Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 11:04:34 GMT -6
Bizarrest headline of today:
NOW the british google the consequences of Brexit.
They didn't nearly as much before the vote. So i guess many of them were not even half way informed about what they voted....
|
|
|
|
Post by jimwilliams on Jun 25, 2016 12:40:14 GMT -6
I repeat what I said above. It has nothing to do with economics and self-determination in the sense in which you describe. Apparently, the voters disagree with that opinion. Some of the reasoning was purely economic, but to dismiss self-determination is to suggest the Brit's were "too stupid to vote" and that they are all programmed by the right wing media there. Many on the left also supported this seperation. Are they also wrong? If it was not ecomomics nor self-determination, just what was it? |
|
|
|
Post by aremos on Jun 25, 2016 12:57:42 GMT -6
Lots of the fears, that are produced by right wing UKIP party, have to do with racism, anti-islamism and dumb nationalism. Fear for migrants/refugees. The UK could colonialize half of the world and now fears a few refugees? Absolutely having nothing to do with your reasons given. As Jim said, it has to do with SELF determination & preservation. I see European nations slowly going down with the quality of the lives of individuals as per healthcare, environmental impact fees, taxes, regulations on just about all aspects of life, porous borders and all controlled from several levels of bureaucracies - & on top of that a "watchtower" in Brussels? Hopefully people in the US are waking up to the fact that socialized medicine doesn't work and big government regulation on basic freedoms & rights go against human nature. |
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Jun 25, 2016 14:59:03 GMT -6
You just witnessed an Old Etonian grudge match played out on the world stage.
Personally I'm furious with the result. Depressed and shocked.
Who in their right mind runs a modern government using referendums.
It's like being on a plane and the pilot coming onto the intercom and telling the passengers,
"there's a problem with the plane should I press button A or button B, I could ask the head engineer sat next to me who has 30 years experience, but as you only let me fly the plane to start with on the basis I would turn to you for advice please make a decision and let me know .... but be quick!"
Meanwhile the pilot is climbing out the window with a giant safe expensive silk parachute.
Madness!
Sigh.
|
|
|
|
Post by jakeharris on Jun 25, 2016 15:09:23 GMT -6
Why are Americans so afraid of universal healthcare coverage, and why do so many of you insist on the poor dying just because they're poor? The best healthcare system in the world is French, and it's free. So how could you possibly qualify that as a failure?
Even the NHS with all its faults is still centuries more advanced than the US system, and again, it's free! Concept of proper healthcare is the one thing you can't fault Europeans for...
|
|
|
|
Post by jakeharris on Jun 25, 2016 15:21:32 GMT -6
Apparently, the voters disagree with that opinion. Some of the reasoning was purely economic, but to dismiss self-determination is to suggest the Brit's were "too stupid to vote" and that they are all programmed by the right wing media there. Many on the left also supported this seperation. Are they also wrong? If it was not ecomomics nor self-determination, just what was it? Unadulterated pure madness. How many English do you think actually realized their vote would lead to the dissolution of the United Kingdom? |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jun 25, 2016 15:28:06 GMT -6
Why are Americans so afraid of universal healthcare coverage, When it costs a bloody fortune, and when only the commoners have to use it - the elite politicians DON'T have to (or want to) use it. See a problem or double standard there? We need less government, not more. Doesn't look like madness from this side of the globe. I think the UK citizens chose what is best for them. Maybe not short term, but long term. At any rate, time will tell and if the pound continues in a more realistic curve, then I'll be buying another AML 2254.  |
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 25, 2016 15:38:38 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by jakeharris on Jun 25, 2016 15:51:46 GMT -6
That double standard has nothing to do with the pro's and cons of universal healthcare. My country forces me by law to have a health insurance, and similarly they force the insurance companies to pay me when I have bills. I've never been refused coverage, nor have I ever been told my treatments were experiemental. How does that compare to the US experience of spending your entire life paying off medical bills? Btw, the UK government isn't going anywhere. It staying exactly the same  ... The only thing changing will be additional restrictions on the movement of both people and goods into and out of the country = less freedom. And guess what, these additional controls and restrictions will be enforced by the government = larger government. So I'm not sure where the big/small government thing even comes in. |
