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Post by drbill on Jun 26, 2016 15:39:17 GMT -6
Synopsis: It's not ObamaCare's fault that medical coverage costs are so high. It's the hospitals' (because they're all private) fault because they "define their prices around a rich uninsured foreign person needing care". you should read the article tho. Agreed with that. There's no doubt we needed health care reform before Obama, but what we got wasn't what we needed. You're 1000% right about hospital costs. |
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Post by jakeharris on Jun 26, 2016 16:21:58 GMT -6
Maybe you didn't get what you needed, but how about the millions with 'pre-existing conditions'?
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Post by drbill on Jun 26, 2016 16:43:13 GMT -6
No one is arguing that pre-existing conditions need to be dealt with and health care reform was DRASTICALLY needed. But what we GOT was not what we WANTED/ NEEDED. BTW, I HAVE a pre-existing condition that cost me a bundle and precluded me from changing insurance companies in the previous paradigm, but I would still go back if I could. It's pretty simple actually. When you see the general populous mandated that they HAVE to do something, while politicians don't have to.....come on.....
Need we say any more?
Let's stick to the UK. The thread isn't about US health care, and really, it's not even about the EU. It's about the UK. I apologize for helping derail things by getting on health care. So....
What I'm seeing with Brexit is reminding me a lot of 4th grade elementary school when one of the best players on the team decided to leave and go home. All the other players started pointing fingers, coming up with excuses and playing the blame game while the one who left was just fine with things.... Inevitably the team (EU) suffered - not because the main player left, but because the team wasn't strong to being with and they weren't relying on themselves, but on the strength of others. The kid had every right to go home. But when left without the strong player the team felt they couldn't be competitive.
Think of this as a wakeup call and use it to strengthen your team (country/ EU) and make it stronger without relying on others to do that for you. It could be a win/win if positive attitudes are kept and people adapt. If you're in the country that "went home" and you don't dig it, then find a way to change things, or just deal with it.
Now....I may be completely wrong, but for those of us on the outside of the EU looking in, it sure looks a lot like this.....
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Post by swurveman on Jun 26, 2016 16:55:52 GMT -6
For you that are totally misinformed and ignorant about the US health system, the quality of healthcare in the US was the highest there was & NEVER, ever denied to anyone. Not one poor person was ever denied quality healthcare in the US. Now, as it becomes socialized, there is less access, quality has suffered and the costs are much higher! It is a disaster. And there are regulations in place now that, pending on age, one's treatment is relative to it. Apparently, you've never ear of 12 year old Deamonte Driver. Here's a policy article about what happened. Here's an article of the progress his state has made since his unnecessary death, due to him not getting health care after his mother searched in vain for weeks for a dentist who would see Deamonte and provide routine $80.00 tooth extraction that would have saved his life . Today, children's dental coverage is a required benefit included on all ACA compliant plans. |
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Post by jazznoise on Jun 26, 2016 17:07:00 GMT -6
Brexit is probably the most damning argument against direct democracy in the history of the Republic. And a warning that the Liberal idea will be the death of itself, visa vis pure populism. I don't know if it translates well across the Atlantic, but this is going to stagnate the UK economy and the resulting reduced trade will drag many of the EU's net borrowers like Ireland back into recessions, stemming another Euro liquidity crisis and another global recession.
failing that the UK, after bringing in fiscal controls to prevent wealth flight, may print money to deal with its own liquidity issues and may cause high inflation and unstable currency prices - equally big trouble for London and the world.
There was no good case for Brexit. There is no good case for isolationism as an economic means, and I say this as a socialist. Anyone anti globalist - Farage, Trump, Le Penne, is a delusional child with no grasp of economics.
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Post by drbill on Jun 26, 2016 17:23:52 GMT -6
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that you could make a REALLY good case that economics "experts" have no grasp of economics any more....
I'm hearing a lot of "might, if, maybe, could, possibly" and guessing in these discussions.... Where I come from we call that hedging your bet. Personally, I'll be betting on the UK - at least long term.
