kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 6, 2017 11:22:02 GMT -6
ha ha, I kind of played and recorded my larrivee acoustic for close to 5 years (almost no electric), so was just surprised at the way the mikes were set up, as they would so obviously sound different: any mike closer to the soundhole will get more of the bass and the opposite for the other mike, especially on a large body acoustic ?
The neumann certainly have nice finesse, would just like to hear this with mikes switched or re positioned in line vertically or the two mikes horizontally parallel to the ground, basically to better control for the positioning effect ?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 6, 2017 12:16:51 GMT -6
Well, here's the male vocal part of that shootout,. For once, one of these clones is actually quite close. Who knows, if they had a dozen U87's it's likely there would be similar differences between the Neumann's as well. On a very subtle level, the Neumann has a little more low end and a pinch more transparency, (air). They're so close though, with a touch of EQ, I don't think they'd be easily distinguished. Well done Warm, I'm even gassier now than before.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 6, 2017 13:37:58 GMT -6
Ok the wa87 sounds better on the vox to me... however an 87 is not the mic I would use for this guys voice... The wa87 seemed brighter on the acoustic guitar, especially during the quick hand slides... ( is that his playing technique or the mics? )
Idk every time I see one of these YT vids in a product I'm interested in, it reassures I have to use the gear to really know if it's for me...
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Post by M57 on Jan 6, 2017 17:59:44 GMT -6
Kind of an OTB thought, but might it be possible to stuff a transformer in the MKID? Is that a potential mod? The MKID already has a transformer FYI. I did not know that, and I have an MKID . So it could likely be upgraded.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 18:06:12 GMT -6
Ok the wa87 sounds better on the vox to me... however an 87 is not the mic I would use for this guys voice... The wa87 seemed brighter on the acoustic guitar, especially during the quick hand slides... ( is that his playing technique or the mics? ) Idk every time I see one of these YT vids in a product I'm interested in, it reassures I have to use the gear to really know if it's for me... I know tube isn't exactly the critical reference point for A/B tests. But was there actually much of a difference? I do agree, I did prefer the WA87.. Then again there wasn't a night and day difference between the 3U Audio stuff I kept A/B'ing.. I think at this point, you go for what you can afford and make sweet music.!
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 6, 2017 19:36:45 GMT -6
The WA-87 is voiced like the Warbler MKID (U87 style) but has the better transformer like the GZ67Fet (Cinemag for the WA-87, AMI for the GZ67Fet). It really strikes me a lot like a GZ version of the Warbler MKID. I absolutely love my Warblers but you can hear the clarity you get from a nicer transformer when you listen to the GZ67Fet or the WA87. Of course, the WA-87 and GZ67Fet are both $599 and the Warbler MKID is $349 so that's a factor too. All of them are very nice mics, just depends on what voicing you're after and what your budget is. So, is the GZ67 similar enough to the WA87 so that you wouldn't need to audition them both? Seems like it'd be a waste of time and resource if they're super close. Both the same price and all.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 6, 2017 21:40:38 GMT -6
Ok the wa87 sounds better on the vox to me... however an 87 is not the mic I would use for this guys voice... The wa87 seemed brighter on the acoustic guitar, especially during the quick hand slides... ( is that his playing technique or the mics? ) Idk every time I see one of these YT vids in a product I'm interested in, it reassures I have to use the gear to really know if it's for me... I know tube isn't exactly the critical reference point for A/B tests. But was there actually much of a difference? I do agree, I did prefer the WA87.. Then again there wasn't a night and day difference between the 3U Audio stuff I kept A/B'ing.. I think at this point, you go for what you can afford and make sweet music.! I know that was my preference that I liked the wa87 on vox better however liked u87 on guitar better... Me not wanting to mic that male vocalist with the u87 is, I know, hard to believe ( 🤣 ), but his voice is already prominent enough in that frequency area where I would be spending more time sirgicallly eqing the vox. The wa87 doesn't share that same strong mid presence on this vocalist that ( vintage ) Neumann capsules and mics produce.. Now don't get me wrong if I had an 87 only to mic him I would do it with a smile and get the best take possible. Make the rough mix shine, so he would be happy leaving the studio and have something to play elsewhere. If paid to mix, then I would have no issue making it happen successfully with a great vox sound 😀 You could reverse it and say if all I had was the wa87 for the guitar, then I would make it happen likewise with the wa87 🤣🤠 My choices mic wise: I would use a Miktek cv3/ Akg c414 ( flatter version )/ Telefunken copperhead/ Neumann m49/ Sony c800g/ and if I had any mic to choose I would throw up the real Akg c12 for his voice and guitar.... as well as overdub vox
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Post by ragan on Jan 6, 2017 23:18:11 GMT -6
The WA-87 is voiced like the Warbler MKID (U87 style) but has the better transformer like the GZ67Fet (Cinemag for the WA-87, AMI for the GZ67Fet). It really strikes me a lot like a GZ version of the Warbler MKID. I absolutely love my Warblers but you can hear the clarity you get from a nicer transformer when you listen to the GZ67Fet or the WA87. Of course, the WA-87 and GZ67Fet are both $599 and the Warbler MKID is $349 so that's a factor too. All of them are very nice mics, just depends on what voicing you're after and what your budget is. So, is the GZ67 similar enough to the WA87 so that you wouldn't need to audition them both? Seems like it'd be a waste of time and resource if they're super close. Both the same price and all. They are voiced pretty different, but they both share a detail and clarity that the Warblers (though great mics) don't quite have. The WA-87 is voiced very similar to the U87 (as is the MKID). So it has more mid push than the GZ67, which is voiced after the m269. GZ67 has more air up top and less of that 2-5k U87 thing.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 7, 2017 7:59:17 GMT -6
So, is the GZ67 similar enough to the WA87 so that you wouldn't need to audition them both? Seems like it'd be a waste of time and resource if they're super close. Both the same price and all. They are voiced pretty different, but they both share a detail and clarity that the Warblers (though great mics) don't quite have. The WA-87 is voiced very similar to the U87 (as is the MKID). So it has more mid push than the GZ67, which is voiced after the m269. GZ67 has more air up top and less of that 2-5k U87 thing. Ah, makes sense.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 7, 2017 9:50:09 GMT -6
kcat posted some preliminary files. It was a quickie guitar & vocal, so we could get an idea of how the WA87 sounds. I've heard his tracks for years. He's got a beautiful U-47 with I think, Max's parts, and a C-12 he put together at no small cost and no small effort. The WA87 tracks sound better than his other mics, no doubt about it.
