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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 18, 2016 14:18:33 GMT -6
Only acoustic guitar, thanks Popmann. I see, I thought it was used on the 2 bus.
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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 14:25:42 GMT -6
nice playing! What brand of piano ? Thanks - It's a Kawaii RX-2, which comes in at 5'10". My first real piano. I'm gonna say it's 18 years old 'cause I bought it new at the end of the last millennia. They started using ABS in the construction of certain parts - and I think that's a good thing. It handles changes in humidity and temperature well.
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Post by Randge on Jun 18, 2016 16:23:37 GMT -6
I would be using omni mics. That would alleviate most of the issues of phase and comb filtering in that instance.
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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 16:54:15 GMT -6
I would be using omni mics. That would alleviate most of the issues of phase and comb filtering in that instance. Thanks Range, I've auditioned a ton of stereo pairs on the piano - Pretty much all cardiod to be sure, but including KM-184s and Octava MK-12's. They were very nice but I'm pretty sure you're right - they would have the exact same comb-filter issues. Suggestions for omnis ..that won't break the bank? ..and while I'm thinking about it, why might omni's be better for handling comb-filter related problems?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 18, 2016 17:17:43 GMT -6
I would be using omni mics. That would alleviate most of the issues of phase and comb filtering in that instance. Thanks Range, I've auditioned a ton of stereo pairs on the piano - Pretty much all cardiod to be sure, but including KM-184s and Octava MK-12's. They were very nice but I'm pretty sure you're right - they would have the exact same comb-filter issues. Suggestions for omnis ..that won't break the bank? ..and while I'm thinking about it, why might omni's be better for handling comb-filter related problems? Omnis offer linear response off axis unlike any other pattern!
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 18, 2016 17:28:14 GMT -6
I still find an analog all pass filter like the little labs or the Radial phase Q to be the easiest to deal with!
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Post by M57 on Jun 18, 2016 17:47:34 GMT -6
I still find an analog all pass filter like the little labs or the Radial phase Q to be the easiest to deal with! Damn - this sucks - I want a 500 rack! With the Radial phase I'd only need one, right? Put it in the chain and get it right - or perhaps as an I/O plug - tweak and print. Is there a 19" rack version?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 18, 2016 17:55:20 GMT -6
I still find an analog all pass filter like the little labs or the Radial phase Q to be the easiest to deal with! Damn - this sucks - I want a 500 rack! With the Radial phase I'd only need one, right? Put it in the chain and get it right - or perhaps as an I/O plug - tweak and print. Is there a 19" rack version? Yep and there is a non 500 version ! In my the custom console of my dreams there is a 500 series module with Highpass low pass and all pass built around a 2520 op amp !
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Post by Randge on Jun 18, 2016 18:55:19 GMT -6
I would be using omni mics. That would alleviate most of the issues of phase and comb filtering in that instance. Thanks Range, I've auditioned a ton of stereo pairs on the piano - Pretty much all cardiod to be sure, but including KM-184s and Octava MK-12's. They were very nice but I'm pretty sure you're right - they would have the exact same comb-filter issues. Suggestions for omnis ..that won't break the bank? ..and while I'm thinking about it, why might omni's be better for handling comb-filter related problems? Call Pepper 's Pro Shop and tell him you need a pair of C5 Miktek's. Those mics are really great and they take eq and compression well.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 18, 2016 19:30:05 GMT -6
I had the same problem for years and had a difficult time figuring out how to fix what I was hearing with the exception of using a stereo mic outside of the piano, which worked but wasn't always the desired sound.