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Post by jakeharris on Jun 26, 2016 17:45:29 GMT -6
What I'm seeing with Brexit is reminding me a lot of 4th grade elementary school when one of the best players on the team decided to leave and go home. All the other players started pointing fingers, coming up with excuses and playing the blame game while the one who left was just fine with things.... Inevitably the team (EU) suffered - not because the main player left, but because the team wasn't strong to being with and they weren't relying on themselves, but on the strength of others. The kid had every right to go home. But when left without the strong player the team felt they couldn't be competitive. Think of this as a wakeup call and use it to strengthen your team (country/ EU) and make it stronger without relying on others to do that for you. It could be a win/win if positive attitudes are kept and people adapt. If you're in the country that "went home" and you don't dig it, then find a way to change things, or just deal with it. Now....I may be completely wrong, but for those of us on the outside of the EU looking in, it sure looks a lot like this..... Two problems with your analogy: a) the UK government didn't want to leave the team, they're now in a state of shock after the result, and they are in no way just fine with things, and b) the UK was nowhere near to being the main player on the team. |
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 26, 2016 18:09:07 GMT -6
Brexit is probably the most damning argument against direct democracy in the history of the Republic. And a warning that the Liberal idea will be the death of itself, visa vis pure populism. I don't know if it translates well across the Atlantic, but this is going to stagnate the UK economy and the resulting reduced trade will drag many of the EU's net borrowers like Ireland back into recessions, stemming another Euro liquidity crisis and another global recession. failing that the UK, after bringing in fiscal controls to prevent wealth flight, may print money to deal with its own liquidity issues and may cause high inflation and unstable currency prices - equally big trouble for London and the world. There was no good case for Brexit. There is no good case for isolationism as an economic means, and I say this as a socialist. Anyone anti globalist - Farage, Trump, Le Penne, is a delusional child with no grasp of economics. Time will tell if direct democracy is bad. I can see one good thing in the Brexit politics start to think if it was a wise idea to let take the power over by the markets. Humans don't follow the market, they want more than just being workers in a game of the Banks. They want a fair chance to reach their live goals. Globalization produced many underdogs in the western world. I am sick of living in a world where finance markets dictate what is to do in politics. Not the democracy has to follow the markets, the markets have to follow the democracy. A small but important difference. I think this vote was not against the EU, it was the slap in the face of all traditional parties in GB. They don't solve the problems off the EU citizens. The reason is they are sold to all kind off Lobbyists. We need a new culture here in Europe. People are sick of the same stupid arguments of the same or similar leaders - and there is no change over decades. Young people a sick of it too, and they are right.... |
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Post by swurveman on Jun 26, 2016 18:14:19 GMT -6
There are no waiting lists here, unless you are unfortunate to be a veteran using the VA system, another failed big government health care system. Did you know there is a emergency room overcrowding problem. So, perhaps the wealthy can see their cancer specialists without waiting, but rich or poor if you go to the Emergency Room at the wrong time you may die due to overcrowding. Secondly, nobody has mentioned that despite almost a trillion dollars in a hundred years of taxpayer subsidies to the pharmaceutical industry, our biggest sector of pharmaceutical cost and usage - Medicare- is prohibited by law to negotiate better prices. After subsidizing pharmaceutical companies to develop the drugs, why should we Americans also pay more than other counties to buy them? |
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 26, 2016 18:31:21 GMT -6
I'm not going to tell you that Germany's Health ins system is bad. I'm saying the US system is bad. A great percentage of the entire worlds pharmaceutical R&D is shouldered on the backs of the american people - cause that's where the companies reside. We can buy meds from Mexico or Canada for a tiny fraction of the price of what we are supposed to pay. Cancer shots regularly cost $3000 per shot. Rabies shots which can be had virtually for free in Africa were going to cost me $20,000 when I had a rabies scare a couple of years ago. The health care for a family of 4 who is not "subsidized" under the current Obamacare plan can run PER MONTH what you pay in a year - and that's for pretty crappy insurance, with high deductibles. (Mandatory BTW) How is that right? IME, the more the government gets involved, the more FVCKED up things become. Thats my experience. I live in the U S of A. And proud of it up until just a few years ago. At this point, the entire globe is spiraling down the toilet, but I'd still prefer living here than in Germany, China or the UK (NO offense). Even with the