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 25, 2016 15:52:01 GMT -6
Why are Americans so afraid of universal healthcare coverage, When it costs a bloody fortune, and when only the commoners have to use it - the elite politicians DON'T have to (or want to) use it. See a problem or double standard there? We need less government, not more. Doesn't look like madness from this side of the globe. I think the UK citizens chose what is best for them. Maybe not short term, but long term. At any rate, time will tell and if the pound continues in a more realistic curve, then I'll be buying another AML 2254. @drbil in the US it costs a bloody fortune. Thats because its organized by private insurances. I pay 150 Euro a month that is 1800 Euroa year and I have nearly full coverage for health care. At the age of 5 I was in need for deep health care that did cost the insurance about 300.000 DM that is 150.000 Euros. My dad just payed 900 DM per month and his whole family - 5 persons - where completely covered. That only works because its organized by the government. Its a system based on solidarity. Everbody pays his fee and the younger pay the older and so an. I cant see anything wrong with that. If I see the rates in the US for private self insurance I go crazy. Anyway I think there is a lot of misinformation in the US how the system in Germany or GB works. One thing is fact: I never had to pay ridicules fees to be covered and I suffer on Hemiplegia since I am born. I am 41 now I never paid anything extra for intensive care, operations... including live long physiotherapy etc. Now tell me again thats bad thing? No its not its a good thing if anything happens to me an awful accident or anything else like this. I am fully covered for 150 Euro a month. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jun 25, 2016 16:14:16 GMT -6
I'm not going to tell you that Germany's Health ins system is bad. I'm saying the US system is bad. A great percentage of the entire worlds pharmaceutical R&D is shouldered on the backs of the american people - cause that's where the companies reside. We can buy meds from Mexico or Canada for a tiny fraction of the price of what we are supposed to pay. Cancer shots regularly cost $3000 per shot. Rabies shots which can be had virtually for free in Africa were going to cost me $20,000 when I had a rabies scare a couple of years ago. The health care for a family of 4 who is not "subsidized" under the current Obamacare plan can run PER MONTH what you pay in a year - and that's for pretty crappy insurance, with high deductibles. (Mandatory BTW) How is that right? IME, the more the government gets involved, the more FVCKED up things become. Thats my experience. I live in the U S of A. And proud of it up until just a few years ago. At this point, the entire globe is spiraling down the toilet, but I'd still prefer living here than in Germany, China or the UK (NO offense). Even with the medical costs.
There is no solidarity in government - only the illusion of it. The EU is as big a joke as the US Gov, China political parties, and the rest of them. The "powers that be" placate the people while they line their pockets, spending only enough on the common man to keep them satisfied, and quiet. Beyond that they could give a rats ass about us. Capitalists, Socialists, Communists, doesn't make much of a difference in the average Joe's life, although up until we started leaning more socialist in this country - while at the same time deregulating big corporations and giving them the same "benefits" as individual citizens - (go figure THAT on out?!?!?!?) our lifestyle was better than most. I got nothing to complain about other than the fact that current trends are taking MY country, and we're not being given options (like intelligent, legit, credible candidates) to take matters back into our own hands.
|
|
|
|
Post by aremos on Jun 25, 2016 16:28:29 GMT -6
For you that are totally misinformed and ignorant about the US health system, the quality of healthcare in the US was the highest there was & NEVER, ever denied to anyone.
Not one poor person was ever denied quality healthcare in the US.
Now, as it becomes socialized, there is less access, quality has suffered and the costs are much higher! It is a disaster. And there are regulations in place now that, pending on age, one's treatment is relative to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jun 25, 2016 16:49:30 GMT -6
Plus, the many of the good/experienced doctors are quitting the profession. They can't make what they did 20 years ago. So why bother. We're left with doctors who I can barely understand (thick accents....) who can't spend more than 5-10 minutes with you, who see me as nothing more than another item to check off the "today's to-do" list. At least that's the feeling I get. I guess the quitters kind of have a Roger Daltry attitude. LOL
|
|
|
|
Post by matt on Jun 25, 2016 18:47:52 GMT -6
The people of the UK have spoken. Or have they?