So, you can surmise an 87 style mic is a good fit for him, the Warm WA-412 works well with it, but mostly, the WA87 is viable. I seems like it doesn't have any of the usual faults we've all detested in many Chines capsule mics, even some higher end Thiersch M7 capsule mics.
I haven't tried it yet, and of course, I'd love to compare it side by side with a vintage 87, but that said, it's clear the 87 is a contender for the affordable, but pro mic sweepstakes, and I want to try one soon.
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Post by Ward on Jan 7, 2017 16:27:06 GMT -6
I haven't tried it yet, and of course, I'd love to compare it side by side with a vintage 87, but that said, it's clear the 87 is a contender for the affordable, but pro mic sweepstakes, and I want to try one soon. Excellent post, Martin John Butler, and don't take this the wrong way or as a slight toward Warm Audio. But be careful not to mistake saccharin for sugar. If you follow my drift.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 7, 2017 16:33:18 GMT -6
I think that is how I feel, each mike has its own typology and will compliment different singers in different ways or not. I have had a variety of "good -very good" mikes: ribbons, ldc, cascade jet, rode, my diy c12 and mk-u47, all good mikes but I never felt the right one for my voice. Sort of obvious in retrospect that the 67/87 typology was what I hadn't yet tried: enter the wa87 and I find I am finally having the set up the mike and just get good recording experience that I had hoped for. I was punching in some acoustic guitar in a new bridge part of my new song today, very straightforward to get a good sound and be up and recording in no time. So, of course I am very happy as I bought these 2 wa87 on a hope and a prayer and, yes , it does make me wonder so what is a really good vintage 87 like
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 7, 2017 22:06:46 GMT -6
I'll know when I get one just how good it is. If there's one thing I'm unforgiving about, it's microphones. Having been lucky enough to try the classics recently in a world class studio, I can say a C12, (which I used to revere), had an odd sound to me, smooth highs, nice lows, but hollow in the middle, the M49 was just a little too "old time radio" thin, the U47 was flawless, I'd be glad to own it, but still wasn't the most flattering to my voice, the Blackspade with the Thiersh capsule and the Soyuz FET were still in the race, even if they didn't take the gold, which all things considered, is amazing. But for me, the U67 was the golden ticket.
There's something about the size of the pickup pattern of the 67/87 capsule that hasn't been equaled yet. It's just huge, and yet, direct, and somehow manages to sound wide without veering toward an omni mode kind of sound.
Having used what is now a vintage U87 every day for a decade, I'll know where the WA87 stands when I hear it. I think a fair comparison would first be to the U87AI, and then to a vintage one. The point is, I'm hopeful. So far, I like what I've heard and for once, it seems to be at least close to what the original sounds like, instead of the typical Chinese capsule hype.
