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Post by watchtower on Dec 4, 2013 8:09:00 GMT -6
Thanks for the comments guys
Actually, the first clip is the C12, and the one labelled B is the U47. Listen to the mids around 3kHz, and the highs around 11kHz. Those two areas are where you will hear the difference. As expected, the C12 sounds a little scooped compared to the 47.
The U47 is not the MK47, but is the Tab Funkenwerk kit with a Telefunken EF800 tube and BeesNeez K7 capsule. I did not hear a difference in the high end between wav and mp3, but I will post wav later.
Also, I did notice a resonance on the C12 basket, but only when you tap on it. I do no hear it at all during normal usage. I also tried a 2-layer Blackspade headbasket, and it has the same "ping" resonance when you tap it. Maybe I'm listening for the wrong thing? My U47 does not make a "ping," but it's a much larger diameter mic/headbasket.
Btw, my acoustic is a Martin DRS-2, and it is indeed a booming beast.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 4, 2013 11:22:16 GMT -6
Thanks for the comments guys Actually, the first clip is the C12, and the one labelled B is the U47. Listen to the mids around 3kHz, and the highs around 11kHz. Those two areas are where you will hear the difference. As expected, the C12 sounds a little scooped compared to the 47. The U47 is not the MK47, but is the Tab Funkenwerk kit with a Telefunken EF800 tube and BeesNeez K7 capsule. I did not hear a difference in the high end between wav and mp3, but I will post wav later. Also, I did notice a resonance on the C12 basket, but only when you tap on it. I do no hear it at all during normal usage. I also tried a 2-layer Blackspade headbasket, and it has the same "ping" resonance when you tap it. Maybe I'm listening for the wrong thing? My U47 does not make a "ping," but it's a much larger diameter mic/headbasket. Btw, my acoustic is a Martin DRS-2, and it is indeed a booming beast. Hmmmm... My 47 vs C12 are strikingly different beasts, and the natural eq curves work really well together, I would suggest that there should be a significant difference between the character of your 2 mics. The k7 in the U47 clone..?.. i'm not sure about. I have a K7, and a blueline Thiersch, i've tried them both, as well as a beeznees M7 all in my 47 clone, you should try the blueline in ur 47, to my ears the Thiersch was a runaway winner. I put the K7 in another schoeps FET mic, it also sounds really good, but not U47 like, the BN M7 was sent out to mic rehab to be rebuilt as it had major flaws in it as brand new, i also have a nice sounding BN K6, and i'll leave it at that. In the short term, i would put new strings on your acoustic, that should really show the extended top end of the C12. Also, i personally(am a total pain in my ass lol) despise mp3's, they remove audio info to achieve their compression...especially in the densely populated high frequency region where the C12 shines. I'm such an audio snob that i generally wont even listen to mp3's, they're way too boomy and sparkle free to my ears. my first reaction to your samples was to look at what kind of files they were triggered by the lack of top, i had to listen a couple times as they seemed really close to each other, i was thinking the opposite originally, then changed my mind lol, they're close. I'd like to hear some new wave files if it's not too much of a bother, maybe with some new strings on that gee tar, my bet it'll fall a new, and right as rain... oh, and btw, friends don't let friends burn MP3's 8) here's one of my pre install capsule pics  |
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Post by watchtower on Dec 4, 2013 11:57:56 GMT -6
Hi Tony,
With all due respect, based on all my research on these mics, while the C12 and U47 are definitely different sounding mics, I wouldn't call them strikingly different in sound. Of course, one man's striking difference is another man's "almost the same." I guess my point is I found the sound comparison of my mics to be completely within in the realm of what I would expect for the real deal. Plus, the overall frequency responses of the mics match the published vintage frequency responses pretty well. The U47 has more mids, while the C12 has a slight dip in the mids with a boost in the air. The U47 and C12 are both hi-fi mics - I really don't believe they should sound massively different. I would even expect a C800G or Manley Ref Card to sound more different to a U47 than a C12 would, despite the different capsule anatomy (center-terminated versus edge).
Regarding the K7 - I've heard nothing but good things about this capsule. I'd love to try the Thiersch, but until I build a U47 FET or an M49, I really have no reason to switch this K7 capsule out because I would have no where to put it. Why do you think it is unfit? What differences did you find between the K7 and Thiersch in your MK47?
Regardless, I will post some wave files for you. Perhaps my Martin just has less treble than you are used to? These mics really sound quite accurate to how the guitar sounds in real life.
And what's the deal with the headbasket? Am I listening for more than a ping when I tap on the grill?