Whether the typical voter that day was part of the underpinning of the democratic process known as "an informed electorate" remains to be seen. Based on mass reaction though, it appears that many did not really consider the consequences of a "leave" vote. Not the immediate, nor the long-term impact, which is unknowable. This is a terrible shame - that the UK might self-destruct by mistake. And possibly take the EU with it. This too, remains to be seen, and I hope that Brits and Europeans find a way to navigate the uncertain and likely dangerous path ahead.
People can cast a vote against the big banks, but the banks will still exist, perhaps elsewhere. They can vote against globalization, but can't stop it from happening - elsewhere. They can vote against immigration, but immigration keeps happening, in spite of all the votes. When a belief system fails to account for reality, catastrophe can ensue, and I'm afraid we are witnessing it here.
Funny thing about the future - it happens, whether you like it or not. Will Brexit bring a few years of austerity to the UK? Who knows, probably. Most likely. But how about a few generations (more) of suffering and disillusionment ? Or even a long, slow slide into the dustbin of history? It can happen to a nation and it's people regardless of what they do, but why court such a disaster? This whole thing seems terribly unnecessary.
Such a pity, all of it.
|
|
|
|
Post by papag on Jun 25, 2016 20:21:13 GMT -6
I repeat what I said above. It has nothing to do with economics and self-determination in the sense in which you describe. Apparently, the voters disagree with that opinion. Some of the reasoning was purely economic, but to dismiss self-determination is to suggest the Brit's were "too stupid to vote" and that they are all programmed by the right wing media there. Many on the left also supported this seperation. Are they also wrong? If it was not ecomomics nor self-determination, just what was it? Bigotry. |
|
|
|
Post by jakeharris on Jun 25, 2016 22:51:04 GMT -6
For you that are totally misinformed and ignorant about the US health system, the quality of healthcare in the US was the highest there was & NEVER, ever denied to anyone. Not one poor person was ever denied quality healthcare in the US. Now, as it becomes socialized, there is less access, quality has suffered and the costs are much higher! It is a disaster. And there are regulations in place now that, pending on age, one's treatment is relative to it. Misinformed and ignorant? www.cnbc.com/id/39646830time.com/2888403/u-s-health-care-ranked-worst-in-the-developed-world/ Spending 3 seconds on google, apparently 651'000 people were never ever denied coverage (that's just between 2007-2009), and before Obamacare took effect, healthcare in the US was so exceptional it was ranked the worst in the developed world... I just don't get why any American would want to go back to a system where their children could be denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions or whatever other excuses they'd use, and risk premature death or a severely debilitated life because they couldn't afford the healthcare or medication they needed... |
|
|
|
Post by aremos on Jun 26, 2016 9:00:25 GMT -6
You can search & try to find something that will aid your point of view - on just about any subject.
But:
1) it is so obvious you are not American
2) you've never visited or lived in the US
3) have no clue on what healthcare was & now is in the US
The quality of healthcare in the US was second to none. People from all over the world still come here for the quality of physicians & medical procedures.
And NONE of it ever denied to anyone. Anyone from anywhere in the world could be vacationing here & if were found in an unfortunate predicament would be taken care of no matter what their economic status.
The poorest of the poor have ALWAYS been able to walk into ANY hospital & given the same care, for as long as needed, as anyone with money would get!
As Bill pointed out, the disaster of ObamaCare's effects are now producing massive confusion, physicians by the drove retiring early, quality provided & access to specialized physicians now pending on type of plan dictated by the government,etc., etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimwilliams on Jun 26, 2016 10:42:56 GMT -6
According to some here the Brits are bigots, too stupid to vote and will be left of the side of the road to starve. I wonder what they think of you?
England has been around for 17 centuries, the EU for 23 years. I think they can figure out how to go it alone after 17 centuries of practice?
The main reason why the EU offers "free" public healthcare is they pay less than 3% of their GWP on defense. We pay about 30%, that covers us, Japan, Korea and the entire EU under NATO, which the USA funds to more than 90%. Your EU health care is subsidized by the USA because you don't have to pay to defend yourself.
Even so, wealthy Europeans always come to the USA for serious health problems, because we have the best health care in the world. Those Europeans pay full price here rather than take a chance of their publically financed health care system with attendent delays, quotas and waiting lists. There are no waiting lists here, unless you are unfortunate to be a veteran using the VA system, another failed big government health care system.
|
|
|
|
Post by jakeharris on Jun 26, 2016 10:49:13 GMT -6
Aremos, seemed obvious when I said 'you Americans', but nevermind...