Now, like Randge was saying, I usually only use SD omni mics on the piano, and I also either open the lid all the way and lean it against a wall, or just pull the hinge pins and (gently) place the piano top off to the side while recording.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 18, 2016 22:48:19 GMT -6
...Earthworks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 23:11:46 GMT -6
Sound Radix Autoalign would probably fix it fine
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Post by M57 on Jun 19, 2016 4:15:15 GMT -6
...Earthworks. The mic choices and positions, not to mention the post-mic solutions are mind-bogglingly varied. We all know GAS always gets in the way of clear thinking, but after shooting out all those mics, I'm realize I'm not unhappy with the way the Rodes perform. More recently I've been thinking about just what I want the piano to sound like. If I'm rocking it a bit, I like how the NT-5's sit in the mix, but for more jazzy and folky/ballady stuff, I wonder that a pair of ribbons wouldn't be sublime. Heck, if all I was worried about was phase, I could get a pair of NT-55's. Hmmm.. is there such a thing as omni caps for NT-5's?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 19, 2016 5:03:36 GMT -6
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Post by M57 on Jun 19, 2016 7:17:31 GMT -6
They're the ONLY mics you've suggested that I haven't tried yet, probably because you didn't actually loan them to me . Of course, over those months I've been focused on the vocal chain. I'm assuming you're talking about the TC20s or 30's. New, they'd set me back $1000 and $1500 respectively. I'd have to save up for that. Meanwhile I could pick up a pair of Omni NT-5 capsules for under $200?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 19, 2016 11:09:12 GMT -6
They're the ONLY mics you've suggested that I haven't tried yet, probably because you didn't actually loan them to me . Of course, over those months I've been focused on the vocal chain. I'm assuming you're talking about the TC20s or 30's. New, they'd set me back $1000 and $1500 respectively. I'd have to save up for that. Meanwhile I could pick up a pair of Omni NT-5 capsules for under $200? Earthworks are right up in NH. Give them a call and see if they'll shoot you a demo set. I bet they would.
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Post by M57 on Jun 20, 2016 5:10:23 GMT -6
$180 for the capsules $170 for the Waves plug. Always chose hardware option over virtual, right? OTH, it doesn't look like the omni capsules for the NT-5s can be ordered as a matched pair. Is that a big deal?
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Post by Ward on Jun 20, 2016 7:08:37 GMT -6
I respect each one of you immensely, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I would remiss if I didn't point out a few small things, from my experience recording acoustic grand pianos: 1. The frame pieces of the piano can act like 'beam blockers' and cause minor phase variances and comb filtering to occur. Mic'ing too close to one of these could cause issues. 2. If you're leaving the top on the piano, cardioids or wide-cardioids might be a wiser choice than omnis 3. An omni doesn't care if the source is bouncing off the lid/top of the piano or from the strings. It treats all sources equally. How much reflected sound do you want? 4. Angling your SDCs towards a center point as opposed to using them as a coincident pair (straight down) can also cause phase issues.
In short, remove the cover and use omni's or try other mic'ing techniques with cardioids or wide cardioids.
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Post by M57 on Jun 20, 2016 8:18:02 GMT -6
I respect each one of you immensely, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I would remiss if I didn't point out a few small things, from my experience recording acoustic grand pianos: 1. The frame pieces of the piano can act like 'beam blockers' and cause minor phase variances and comb filtering to occur. Mic'ing too close to one of these could cause issues. Ward, Thanks so much for your advice. I've always wondered about the beams, and so it is that from pretty early on I've always gone out of my way to make sure there is no beam between where the mics hang and that seems to have made a difference, but keeping them at least 12" apart means that by definition they are very close to a beam. Not a lot I can do there - but it's good to know that it's a valid consideration.
2. If you're leaving the top on the piano, cardioids or wide-cardioids might be a wiser choice than omnis. 3. An omni doesn't care if the source is bouncing off the lid/top of the piano or from the strings. It treats all sources equally. How much reflected sound do you want? Good Question: It's not just reflected; If I go with omni's the room becomes more of the sound, right? It's a large room above a garage with an odd shape because there's some angled walls and a bathroom. It's got 8' ceilings and I'm gonna say close 400 ft2 of laminate flooring - so there's a good amount of 'space.' I've done no formal acoustic analysis, but it's all drywall, which I hate the sound of - so I've got traps in the corners and put a good amount of treatment on the walls and ceiling by the piano. Bottom line, the room doesn't sound bad, but that's mostly because I'm taking a lot of it out of the picture.