P.S. Just for kicks I re-loaded up a session I downloaded from Telefunken many months ago where they have sound samples of their C12 and their U47 (and other mics) on an acoustic. Sure enough, the differences between the mics mirror the difference in my clips. C12 is a slight dip in the mics with some air on top in comparison. Different for sure, but nothing insanely drastic. Just a little tonal emphasis change.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 4, 2013 12:20:02 GMT -6
Like i would hope everyone here would do, I'm just being honest in my assessment in order to be helpful, hope it didn't come off as insulting or offensive, that was far from my intent. It's all about what makes you happy, the c12 and 47 ime, have always been great contrasting mics, like singer songwriter acoustic guitar recording, 47 on vox, c12 on guitar, they make great space for one another, when i think C12, i think bottom, and great hi frequency extension, when i think of 47's, it's about mid push and smolder..
as far as the Thiersch vs K7, the M7 has a smoother carmely kinda thing, with much better focus, that fits the idea of an original U47 to me, i know a lot of guys like the K7, i was fortunate enough to be able to compare a few capsules, my C12 and U47 clones are strikingly different from one another(on my rig)in the middle and on the top as you'd expect, the top on my C12 goes waaay up there, tons of air.
this is all subjective, and you mics sound great, i bet some day old strings will show a bigger diff between ur 2 mics, how old are the strings on your guitar?
looking forward to those other samples
and as always, best wishes for your success 8)
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Post by watchtower on Dec 4, 2013 13:19:13 GMT -6
I absolutely appreciate the honesty, and I'm definitely not offended. I just felt like I should respond because initially, I too was slightly surprised how close my two mics sounded considering the comments I've read online regarding the differences over the years. I was expecting the C12 to be brighter than it is, but I am very happy that it is just a smooth airyness instead. Regardless, I then remembered that I've basically confirmed my U47 is "in the ballpark" and I have indeed heard multiple clips online comparing the C12 and U47, and I never found them to be extremely different - just different shades of the same basic "color." There's a few other factors I recalled (like frequency response charts, general theory, and some important posts), but basically I realized I think both mics are very much in the ballpark, despite my initial surprise. Most people I've talked to prefer the C12 on my acoustic in that clip, but think both sound great.
How much are those Thiersch Blue Lines? Like I said, I'd really love to try one. I hate that I had to make my own mount for the K7 to work in the AMI body. I have the capsule at the proper height, but if I tap the mic at the right angle, the capsule holder WILL shift the slightest bit, causing a thud in the sound.
The strings on my Martin are not especially new, but they're also not that used. Mic placement and proximity effect would also have a large effect on the treble.
I'll send the wav files tonight.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 4, 2013 14:27:56 GMT -6
I think the Theirsch is about $350 or so, they are beautifully made, i'll try to get up an acoustic sample between my 47/C12 in the next couple days if i can, i leave to go back east for a month in a couple weeks...so, i'll try to get it up before i go, cant promise though...
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Post by watchtower on Dec 4, 2013 14:49:11 GMT -6
That would be great
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Post by Guitar on Dec 4, 2013 18:54:04 GMT -6
I think the bass threw me off. Your "C12" has a much bigger bass than mine, the Tim Campbell graph shows a 100 Hz bump, where the Peluso graph is flat there.
Also the Peluso CEK-12 has more 2 to 4 kHz than the Campbell, that makes it more U47-y, more forward in the midrange.
That's my excuse anyway!!! haha. Thanks for clearing that up. I was so sure of myself last night. I think I can hear it now, yeah it's subtle!
Tony is right--125 kbps is a pretty brutal MP3 in terms of darkness.
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Post by watchtower on Dec 4, 2013 19:37:20 GMT -6
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Post by Guitar on Dec 4, 2013 20:20:27 GMT -6
It sounds slightly less muddled to me as a .wav
I listened to tons of 128 kbps MP3s back in the early 2000s, it's a familiar sound, and not an awful one, just softens things a little
I think it's interesting how much subtlety is involved in sound work and critical listening.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 4, 2013 22:38:00 GMT -6
sounds good, i feel i hear more now, but that also could be a mind trick considering the hotter signal? i think listening to blinds on the net is a hard place to pick up the nuances of gear, mostly from a source/room perspective, it's not your own space and axes, it's when you own/live with pieces for a bit, when you start to digest and understand their character.
that being said, you got a couple sweet mics there.
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Post by watchtower on Dec 5, 2013 9:49:22 GMT -6
Thanks! I think I'm going to grab a Telefunken EF802 to try in my U47. Eventually I'll get a Thiersch in there, too
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Post by brianscheffer on Jan 1, 2014 22:27:03 GMT -6
Have you guys found Tim Campbell to be a good communicator? I sent him an email to order two CT12s and haven't heard anything back for weeks...