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Post by ericn on Jan 7, 2017 22:49:16 GMT -6
The question is when do we start begging Max for a 67 kit for the Warm?😜
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 8, 2017 6:25:15 GMT -6
I find the comparison conversation very interesting, but bottom line for me is, I just wanted a good 87 style mike for $600 and feel the wa87 completely delivers. I think the tonal difference that Ragan characterizes between the wa87 and the warbler, et el, is something I like. When I listened to all those clips in the summer, I thought they sounded fine but almost a little too vintage: really nice,but not exactly what I was looking for ? Anyway, fun (?) to have all these great (confusing options to choose from, while we all chase the holy 67/87 grail One thing about the bad Chinese caps/mikes, remember that their engineers originally went to the neumann factories to learn so did know how to build things properly to spec, but I think chose to reduce manufacturing costs and to skimp on QC/QA, which resulted in the inconsistent products. I know that is not what Bryce wanted and that he searched for a high quality chinese manufacturer. I don't really know but it seems to me that the last 4 WARM products, starting with the eqp-wa , are another step up in quality and user experience, its just my opening the box, twiddling the knobs and powering up first user impressions, but its very tangible for me ,as I have been buying warm stuff since the release of the tb12.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 8, 2017 12:59:14 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2017 13:04:21 GMT -6
Hipster ..... I liked the bloke ...... oops didn't finish here - found the differences on the male vox and acc guitar easier to pick up, but they sound really close. Considering the Peluso ( which also claims to be close) is almost 25% dearer over here, the Warm is a great price.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 17:34:20 GMT -6
I find the comparison conversation very interesting, but bottom line for me is, I just wanted a good 87 style mike for $600 and feel the wa87 completely delivers. I think the tonal difference that Ragan characterizes between the wa87 and the warbler, et el, is something I like. When I listened to all those clips in the summer, I thought they sounded fine but almost a little too vintage: really nice,but not exactly what I was looking for ? Anyway, fun (?) to have all these great (confusing options to choose from, while we all chase the holy 67/87 grail One thing about the bad Chinese caps/mikes, remember that their engineers originally went to the neumann factories to learn so did know how to build things properly to spec, but I think chose to reduce manufacturing costs and to skimp on QC/QA, which resulted in the inconsistent products. I know that is not what Bryce wanted and that he searched for a high quality chinese manufacturer. I don't really know but it seems to me that the last 4 WARM products, starting with the eqp-wa , are another step up in quality and user experience, its just my opening the box, twiddling the knobs and powering up first user impressions, but its very tangible for me ,as I have been buying warm stuff since the release of the tb12. CLIPS>! CLIPS!.. What is the WA87 based on? A vintage 87? I've rented an 87AI and currently comparing it to the Warbler MKID, I'm not sure if I've got the same version as ragan, there was a silver one and a slightly more expensive black one $480.00?? I went for the more expensive one. Anyway, I can't really tell that much difference besides a small build up in the LMF on the Warbler.. Notch it out and err? That WA87 doesn't sound like the Neumann I've currently got.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 10, 2017 18:04:17 GMT -6
Probably no Neumann sounds like the Neumann you have either I think on the Warm site they indicate they were modelling a vintage Neumann I know that is true for the cap. Anyway I am perfectly happy with the wa87 and am only trying to figure out how to get two more here for my upcoming drum session ")
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 18:10:52 GMT -6
Probably no Neumann sounds like the Neumann you have either I think on the Warm site they indicate they were modelling a vintage Neumann I know that is true for the cap. Anyway I am perfectly happy with the wa87 and am only trying to figure out how to get two more here for my upcoming drum session ") Well there must be some sort of irony in that, because as I said the Warbler comes pretty close. Look, I'm not trying to be a PITA, at this price that mic does seem like a no brainer.. But I am hesitating for some reason (probably from what I've heard) and with the 3U stuff I never gave it a second thought.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 10, 2017 19:26:54 GMT -6
I don't know why anyone would hesitate after hearing the male vocal comparison. I mean, how much closer could any two mics be? Yes, the Neumann has a little more low end and a pinch more transparency, but for $2,600 less, I'd say Warm hit the bullseye.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 10, 2017 19:46:02 GMT -6
@shadow, I honestly think you should just go with your gut and if you feel you prefer one mike over another buy the one you prefer: you are the one who is going to use it, not us But, I wouldn't make the decision based on clips: try to demo the mikes! I find it hard to believe you would really be disappointed with either
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Post by miscend on Jan 10, 2017 22:35:53 GMT -6
So, is the GZ67 similar enough to the WA87 so that you wouldn't need to audition them both? Seems like it'd be a waste of time and resource if they're super close. Both the same price and all. They are voiced pretty different, but they both share a detail and clarity that the Warblers (though great mics) don't quite have. The WA-87 is voiced very similar to the U87 (as is the MKID). So it has more mid push than the GZ67, which is voiced after the m269. GZ67 has more air up top and less of that 2-5k U87 thing. Can you have a look at the metal work on the capsule. That would give us a clue if it is indeed a 3U Audio capsule.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 23:52:46 GMT -6
I don't know why anyone would hesitate after hearing the male vocal comparison. I mean, how much closer could any two mics be? Yes, the Neumann has a little more low end and a pinch more transparency, but for $2,600 less, I'd say Warm hit the bullseye. I think the issue with that clip is he's too far away from the mic, not only is the room colouring it both mic's sound a little too weak. Yes they sound similar, but both of them don't sound quite right.. Not bad, but I couldn't get away with that recording in a dense mix. But yeah, I seem to be coming round to them more and more. Question is does the U87 sound really fit my voice? I've still to properly test out the 3U stuff in a mix for the most part I've been messing around. So we shall find out.!
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Post by jakeharris on Jan 11, 2017 0:46:22 GMT -6
I don't know why anyone would hesitate after hearing the male vocal comparison. It's not the only game in town
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