37:51 GMT -6
Spell checkers can do some odd things sometimes!
A WA67 would be VERY interesting indeed. Maybe it's not such a stretch from the WA87, or who knows, maybe the Max mod would work. But would it be worth it? I can't say. If I was looking for a U67, I'd definitely consider the Max Mod for the TLM 67 that Ragan did.
I think Warm would do well to take on the KM84, since they certainly hit their target with the 87.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 11, 2017 18:05:06 GMT -6
I enjoy my Studio Projects C3 modded by microphone-parts.com. It's pretty close to my U87AI, but warmer. I used it on my mic test I posted. It's also not a bad choice for a U87 style mic. I can also open it up and tweak the high frequency response.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2017 20:09:21 GMT -6
Bravisimo Vincent!
They all sound good to me except the Studio Projects. The U87 and the CM12VE were my choices. The 87 has a real "you are there" feeling, and the CM12 sounded more like you were in the last third section of a concert hall. I would choose the 87 in this case, it sounds more intimate.
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Post by iamasound on Jan 12, 2017 12:49:15 GMT -6
The U87 killed it in this here contest for me. Perhaps because it was the most familiar tone, but maybe not.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 12, 2017 14:36:07 GMT -6
Bravisimo Vincent! They all sound good to me except the Studio Projects. The U87 and the CM12VE were my choices. The 87 has a real "you are there" feeling, and the CM12 sounded more like you were in the last third section of a concert hall. I would choose the 87 in this case, it sounds more intimate. Thanks Martin. I agree, the U87 was the right choice in this shoot out. I prefer the CM67 to the CM12 though. There's something in the high range I like about it. It's missing a bit of low range though. I actually prefer it in the vintage mode that was made custom for me. It's more like a traditional U67. However it's not featured in is this video. I ended up using the CM67 in my whole live "Granada" video. It's on my YouTube page. I EQed some of the top end out to minimize some of the brightness.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 19, 2017 20:09:44 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 19, 2017 20:18:19 GMT -6
I believe this is a case of the kettle calling the pot black
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 20, 2017 0:09:53 GMT -6
One thing about the bad Chinese caps/mikes, remember that their engineers originally went to the neumann factories to learn so did know how to build things properly to spec, but I think chose to reduce manufacturing costs and to skimp on QC/QA, which resulted in the inconsistent products. I know that is not what Bryce wanted and that he searched for a high quality chinese manufacturer. According to what I've been told by Michael Joly, if you want good results out of China you absolutely MUST go there in person and either relocate there yourself or make very regular inspection trips to your chosen factory, else they'll send you a good first shipment and then successive shipments get progressively worse. You MUST stay on their ass in person. Sure, their engineers are trained in the right way to build things - but the whole culture is instilled with the "ethic" of getting over on the foreigners. Remember that they are not cosmopolitan like us - they have many millennia of rampant xenophobia instilled in their psyche.
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Post by ragan on Jan 20, 2017 2:15:06 GMT -6
One thing about the bad Chinese caps/mikes, remember that their engineers originally went to the neumann factories to learn so did know how to build things properly to spec, but I think chose to reduce manufacturing costs and to skimp on QC/QA, which resulted in the inconsistent products. I know that is not what Bryce wanted and that he searched for a high quality chinese manufacturer. According to what I've been told by Michael Joly, if you want good results out of China you absolutely MUST go there in person and either relocate there yourself or make very regular inspection trips to your chosen factory, else they'll send you a good first shipment and then successive shipments get progressively worse. You MUST stay on their ass in person. Sure, their engineers are trained in the right way to build things - but the whole culture is instilled with the "ethic" of getting over on the foreigners. Remember that they are not cosmopolitan like us - they have many millennia of rampant xenophobia instilled in their psyche. This strikes me as kind of...paranoid xenophobic? "They" are so different from "us" in your mind? "They" have a bottom line just like "us". Deliver a shitty product and you don't get the next order. That's how manufacturing works. Pardon me if I don't take Michael Joy's OEM theories seriously. His whole business is predicated on the idea that us 'non-Joly' folk can't just order our own upgraded OEM Chinese parts and swap them in for an improvement. The notion that we need him or his ilk looking over the shoulder of those shifty Chinese hucksters sounds...nakedly self serving and ridiculous to me. But hey, to each their own.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 20, 2017 3:18:00 GMT -6
I think business is business the world over and you can choose to work with good people and companies and the quality will be in those better relationships and supply chains and consumer knowledge.
Our conversation is an example of both things being true:considered consumerism and manufacturing variance for what ever reasons.
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Post by jakeharris on Jan 20, 2017 5:06:22 GMT -6
According to what I've been told by Michael Joly, if you want good results out of China you absolutely MUST go there in person and either relocate there yourself or make very regular inspection trips to your chosen factory, else they'll send you a good first shipment and then successive shipments get progressively worse. You MUST stay on their ass in person. Sure, their engineers are trained in the right way to build things - but the whole culture is instilled with the "ethic" of getting over on the foreigners. Remember that they are not cosmopolitan like us - they have many millennia of rampant xenophobia instilled in their psyche. Treat someone like a human being instead of a servant or a commodity, and you'll find they won't try and constantly fuck you over.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 20, 2017 6:18:05 GMT -6
Honestly, how bout we keep the political views out of of it ?
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Post by m03 on Jan 20, 2017 17:16:57 GMT -6
"They" are so different from "us" in your mind? "They" have a bottom line just like "us". Deliver a shitty product and you don't get the next order. That's how manufacturing works. Eh, I've had similar experiences having small-run items made. It seems to be more of a "they probably wont notice" or "the precise specifications that were provided aren't as big a deal as the customer said" type situation.