4. Angling your SDCs towards a center point as opposed to using them as a coincident pair (straight down) can also cause phase issues. I don't doubt this is true, but I for some reason in this particular case, I probably just got lucky - there seems to be less phase than in a lot of my coincident pair tries. Maybe it's more about where (frequencies) the phase is.
In short, remove the cover and use omni's or try other mic'ing techniques with cardioids or wide cardioids. It's not too expensive an experiment to buy the omni capsules and see, but I don't wanna take the cover off - It looks so nice on. You're just ruining the whole experience for me. Seriously, though - Thanks again for your thoughts. Lot's to think about and tinker with. BTW, I never get good results from XY and I've never tried MS - Should I consider trying MS? (I'd have to watch a few tutorials to figure out how to do it.)
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Post by Ward on Jun 20, 2016 8:28:53 GMT -6
M57, I LOATHE MS with a vicious passion. I think I have stated why a number of times here, and despite opinions to the contrary, I have yet to hear one yet that pulls me from my resolute belief that is is fake stereo at the best of times that collapses 3 feet from the speakers. The piano lid can be temporarily removed!! Just try it with the help of two friends. Many of us do it all the time and manage to complete the procedure without hurting the pianoforte. Finally the angling you are doing with your SDCs is actually almost XY stereo! Somewhere between that and backwards ORTF.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 20, 2016 9:01:57 GMT -6
Ya know, I'm changing my tune. Try to get your hands on this full piano system. www.earthworksaudio.com/support/downloads/audio/piano/The piano is your main instrument (along with your voice anyway), so treat it that way. Spend the money and do it right, then forget about needing to fix things. Get your hands on to some paying tracks that need remote piano and the mics will pay for themselves.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 20, 2016 9:10:42 GMT -6
Ya know, I'm changing my tune. Try to get your hands on this full piano system. www.earthworksaudio.com/support/downloads/audio/piano/The piano is your main instrument (along with your voice anyway), so treat it that way. Spend the money and do it right, then forget about needing to fix things. Get your hands on to some paying tracks that need remote piano and the mics will pay for themselves. I bet you might even be able to convince someone from EW to drive down to your place with a few different mics and give you a true demo.
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Post by joseph on Jun 20, 2016 9:16:58 GMT -6
Yeah I agree that if piano is your main instrument, get the nicest mics you can afford. And audition a few patterns. Omni may or may not work in your room.
And start with a standard stereo miking pattern, like DIN for example.
Schoeps are an industry standard, low noise, and have a very flattering tone, with interchangeable capsules. They also make MK22 open cardioid, flat smooth response for close/spot miking, wider than cardioid but not omni. Fantastic.
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Post by M57 on Jun 20, 2016 9:18:57 GMT -6
M57 , I LOATHE MS with a vicious passion. I think I have stated why a number of times here, and despite opinions to the contrary, I have yet to hear one yet that pulls me from my resolute belief that is is fake stereo at the best of times that collapses 3 feet from the speakers. The piano lid can be temporarily removed!! Just try it with the help of two friends. Many of us do it all the time and manage to complete the procedure without hurting the pianoforte. Finally the angling you are doing with your SDCs is actually almost XY stereo! Somewhere between that and backwards ORTF. LOL - Thanks for talking me out of trying MS. Looks like you don't have to unscrew anything - the top just slides off of the pins? Really, this singer/songwriter is pretty happy with what he's got in his home studio. Maybe the next time I have someone like Jesse over, I'll try out some of these more exotic and time consuming approaches, but for now it's time to get down and just start recording. I've made some major additions to it on the hardware end in the last year or so - time to actually be productive.
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