Look, I'm perfectly happy for you to proclaim no-one was ever denied treatment because of lack of insurance, or no-one ever died because they couldn't afford their care. It's your country, believe what you like... I'll stick to my European universal healthcare model where I never have to worry about anything.
Neither will my kids, as no-one here, however twisted their political affiliations, is trying to repeal or privatize their well-being. Probably something to do with it being illegal for pharma companies to bribe our politicians - something you guys should look into.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 26, 2016 11:06:59 GMT -6
I did watch the news today its unbelievable what is happening in GB.
I feel sorry for our friends....
I hope they have a chance to join the EU again.
Had the feeling to play some guitar for them today....
|
|
|
|
Post by matt on Jun 26, 2016 13:15:15 GMT -6
I did watch the news today its unbelievable what is happening in GB. I feel sorry for our friends.... I hope they have a chance to join the EU again. Had the feeling to play some guitar for them today.... Beautiful! |
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 26, 2016 14:01:52 GMT -6
I did watch the news today its unbelievable what is happening in GB. I feel sorry for our friends.... I hope they have a chance to join the EU again. Had the feeling to play some guitar for them today.... Beautiful! Thanks Sir.... |
|
|
|
Post by NoFilterChuck on Jun 26, 2016 14:51:20 GMT -6
I'm not going to tell you that Germany's Health ins system is bad. I'm saying the US system is bad. A great percentage of the entire worlds pharmaceutical R&D is shouldered on the backs of the american people - cause that's where the companies reside. We can buy meds from Mexico or Canada for a tiny fraction of the price of what we are supposed to pay. Cancer shots regularly cost $3000 per shot. Rabies shots which can be had virtually for free in Africa were going to cost me $20,000 when I had a rabies scare a couple of years ago. The health care for a family of 4 who is not "subsidized" under the current Obamacare plan can run PER MONTH what you pay in a year - and that's for pretty crappy insurance, with high deductibles. (Mandatory BTW) How is that right? IME, the more the government gets involved, the more FVCKED up things become. Thats my experience. I live in the U S of A. And proud of it up until just a few years ago. At this point, the entire globe is spiraling down the toilet, but I'd still prefer living here than in Germany, China or the UK (NO offense). Even with the medical costs. There is no solidarity in government - only the illusion of it. The EU is as big a joke as the US Gov, China political parties, and the rest of them. The "powers that be" placate the people while they line their pockets, spending only enough on the common man to keep them satisfied, and quiet. Beyond that they could give a rats ass about us. Capitalists, Socialists, Communists, doesn't make much of a difference in the average Joe's life, although up until we started leaning more socialist in this country - while at the same time deregulating big corporations and giving them the same "benefits" as individual citizens - (go figure THAT on out?!?!?!?) our lifestyle was better than most. I got nothing to complain about other than the fact that current trends are taking MY country, and we're not being given options (like intelligent, legit, credible candidates) to take matters back into our own hands. drbill you should read this pdf before you comment on medical costs in the US further: realgearonline.com/thread/5135/greed |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jun 26, 2016 14:55:09 GMT -6
Can you give me a brief synopsis? I don't have time to read 42 pages right now. My comments on Health Care in the US are based on my own personal experience and opinion, and should not be taken as gospel fact. But they ARE how I preceive things to be. Since I'm not a health care professional, I'm sure there are TONS of things I'm not aware of.
Bottom line? Health care is much more expensive for me in 2016 than it was pre-Obamacare, and my coverage is significantly inferior. Cheers,
|
|
|
|
Post by NoFilterChuck on Jun 26, 2016 15:00:05 GMT -6
Synopsis: It's not ObamaCare's fault that medical coverage costs are so high. It's the hospitals' (because they're all private) fault because they "define their prices around a rich uninsured foreign person needing care". you should read the article tho.
|
|
... The only thing changing will be additional restrictions on the movement of both people and goods into and out of the country = less freedom. And guess what, these additional controls and restrictions will be enforced by the government = larger government. So I'm not sure where the big/small government thing even comes in.