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Post by ragan on Jan 20, 2017 17:30:59 GMT -6
"They" are so different from "us" in your mind? "They" have a bottom line just like "us". Deliver a shitty product and you don't get the next order. That's how manufacturing works. Eh, I've had similar experiences having small-run items made. It seems to be more of a "they probably wont notice" or "the precise specifications that were provided aren't as big a deal as the customer said" type situation. Indeed. I just think the insinuation that it's because of Chinese "culture" is incorrect. At best. I have a couple friends with some involvement in manufacturing. That happens in the US, Europe, everywhere. There are high and low quality (including ethically) manufacturers anywhere you look.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 20, 2017 18:00:06 GMT -6
I think the thing about Chinese products is that every few months there's some announcement that some product made has some weird chemical additive that's toxic and possibly lethal. Put something poisonous to your dog in a chew toy, well uh.. or some kid's toy gives them a terrible rash in their mouth, sorry, we'll punish that bad manufacturer who got caught.
So, the reputation of all Chinese products is affected by these egregious instances. I'm sure if the will was there, they could make a capsule in China that's every bit as good as anything made anywhere else, but that hasn't happened yet. So, until the promise and potential is reached, we remain skeptical of Chinese made products for good reason.
The market will sort it out, and I agree with Ragan, but that's no consolation if your dog dies from a chew toy.
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Post by ragan on Jan 20, 2017 18:42:15 GMT -6
I think the thing about Chinese products is that every few months there's some announcement that some product made has some weird chemical additive that's toxic and possibly lethal. Put something poisonous to your dog in a chew toy, well uh.. or some kid's toy gives them a terrible rash in their mouth, sorry, we'll punish that bad manufacturer who got caught. So, the reputation of all Chinese products is affected by these egregious instances. I'm sure if the will was there, they could make a capsule in China that's every bit as good as anything made anywhere else, but that hasn't happened yet. So, until the promise and potential is reached, we remain skeptical of Chinese made products for good reason. The market will sort it out, and I agree with Ragan, but that's no consolation if your dog dies from a chew toy. That's true. But it also bears pointing out that an enormous chunk of all the stuff we buy is being made there so the odd are way skewed. But yeah. And I'm not saying China is this shining beacon of perfect manufacturing by any stretch. I just think that some (SOME) of its bad reputation is unjustified.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 20, 2017 18:50:22 GMT -6
and it sure is great that Bryce goes to so much trouble to have a good QC oriented Chinese manufacturer, ah, you know just to get this back on topic , I'd post more clips but got no interface: boo hoo ! had to postpone drumming session with the 412 and 87s a week ! I have decided to just use 4 mikes and just the wa 412: 57 on the snare, akg on kick and the 2 wa87s on overheads: all through the 412. I'll experiment with my mk-u47 as a room mike well out in front of the kick and lower down and proably through my Diz d4.
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Post by jakeharris on Jan 21, 2017 1:59:28 GMT -6
The internet won't explode if you allowed this discussion to go where it wants to...
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 21, 2017 6:01:01 GMT -6
and neither would it be bad to stay a little more on topic
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 29, 2017 6:05:01 GMT -6
btw, now that my symphony mkii has shown up and I have it all functional. my drumming session with the wa412 and 87s is scheduled for the first Monday in February. I have been tweaking my room with some new absorbers and working on the design in the end where the drums will be set up to get it dryer so I hope that translate to cleaner capture but with some nice early reflections. Thx to MrHolmes here for his help. I'll be posting clips: more later, but so far I am really liking the wa412 and am thinking bout selling my dizengoff d4's to get another wa412 (It never stops does it
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Post by rowmat on Jan 29, 2017 7:12:21 GMT -6
One thing about the bad Chinese caps/mikes, remember that their engineers originally went to the neumann factories to learn so did know how to build things properly to spec, but I think chose to reduce manufacturing costs and to skimp on QC/QA, which resulted in the inconsistent products. I know that is not what Bryce wanted and that he searched for a high quality chinese manufacturer. According to what I've been told by Michael Joly, if you want good results out of China you absolutely MUST go there in person and either relocate there yourself or make very regular inspection trips to your chosen factory, else they'll send you a good first shipment and then successive shipments get progressively worse. You MUST stay on their ass in person. Sure, their engineers are trained in the right way to build things - but the whole culture is instilled with the "ethic" of getting over on the foreigners. Remember that they are not cosmopolitan like us - they have many millennia of rampant xenophobia instilled in their psyche. In 2008 I was flying back from Hong Kong after a business trip and sat next to a guy from Sydney who told me he was screwed by a Chinese manufacturer he had contracted along with his business partners to manufacture some kind of automated motorised golf caddy that followed the golfer around the course. He and his partners had been working on the product for years and after signing off on the final production prototype and paying the company something like $3 million upfront for the first production run they discovered that all the units that were delivered to them were total shit and completely unsaleable. The manufacturer who produced the production prototypes and had been contracted to manufacture the remainder of the caddies had secretly subcontracted out the manufacturing to another company who built them with substandard components and poor quality control for a much cheaper price. He and his partners had been to China many times and had been in constant communication with the manufacturer over a couple of years and still got screwed. Of course no help from the Chinese government or the Australian government who didn't want to make waves. The upshot was he was likely to lose his house, his marriage and end up bankrupt with a bunch of angry investors wanting his blood.
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Post by jakeharris on Jan 29, 2017 13:01:55 GMT -6
30/30/40 payments, or walk away
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 30, 2017 12:02:57 GMT -6
I'm very sorry to hear that... Yikes... 3 mill upfront.... I would want to live in that factory or be present every step of the way.. Plus for 3 mill I'm having my own supervisor supervise their supervisors, that's a super vision 😂
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