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Post by watchtower on Jan 2, 2014 11:49:07 GMT -6
Have you guys found Tim Campbell to be a good communicator? I sent him an email to order two CT12s and haven't heard anything back for weeks... Yes, sometimes Tim doesn't reply, or takes a long time to reply. I'm not sure what to advise. He's probably still catching up on the 2013 capsule surge haha By the way, I tried the EF802 in my U47 and it sounds identical to the EF800 other than a subtle volume change. |
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Post by brianscheffer on Jan 2, 2014 12:35:29 GMT -6
Thanks for the input. I bet he did see an increase in interest with the Studio 939 kit coming out... I hope to hear from him. I'd rather give him my money now before I go and spend it on something else!
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Post by watchtower on Jan 2, 2014 12:57:04 GMT -6
Well even if/when you get on the list, you wont pay until the capsule is ready. I don't know what sort of timeframe Tim has right now, but my wait was over 5 months between getting on the list and paying.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 2, 2014 20:13:25 GMT -6
must sit on $400, to be ready at a moment's notice, in a span of months: I may never get my hands on one of these
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 2, 2014 21:09:19 GMT -6
If you declare definitively that you want one in ur email, he puts u on the list, when he's done building ur piece, he'll notify you to pay, he's not going to exchange much email
This is how it worked for my pair
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Post by watchtower on Jan 2, 2014 22:38:31 GMT -6
He has explicitly said that you are not on the list if he hasn't replied to your email saying you're on the list. Did you get on the list without him telling you?
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 7, 2014 23:40:07 GMT -6
He has explicitly said that you are not on the list if he hasn't replied to your email saying you're on the list. Did you get on the list without him telling you? I think he replied to my initial email yes, but definitely not to subsequent emails. So my last post was NOT entirely accurate, sorry |
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Post by watchtower on Jan 17, 2014 9:51:42 GMT -6
I wish it was easier to grab those capsules. After hearing my mic, my buddy wants to build the exact same one, but he hasn't been able to get on the CT12 waitlist yet. Plus, I want to build a 251E, and I need Tim's capsule!
I have a Russian PIO cap on the way to try out in the coupling cap position. Eager to hear how it will influence the tone. Also, considering replacing all the resistors with carbon comp, but probably wont. After some tests last night, I found the C12 to be about 3dB quieter noise-wise than my U47. Also emailed Oliver to see if he makes a T14/1 (different from a T14), but haven't heard back.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 17, 2014 18:21:04 GMT -6
I wish it was easier to grab those capsules. After hearing my mic, my buddy wants to build the exact same one, but he hasn't been able to get on the CT12 waitlist yet. Plus, I want to build a 251E, and I need Tim's capsule! I have a Russian PIO cap on the way to try out in the coupling cap position. Eager to hear how it will influence the tone. Also, considering replacing all the resistors with carbon comp, but probably wont. After some tests last night, I found the C12 to be about 3dB quieter noise-wise than my U47. Also emailed Oliver to see if he makes a T14/1 (different from a T14), but haven't heard back. What Elam kit? |
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Post by watchtower on Jan 18, 2014 1:01:42 GMT -6
I wish it was easier to grab those capsules. After hearing my mic, my buddy wants to build the exact same one, but he hasn't been able to get on the CT12 waitlist yet. Plus, I want to build a 251E, and I need Tim's capsule! I have a Russian PIO cap on the way to try out in the coupling cap position. Eager to hear how it will influence the tone. Also, considering replacing all the resistors with carbon comp, but probably wont. After some tests last night, I found the C12 to be about 3dB quieter noise-wise than my U47. Also emailed Oliver to see if he makes a T14/1 (different from a T14), but haven't heard back. What Elam kit? None as of yet. I want JessJackson on GroupDiY to finish that PCB he made with the three relays for pattern switching. If he did that, that's the one I'd build. You could make a decent 251E with the Matador/Chunger PCB, but the pattern switching would be a little bit different. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 18, 2014 8:37:52 GMT -6
None as of yet. I want JessJackson on GroupDiY to finish that PCB he made with the three relays for pattern switching. If he did that, that's the one I'd build. You could make a decent 251E with the Matador/Chunger PCB, but the pattern switching would be a little bit different. That's the one I've been waiting for also... |
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Post by watchtower on Jan 24, 2014 14:04:29 GMT -6
There's going to be some news pretty soon regarding the 251...
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