medical costs. There is no solidarity in government - only the illusion of it. The EU is as big a joke as the US Gov, China political parties, and the rest of them. The "powers that be" placate the people while they line their pockets, spending only enough on the common man to keep them satisfied, and quiet. Beyond that they could give a rats ass about us. Capitalists, Socialists, Communists, doesn't make much of a difference in the average Joe's life, although up until we started leaning more socialist in this country - while at the same time deregulating big corporations and giving them the same "benefits" as individual citizens - (go figure THAT on out?!?!?!?) our lifestyle was better than most. I got nothing to complain about other than the fact that current trends are taking MY country, and we're not being given options (like intelligent, legit, credible candidates) to take matters back into our own hands. It does not sounds much different from what happens here. Except the health care that works. Its a global thing. They follow the mantra of maximum profit and they don't care if a country gets ruined by them. Google it its exactly what big Banking did try in the the Euro-Crises in 2008. They had no scruple to ruin the Greek. And if that would have worked they would have go on with Italy etc. They wanted to ruin Europe in the name of maximum PROFIT. It has nothing to do with left or right or socialism ...or EU or USA... nothing. They act global from everywhere. It is simple unethical, its wrong, it ruins us all. I have no doubt that US/EU/China etc. bankers/traders give a shit about the people. As long as they make big money - everything is alright in their bubble. Average JOE is not existing for them. We live in an economic system which is out of control. The game needs new, better rules. Your country is well known for a change aka as "NEW DEAL"!!May Hillary Clinton is good for a NEW DEAL??? |
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Post by papag on Jun 26, 2016 18:49:59 GMT -6
Brexit is probably the most damning argument against direct democracy in the history of the Republic. And a warning that the Liberal idea will be the death of itself, visa vis pure populism. I don't know if it translates well across the Atlantic, but this is going to stagnate the UK economy and the resulting reduced trade will drag many of the EU's net borrowers like Ireland back into recessions, stemming another Euro liquidity crisis and another global recession. failing that the UK, after bringing in fiscal controls to prevent wealth flight, may print money to deal with its own liquidity issues and may cause high inflation and unstable currency prices - equally big trouble for London and the world. There was no good case for Brexit. There is no good case for isolationism as an economic means, and I say this as a socialist. Anyone anti globalist - Farage, Trump, Le Penne, is a delusional child with no grasp of economics. Quite agree. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 26, 2016 20:45:26 GMT -6
We need a new culture here in Europe. People are sick of the same stupid arguments of the same or similar leaders - and there is no change over decades. Young people a sick of it too, and they are right.... Sounds like the US. The more I read about this stuff, the more thankful I am for the health insurance plan subsidized by my employer. Also, this is literally the most pleasant political thread I've ever read on the Internet. Thank you all for being adults here. Very refreshing. |
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Post by jakeharris on Jun 26, 2016 21:15:17 GMT -6
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 26, 2016 21:21:15 GMT -6
I think we are not talking politics.
We are talking the results of it in our everyday lives.
Politic needs to ask who is the leader of the power?
Washington or Wallstreet.
Brüssel or London.
One result is that my savings for retirement melt away because of 0 or minus intrest.
Its not a sustainable economic system we the people need to ask for a true change.
Dont get me wrong the Brexit is a risk game for Europe.
But we now have the chance to for a change, politics for the people....very important....
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Post by drbill on Jun 26, 2016 21:46:25 GMT -6
I don't think the continuation of "status quo" will be an instigator for change -- either in the EU OR the US. Over here, IMO, eight years of Hillary would pretty much put the US into third world country status as corporate greed and political payoffs would abound - unchecked. Things need to radically change - as in the dissolution of the states in the US as we know them (i.e. civil war) or the collapse of the EU. Maybe the UK and the potential collapse of the European / Global economy and politics in the EU will instigate TRUE change for Europe - not just empty word slogans like Obama's call out for "change we can believe in" BS. Whatever happens, I wish you all the best of luck. We will need it. The collapse of the music biz will be a drop in the bucket compared to what's ahead if we don't get things back on track.
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Post by winetree on Jun 26, 2016 23:05:37 GMT -6
+1
I like the statement " Let the States decide"
The U.S. Federal Government has far over reached it intended purpose.
To protect our borders and provide a judicial system,
paid for by duties and tariffs, as purposed by our founding fathers.
