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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 22, 2013 11:47:24 GMT -6
OK, can you guys post some examples of some of these different mic techniques? Even a song by an artist you like, with some mic info would be cool. I'll have to bounce some stuff down, but i'll try to get some snippets up by the end of the weekend for you MJ |
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Post by svart on Nov 22, 2013 15:58:03 GMT -6
OK, can you guys post some examples of some of these different mic techniques? Even a song by an artist you like, with some mic info would be cool. I'll be finishing up some acoustic stuff next week. I'll be sure to post it. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 22, 2013 16:31:20 GMT -6
Cool, thanks guys.
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Post by Ward on Nov 23, 2013 11:57:44 GMT -6
Next acoustic project, I'll record some samples using various techniques mentioned and post the same for comparison.
MS, Blum, XY, AB, ORTF, shoulder and front
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 23, 2013 12:05:46 GMT -6
Yeah baby, looking forward to it,
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Post by Ward on Nov 23, 2013 12:16:09 GMT -6
We should take a moment and point out why NOT to make stereo recordings of acoustic instruments also. Especially if using MS technique. You always have to leave it in stereo, with the center mic up the middle and panning defeats the stereo image entirely. Even with Blumlein, when you try to rebalance to move the center of the acoustic instrument more to one side, you lost much of what you were after in the first place.
If you're recording more than one acoustic instrument in a project, say acoustic guitar, second or even third acoustic guitars like high string, capo'ed or 12-string, and adding mandolin and/or banjo and/or fiddle and/or dobro and/or accordion and/or mandola etc etc, stereo quickly gets in the way and starts limiting what you can do with the mix. It quickly becomes clutter that needs cleaning up.
Any stereo source is going to want to be in the middle (centered) and occupy a lot of sonic real estate. So bear this in mind!
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Post by btreim on Nov 25, 2013 15:14:12 GMT -6
I don't want to post this again, for fear of sounding like a broken record. But here's a recording I did a while back using one M/S pair. It was a B&O ribbon for the sides, and a vintage 87 for the Mid running through an old MCI straight to tape with no eq. If the song is a little more heavy handed, with more instrumentation, I tend to go with the 12th fret and bridge (or over right shoulder) combo. Even though it can be quite a bit different tonally, I feel like it gives great separation in a dense mix. For something like the song I just posted, having something more realistic and natural sounding was important, so I landed back on trusty old M/S even after days of trying to muster up something more unconventional. soundcloud.com/bentreimer/paper-thin-091013I should also mention, that the whole M/S apparatus was about 2 feet off from the performer, and hight adjusted to get a level that I liked between the vocal and acoustic. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 25, 2013 16:39:20 GMT -6
Ok, I surrender. I've been using one mic for guitar in projects that have lots of tracks, 2 acoustics, 2 or 3 electric, sometimes piano or organ, harmonium, vocals, backing vocals, etc.. It sounds good. I gotta say, if I was doing a singer-songwriter/solo thing like the track you posted Ben, I'd sure as hell rather it sounds something like that track, than my solo guitar mic style. Ugh.. now I gotta learn how to do that, and that means buying a few mics. I use the Blackspade U17, and will be using my little bit of currently extra cash to do the upgrade to the Thiersch capsule soon. I could buy two mics with the cost of that alone, but I think it's worth it, as I believe in having at least one high end mic you love and that works for most purposes. With a mic like that, which is based n the Neumann U47, but sounds a little like a C12, what do you think would be a good, but low cost direction to go when looking into another mic or mics for mid-side? So far, I like the Cascade Vin-Jet ribbon mic, ( around $400 with the Lundahl transformer), and the Gauge USA U87 knock-off. It's only $149, and has fooled my ears many times, and at one point, I used a U87 every day for a decade, so my memory of it is in my musical DNA. I almost forgot to mention,I have a friend who is a true audio engineer, degree, experience, great chops, a player and a producer. He was recording the NY Philharmonic at Lincoln Center this summer. He had a pair of original Neumann K-84's and the Gauge ECM-84 knock-offs. He compared them, and both he, his boss, and the conductor preferred the Guage mics. So, heaven knows why, but they're certainly worth the $184 with the case, shock mount and stereo bracket. www.gauge-usa.com/Gauge_Microphones/Products.html |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 25, 2013 17:00:51 GMT -6
