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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 5:12:09 GMT -6
I was recording my piano yesterday with two NT-5's positioned about how I normally have them (I didn't measure distances) and I got some pretty bad comb-filtering going on. This seems to happen every once in a while - I think I've found the magic placement, and then one day all of a sudden it's gone. I checked to make sure the mics were in phase, and than proceeded to move 'em around, I even played with an x-y configuration, which was just OK. To be fair, even when I get it sounding good, there's always some comb-filtering at some frequency - It's the nature of the beast, right? I seem to remember reading about a plug that let's you change the phase by degree - 180 always feels like hitting it with a sledge hammer. Anyway, a quick search and I found:
Radix Auto-Align
Waves: InPhase
Voxengo PHA-979
Any suggestions?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 18, 2016 7:11:11 GMT -6
UA has one and didn't eventide just release one ?
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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 7:49:46 GMT -6
UA has one and didn't eventide just release one ? I don't have the UA hardware thingy. Would I need that? |
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Post by swurveman on Jun 18, 2016 8:07:17 GMT -6
I use Waves InPhase. It captures both wave forms and shows you how out of phase they are. Then you move one to put them in phase. Works and sounds great. Demo it and see if it solves your problem. Good luck!
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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 8:16:31 GMT -6
UA has one and didn't eventide just release one ? The eventide plug is on sale right now through the end of the month for $29. Problem is, it's pretty basic and doesn't look like it's meant for stereo tracks. I suppose I could record L and R on separate tracks, then move one, but I can pretty much do that manually by just zooming in on the wave form. swurveman - Yeah, the Waves plug looks really nice - but it's quite expensive - I usually wait with Waves until their plugs go on sale. Do these plugs just move tracks/channels left and right? - or can they actually shift only an identified frequency range or harmonic series, etc? That would be wild - not to mention that it sounds like it might create it's own set of artifacts. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 18, 2016 8:39:35 GMT -6
UA has one and didn't eventide just release one ? I don't have the UA hardware thingy. Would I need that? yup you need some form of ua dsp to run ua plugs either an apollo or a satellite or one of its cards. |
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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 8:42:57 GMT -6
I don't have the UA hardware thingy. Would I need that? yup you need some form of ua dsp to run ua plugs either an apollo or a satellite or one of its cards. So just out of curiosity, what's the cheapest entry level product for this? I don't need inputs. I have an extra firewire port on my Focusrite 56 - is that how I would hook it up? Only one Firewire on the iMac - which is going to the Focusrite. |
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Post by swurveman on Jun 18, 2016 9:02:27 GMT -6
UA has one and didn't eventide just release one ? - Yeah, the Waves plug looks really nice - but it's quite expensive - I usually wait with Waves until their plugs go on sale. Do these plugs just move tracks/channels left and right? - or can they actually shift only an identified frequency range or harmonic series, etc? That would be wild - not to mention that it sounds like it might create it's own set of artifacts. Good question. From the manual: "To help you restore phase coherence, InPhase features high resolution dual waveform displays; phase shift filters with adjustable frequency and Q." I always just move the waveforms and you can hear everything sound clearer. Would you mind explaining to me what you're thinking/hearing when you talk about shifting only an identified frequency range? |
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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 9:25:05 GMT -6
Would you mind explaining to me what you're thinking/hearing when you talk about shifting only an identified frequency range? LOL - If I could do that, it might actually be possible. The more I think about it, the less sense it makes - unless we're willing to invoke Special Relativity - hah. OK, I'll give it a go.. I don't know how complex sound is stored as information in the analog world, but it just occurred to me that if there were individual 'waves' at specific frequencies, then they could be 'shifted' individually. Now, I don't think this is the case, because sound exists at every frequency (think white noise), so that would mean that it would be necessary to time-align a range of frequencies ..with what I can only think of as a Q, such that frequencies at the edges of the range are barely time aligned, and as you move closer to the center, they would be shifted more - so I picture a bell curve along the frequency/time axis - frequency dependent on Q and lopsided depending on which way and how much you're aligning. |
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Post by swurveman on Jun 18, 2016 9:28:22 GMT -6
Would you mind explaining to me what you're thinking/hearing when you talk about shifting only an identified frequency range? LOL - If I could do that, it might actually be possible. The more I think about it, the less sense it makes - unless we're willing to invoke Special Relativity - hah. OK, I'll give it a go.. I don't know how complex sound is stored as information in the analog world, but it just occurred to me that if there were individual 'waves' at specific frequencies, then they could be 'shifted' individually. Now, I don't think this is the case, because sound exists at every frequency (think white noise), so that would mean that it would be necessary to time-align a range of frequencies ..with what I can only think of as a Q, such that frequencies at the edges of the range are barely time aligned, and as you move closer to the center, they would be shifted more - so I picture a lop-sided bell curve on the frequency axis - dependent on Q and which way you're aligning. Thanks. I'll have to look at the frequency/Q controls in the InPhase and play around. Always interested in learning/exploring something new. |
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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 9:36:11 GMT -6
LOL - If I could do that, it might actually be possible. The more I think about it, the less sense it makes - unless we're willing to invoke Special Relativity - hah. OK, I'll give it a go.. I don't know how complex sound is stored as information in the analog world, but it just occurred to me that if there were individual 'waves' at specific frequencies, then they could be 'shifted' individually. Now, I don't think this is the case, because sound exists at every frequency (think white noise), so that would mean that it would be necessary to time-align a range of frequencies ..with what I can only think of as a Q, such that frequencies at the edges of the range are barely time aligned, and as you move closer to the center, they would be shifted more - so I picture a lop-sided bell curve on the frequency axis - dependent on Q and which way you're aligning. Thanks. I'll have to look at the frequency/Q controls in the InPhase and play around. Always interested in learning/exploring something new. I'm thinking the problem with the idea is that transients would get mushy, because you're smearing frequencies over time - That's where Special Relativity comes in  |
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Post by tasteliketape on Jun 18, 2016 10:32:33 GMT -6
I bought the Eventide because it was cheap but it's not stereo its a lot like the old pro tools plugin
I've demoed the SoundRadix and it frickin rocks
The SoundRadix plug was simple to use and did an excellent job
Maybe Randy (Range) could chime in his post turned me on to it
You really should demo it there free metering plugs are cool also
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 18, 2016 11:10:29 GMT -6
If you got a used FW satellite duo or quad or pcie-e card that gives you uad processing for mixing, not certain what they sell for: maybe 250-400 usd ?