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ctone
New Member
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Post by ctone on Jun 27, 2016 2:40:56 GMT -6
For a great historical perspective on the EU check out the video link.
It's several hours long but well worth watching to the end.
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 27, 2016 5:05:07 GMT -6
I don't think the continuation of "status quo" will be an instigator for change -- either in the EU OR the US. Over here, IMO, eight years of Hillary would pretty much put the US into third world country status as corporate greed and political payoffs would abound - unchecked. Things need to radically change - as in the dissolution of the states in the US as we know them (i.e. civil war) or the collapse of the EU. Maybe the UK and the potential collapse of the European / Global economy and politics in the EU will instigate TRUE change for Europe - not just empty word slogans like Obama's call out for "change we can believe in" BS. Whatever happens, I wish you all the best of luck. We will need it. The collapse of the music biz will be a drop in the bucket compared to what's ahead if we don't get things back on track. Lets hope that we do not need a civil war. My Grandpa told me stories by WW2 and I can say WAR is always, no matter whats the reason for it, a bad decision to solve a problem. I believe in the power of the people thats a part of my country. You wont need a war you just need millions of voters which are sick of it all. Like in the GDR in 1989 - I get goose-hair remembering the opening of the border. Its not funny anymore. People lost their homes in the US as well as in the EU. They do not find jobs anymore. As soon enough people, a critical mass, stops believing in the talk off their government things can change without a single bullet. Germans should not be proud of their history... but one thing is sure. I am proud of the peaceful revolution in 1989 in Germany. The whole country EAST AND WEST was in ANGST in DOUBT and suddenly the border was gone.... Wiedervereinigung...(Reunion of Germany)... Worth watching it... |
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Post by matt on Jun 27, 2016 8:32:04 GMT -6
Brexit is probably the most damning argument against direct democracy in the history of the Republic. There was no good case for Brexit. There is no good case for isolationism as an economic means Agreed. However, I see nothing better than the direct vote. Without it you have authoritarianism. BUT, as I said in my first post on this subject, what was missing on Brexit was an informed electorate. If the voting public can be swayed by the rhetoric of fear and an argument (Brexit) based on lies and distortion - propaganda, really - then the democratic system is doomed. With Brexit, the backlash to the vote, the "can we do this again?" mentality, makes it obvious: people didn't know what they were voting for, and the possible effect of their vote. And the effect has been immediate, bad for them, and bad for the world. Bad for me personally, too. I realize that both sides were accused of fear-mongering. Maybe true, but it seems that the Bremain folks were right about a few things, unfortunately. Isolationism has never worked as an instrument of policy. A country and it's people cannot turn away from the larger world without paying a steep price, or causing others to pay. History proves it. The truth is so simple: no man is an island. It's not exactly a new idea (thanks John Donne). The world is still there. The issues ares still there. Banks are still supporting the world economy. The so-called "Elites" still lead. Immigrants are still on the move and living in your local community, seeking a better life - like you. A referendum vote does not wash all this away. I find it odd, and sad, that people seem to think otherwise. No man is an Iland, intire of itselfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Manor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. |
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Post by jazznoise on Jun 27, 2016 16:01:44 GMT -6
I don't disagree with direct democracy, I'm just saying that if I did my case is pretty much built for me. The unwashed masses have voted to kill themselves and the rest of the planet for a flag, a fucking flag. I mean, look at the raw ignorance and anger it must take to fuel such a scenario: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/26/cornwall-fears-loss-of-funding-after-backing-brexitEngland needs to be given a do-over. It's economic defcon 1 and I'm basically dissapointed in everyone involved. Even the socialists called for a "Lexit", as if a Europe and Britain crippled by an economic crash could push further left. It's a grim fact that Syriza and others have proven change is impossible while global capitalism exists in a chaotic state - it's very hard to pin it down. Fomenting a stronger union, and forcing more fluid globalization wont get rid of the grey areas but it will make them smaller. It's our best chance for a better world as we stand. All us of the left can currently do is use opposition seats as a platform for change. |
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Post by keymod on Jun 27, 2016 18:47:51 GMT -6
If given enough time, democracy will always lead to anarchy.