We should take a moment and point out why NOT to make stereo recordings of acoustic instruments also. Especially if using MS technique. You always have to leave it in stereo, with the center mic up the middle and panning defeats the stereo image entirely. M/S is about options to me, I would say if your utilizing m/s, you are also recording a mono track, you could always ditch the sides.... also you actually can pan the center track right and left with the sides still there, although i never do that, i think it sounds phase funny, as anytime I mess with positioning inside stereo tracks. If i do record straight stereo, i pan hard left and right period, if i want the source to appear more right or left, i move the source in relation to the spaced stereo mic pair that i would use in such case. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 25, 2013 17:07:45 GMT -6
Ok, I surrender. I've been using one mic for guitar in projects that have lots of tracks, 2 acoustics, 2 or 3 electric, sometimes piano or organ, harmonium, vocals, backing vocals, etc.. It sounds good. I gotta say, if I was doing a singer-songwriter/solo thing like the track you posted Ben, I'd sure as hell rather it sounds something like that track, than my solo guitar mic style. Ugh.. now I gotta learn how to do that, and that means buying a few mics. I use the Blackspade U17, and will be using my little bit of currently extra cash to do the upgrade to the Thiersch capsule soon. I could buy two mics with the cost of that alone, but I think it's worth it, as I believe in having at least one high end mic you love and that works for most purposes. With a mic like that, which is based n the Neumann U47, but sounds a little like a C12, what do you think would be a good, but low cost direction to go when looking into another mic or mics for mid-side? So far, I like the Cascade Vin-Jet ribbon mic, ( around $400 with the Lundahl transformer), and the Gauge USA U87 knock-off. It's only $149, and has fooled my ears many times, and at one point, I used a U87 every day for a decade, so my memory of it is in my musical DNA. I almost forgot to mention,I have a friend who is a true audio engineer, degree, experience, great chops, a player and a producer. He was recording the NY Philharmonic at Lincoln Center this summer. He had a pair of original Neumann K-84's and the Gauge ECM-84 knock-offs. He compared them, and both he, his boss, and the conductor preferred the Guage mics. So, heaven knows why, but they're certainly worth the $184 with the case, shock mount and stereo bracket. www.gauge-usa.com/Gauge_Microphones/Products.htmlgood choice on the Thiersch, which one blue or redline? as far as the ribbon, what ever cheap mic you get, it's going to have an extraordinarily heavy micron ribbon in it, 6 micron even if it claims less, i would go with a joly or shinybox ribbon, they WILL sound great. If you're handy, you can mod one for about $100(total for mic and 1.8 ribbon) that would be awesome, just get an apex 205, and put a 1.8 micron ribbon in it. |
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 25, 2013 17:28:41 GMT -6
I'd record acoustic guitars in Mono for nigh-on most things. I've never considered the guitar a stereo sounding instrument.
Generally I try and use an Omni as it reduces the effects of the resonant hole on the front of an acoustic guitar. I'll use something like an EV635a if other instruments are going to accompany the guitar, as the low-end response isn't going to help. Otherwise I'd use a condenser mic, preferably something like a U87 but even an ECM8000 can do the job if you're stuck.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 25, 2013 22:09:07 GMT -6
I agree with you in general about guitars being mono jazznoise, but I thought the track Ben posted really gave the acoustic a vibe that brought out the songs meaning by being so moody. Since you like Omni, maybe I'll try a few of the other 9 settings available on my Blackspade, just to see.
Blue all the way with the Thiersch Tony. That's what Oliver Archut recommended as well as Mike from BSA Europe.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 25, 2013 22:40:39 GMT -6
I agree with you in general about guitars being mono jazznoise, but I thought the track Ben posted really gave the acoustic a vibe that brought out the songs meaning by being so moody. Since you like Omni, maybe I'll try a few of the other 9 settings available on my Blackspade, just to see. Blue all the way with the Thiersch Tony. That's what Oliver Archut recommended as well as Mike from BSA Europe. teaser alert... here's my MK47, DIY U47 clone with Theirsch M7 blueline, i love the reflection of my outside doors in the capsule, this thing sounds killer!    Edit; to stay OT, it sounds killer on acoustic 8) |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 26, 2013 0:38:03 GMT -6
Dang, that sure looks purty, any sound files? I'd love to hear it...