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Post by popmann on Jun 18, 2016 11:11:22 GMT -6
Soundradix. The frequency dependent stuff (like IBP/Waves) will get you into trouble with a piano's wide range. Autoalign is only 180 full channel and time delay, but it seems to analyze more before settling on a the best compromise, which is what it always is....it does as well as I get by ear....by, you know--pushing the button to analyze. I will point out, once you get it where you like it--render that. I had issues during my demo of drum mics coming "unfixed"....I dunno if I did something wrong or if it lost some compsenation....but, point is--no reason to leave that fluid. Get it sounding solid and collapsing to mono well, render it.
But, IME, unlike drum mics, it's likely something in a frequency resonance range better corrected with EQ on the way in, even if you DO also shift one mic slightly in time.....pianos are a bitch.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 18, 2016 11:14:24 GMT -6
+1 for Auto Align
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Post by popmann on Jun 18, 2016 11:16:52 GMT -6
But, since you're recording now--I want to point out what might be obvious....you can use these tools to teach you what you can do better on the way in. If one mic needs to be delayed by X time and have it's polarity flipped--you can move the mic back a bit and flip the polarity on the preamp, or turn the Fig8 mic around....point is--they can be used as troubleshooting tools during tracking in a less than fast paced environment--like a home studio should be.
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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 11:16:55 GMT -6
If you got a used FW satellite duo or quad or pcie-e card that gives you uad processing for mixing, not certain what they sell for: maybe 250-400 usd ? I've got an iMac - so I'm going to assume that a card is not an option - I need external hardware, right? An Apollo duo is $900 and has gazintas and goesoutofs and stuff I don't need. The Satellite Quad Core is basically the entry level piece at $1000 as far as I can tell. |
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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 11:21:55 GMT -6
But, since you're recording now--I want to point out what might be obvious....you can use these tools to teach you what you can do better on the way in. If one mic needs to be delayed by X time and have it's polarity flipped--you can move the mic back a bit and flip the polarity on the preamp, or turn the Fig8 mic around....point is--they can be used as troubleshooting tools during tracking in a less than fast paced environment--like a home studio should be. Yeah, but what does "back a bit" mean? (I'm not trying to be a smart ass - It's more of a rhetorical question) - It's a piano - back from what? But you're right, I do have the luxury of being able to take my time - get it wrong - move a mic - get it wrong - spin a mic - get it wrong.. etc. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 18, 2016 11:45:59 GMT -6
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Post by popmann on Jun 18, 2016 12:21:40 GMT -6
Well, it's a foot per millisecond....true on a piano "away from what" is valid--the reason it's a moving target is because you're not likely doing an equal job across the whole range--so, away from where the main "lie*" of the part is....but, it's safe to say that if we call the mics R and L....and it(plug in like AutoAlign) needs to delay the L by .5ms and invert the polarity, you could start by moving it 6" away from either the board or away from the main lie of the part, depending I guess on whether you have them pointed at straight on the board or angled toward that middle/lie.
Also note that I've never heard a stereo CLOSE piano mic'ing that folds down near perfectly. I would LOVE to hear if people have references for that, but that why classical mic'ing is a XY pair away from the piano where it's projecting into the room....once you get all up in the thing, the best you can hope for is workable and not musically destructive in the phase relationship. But, ultimately, inches matter in a way that, at least for me is sort of trial and error seemingly every time.
*the lie of a part....being the range where the majority of the time is spent. Used mainly to talk about vocal lie--you want a tenor to hit high C as a big dramatic note? Fine, but you can't make the lie all above that G....the lie needs to be in the middle of tenor range.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 18, 2016 12:29:17 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 18, 2016 12:41:01 GMT -6
I have a Waves bundle with a gazillion plugs. I've tried some, and only use a few. Turns out I have the InPhase plug. I'll try it next time I'm working. I know little about phase,etc.so I'll have to read up on it to see what I can do about it at home, if I need to.
I'm convinced that better converters and possibly eventually getting a summing mixer will get me close to what I'd like it to sound like here, among other things, but now I wonder if phase alignment will help with the lack of transparency in some of my mixes.
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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 13:31:16 GMT -6
https%3A//soundcloud.com/m57/angled-micsSo I tried something different. On the third try, I got something that sounded decent. The mics are about 12" above and 12" apart but angled - aiming at the "O" on the logo. I hear phase on that chord that I play 3 or 4 times in a row at the beginning. It's not great but it's usable. I just have to be willing to spend a little extra time for each session. Really, I'd prefer better. 
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 18, 2016 13:43:07 GMT -6
nice playing! What brand of piano ?
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Post by popmann on Jun 18, 2016 13:49:35 GMT -6
I'm convinced that better converters and possibly eventually getting a summing mixer will get me close to what I'd like it to sound like here, among other things, but now I wonder if phase alignment will help with the lack of transparency in some of my mixes. What do you put multiple mics on? |
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