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 27, 2016 19:01:14 GMT -6
If given enough time, democracy will always lead to anarchy. I disagree as long everyone respects each others opinion because he or she wants to learn from it. I did find this one by a typo. Some things are no news to us, but overall the neoliberal philosophy compressed - by the guardian - sounds little bit like what my Grandpa told me about the Nazi ideology. This philosophy is good if you are rich, it will make you even more rich. Have not read it all will do the rest tomorrow. We should read it without thinking about left or right wing. Its facts and shows that we live in a system which is different, but similar to those ones we criticized for many decades. www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jun 27, 2016 22:44:03 GMT -6
Plus, the many of the good/experienced doctors are quitting the profession. They can't make what they did 20 years ago. So why bother. We're left with doctors who I can barely understand (thick accents....) who can't spend more than 5-10 minutes with you, who see me as nothing more than another item to check off the "today's to-do" list. At least that's the feeling I get. I guess the quitters kind of have a Roger Daltry attitude. LOL My rant lol: My healthcare is supposed to subsidized by obamacare. Me being a 1099, self employed, under average means income. I had a recent surgery my femur snapped in half and after taking the appropriate procedures and getting things setup thru Obamacare it still netted me $120,000 in bills. Then they expect me to also pay almost $250 a month to continue my Obamacare. I'm Single white male middle aged non smoking male. Obamacare was suppose to cover me and my surgery for being "indigent, under income " and I still get debt letters every week and my credit affected. I can't afford obamacare and it's suppose to affordable, not to mention the 13,700 deductible and 20,000 max out of pocket payment. At this point, I will take the fine on my taxes for not having health care it will be cheaper thank he potential $3000 that Obamacare cost me. Oh, did I mention that all of my previous doctors did not accept the new Obamacare insurance resulting in me having to pay out pocket and/ or new patient fees at new doctors... this is after already paying $250 for insurance coverage please what coverage, seems like dead presidents ( $$$ ) is my insurance. |
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Post by drbill on Jun 28, 2016 0:10:25 GMT -6
Plus, the many of the good/experienced doctors are quitting the profession. They can't make what they did 20 years ago. So why bother. We're left with doctors who I can barely understand (thick accents....) who can't spend more than 5-10 minutes with you, who see me as nothing more than another item to check off the "today's to-do" list. At least that's the feeling I get. I guess the quitters kind of have a Roger Daltry attitude. LOL My rant lol: My healthcare is supposed to subsidized by obamacare. Me being a 1099, self employed, under average means income. I had a recent surgery my femur snapped in half and after taking the appropriate procedures and getting things setup thru Obamacare it still netted me $120,000 in bills. Then they expect me to also pay almost $250 a month to continue my Obamacare. I'm Single white male middle aged non smoking male. Obamacare was suppose to cover me and my surgery for being "indigent, under income " and I still get debt letters every week and my credit affected. I can't afford obamacare and it's suppose to affordable, not to mention the 13,700 deductible and 20,000 max out of pocket payment. At this point, I will take the fine on my taxes for not having health care it will be cheaper thank he potential $3000 that Obamacare cost me. Oh, did I mention that all of my previous doctors did not accept the new Obamacare insurance resulting in me having to pay out pocket and/ or new patient fees at new doctors... this is after already paying $250 for insurance coverage please what coverage, seems like dead presidents ( $$$ ) is my insurance. Sorry to hear than man, I'm going to send you a PM..... |
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Post by kilroyrock on Jun 28, 2016 6:26:13 GMT -6
BUT, Britain existed before the EU...and it seems that the EU needed Britain much more than Britain needed the EU. Here the opposite is true. Northern Ireland and Scotland need the EU more than they need England, marking the end of the United-Kingdom. Secession and reunification talks are pretty much guaranteed. London City will be the next to feel the hit, as banks relocate their staff to inside the EU (Frankfurt etc.) Small businesses in England and Wales will then move across these new borders to Scotland and Ireland in order to stay inside the EU, and that's the end of the 5th largest economy in the world. That they'd set all this in motion voluntarily is the insane part... The banks and the small businesses probably didn't vote to leave, that's a lot of unwanted costs. The people who don't know (or care) about how the world works are the majority, but this is also how the banks on the whole would like society. "You don't need to understand, you've got me to take care of things for you" doesn't work when it comes to voting.
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