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Post by btreim on Nov 26, 2013 9:01:27 GMT -6
I agree with you in general about guitars being mono jazznoise, but I thought the track Ben posted really gave the acoustic a vibe that brought out the songs meaning by being so moody. Since you like Omni, maybe I'll try a few of the other 9 settings available on my Blackspade, just to see. Blue all the way with the Thiersch Tony. That's what Oliver Archut recommended as well as Mike from BSA Europe. Here's the thing with guitars being mono. Yes they are a mono source, but we hear them in stereo since there are two ears involved and reflections or ambiance in the room they are played in. Obviously mono acoustics have there place, and stereo micing won't work for every song arrangement. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 26, 2013 9:06:03 GMT -6
When I use a mono acoustic guitar and then add reverb, ( the UAD EMT-140, or sometimes the ReLab XL-480) I hear the reflections in stereo , so even if I have a guitar panned say... at "45" left, I hear some of it in the right speaker, that does seem to help with it feeling natural. This is an example, it was my first try with new mic, so the proximity effect is too heavy, but you'll get the idea of how I think it sounds full and natural, although mono. Let me know if the link works for you, and what you think: soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/naam-music-project-guru-ram |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 26, 2013 9:18:52 GMT -6
When I use a mono acoustic guitar and then add reverb, ( the UAD EMT-140, or sometimes the ReLab XL-480) I hear the reflections in stereo , so even if I have a guitar panned say... at "45" left, I hear some of it in the right speaker, that does seem to help with it feeling natural. This is an example, it was my first try with new mic, so the proximity effect is too heavy, but you'll get the idea of how I think it sounds full and natural, although mono. Let me know if the link works for you, and what you think: soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/naam-music-project-guru-ramof course it's always what ever is clever, but i've really gotten away from this idea, if you use a spaced pair, and adjust yourself right or left in relation to the pair, and then do the same with a mono track and add a plugin to create the stereo position, you'll see a large diff in realism IME. MJB, I'm trying to get a few things up from the M/S C12/ribbon and now the U47 clone, i've been really busy, i'm heading back there in 3 weeks! |
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Post by btreim on Nov 26, 2013 9:24:11 GMT -6
When I use a mono acoustic guitar and then add reverb, ( the UAD EMT-140, or sometimes the ReLab XL-480) I hear the reflections in stereo , so even if I have a guitar panned say... at "45" left, I hear some of it in the right speaker, that does seem to help with it feeling natural. Totally. When there is room in the mix, it's always nice to have a little air on the sides even if the source is localized mostly to one place. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 26, 2013 10:11:08 GMT -6
I like Paul O'Dette's room sound when he's playing lute in John Dowland's Elizabethan era music. There's a huge room sound, but the focus/location on the lute is crystal clear. The EMT-140 comes closest to that vibe. Were you guys able to reach the Soundcloud link? I'd like to know if it actually works, or if I have to post it differently.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 26, 2013 10:13:11 GMT -6
Would love to become more familiar and learn more about those mics and techniques Tony. OK, I'm going out now, I thinking I better get the turkey early, there's a huge rainstorm on the way, 3" of rain expected. That would be 3' if it was snow, yikes..
Tony, when you're in town, I might be able to borrow an original U47, just for kicks..
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 26, 2013 10:20:13 GMT -6
I like Paul O'Dette's room sound when he's playing lute in John Dowland's Elizabethan era music. There's a huge room sound, but the focus/location on the lute is crystal clear. The EMT-140 comes closest to that vibe. Were you guys able to reach the Soundcloud link? I'd like to know if it actually works, or if I have to post it differently. Just opened the song. Link is working. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 26, 2013 10:26:49 GMT -6
i've heard that before martin, sounds cool, like your guitar is 4' high x 8' long lol, huge!!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 26, 2013 11:15:06 GMT -6
Cool, thanks guys. I'm glad to know it works, sometime's Soundcloud and Dropbox are iffy. What's been much more difficult than getting a solo acoustic sound, is to get an acoustic guitar to sit nicely in a more traditional mix. This tune's a work in progress, not final mixed, one of my Nashville oriented tracks, I'll have real drums soon, etc, but despite some compression and processing, the acoustic still doesn't quite sit right in the mix. I'm realizing I have to play differently than I've been playing. I tend to hit hard, with a lot of dynamics, more like Keith Richard or Pete Townsend, when I need to be a bit more steady, like Dwight Yoakam or Tom Petty. I'll be getting an 1176/Urei style compressor in a few months, I'm hoping that'll help when tracking acoustic rhythm guitars. soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/what-the-heart-only-knows |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 26, 2013 11:22:23 GMT -6
Personally, I prefer an opto comp for acoustic over a fet. I feel like the tone on this acoustic is a bit cloudy. I would like to have a bit more top, little more open. What pre are you using here?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 26, 2013 11:38:27 GMT -6
Thanks jc, I really appreciate the feeback and input. I did that in the summer when I had just gotten the Warm Audio WA12. Signal was, Martin D-41 Turbo> Blackspade U17> WA12> UAD Apollo.
I may have strangled it in processing the mix, trying to get it to sit better. I'll try to improve it when I get to a final mix, thanks for lending an ear. I now have the Warm Audio ToneBeast, and it has more tonal options. One setting I use now is quite clean and transparent, just massaging the sound a little.
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