Let's talk about The Grid (Pro Tools, not power)

Pro tools? elastic audio has fixed many a wandering drummer. if they're really bad, i'll have him play until his timing gets nuts, have him pick up halfway through and go again. extra beat or two wander is okay with me, we can find out why, usually it evens out. I then start with putting 1 of every 4 snares on the mark and see where they line up between phrases. usually it's okay.

OR you can tab to transient and manually do it. Doesn't take forever, maybe half an ELO lp to do a kick or snare for a song.

beat detective isn't bad, I just found other ways to do it that let me see what's going on, instead of trusting things to be right, and then going back to adjust over and over. it's how you say.. YMMV

Kick, snare and some Tom spots. Always. If the drummer can't keep time well enough we go for off the floor which I'm never a fan of.

Never. Ever. If they can't play something that can reasonably be edited, they don't deserve to be heard, or they deserve to pay the price for being heard as they are 'au naturel'. There are too many capable players out there to humor this problem. I can edit the crap out of any reasonably shaped turd without resorting to calling in the 'bots. But then, that's just my world. I know this isn't helpful if you really want to chop up parts in a blender to make homogenized 1% milk product, it's simply reactionary. I don't really believe in click tracks either, I've dealt with too many great drummers who don't need it, so ignore! If we feed the 'bots, we simply empower their takeover. : )

Here's the issue I have with this , and pardon me if I'm mistaken. Once you fix the drums isn't the bass off- assuming you track the drummer and bass player at the same time? If so, do you then have to fix the bass part as well?

Personally, I wish there was a Engineers Union where there was a stipulation that if a band isn't tight, then they have to go back and practice until they are. We're not gonna artificially make your timing better. One can dream....

Being a one man show... most of the time... two man, last album.

Someone or something has to be the time keeper.

You have to decide early on, who or what that is.

If you have a great drummer then sure, you don't need to "fix" the timing of the drum.... I don't run around with any "Great Drummers". Plenty who think they are 8)

I am the drummer during most of the production process of my songs, then I might keep my part, or get a guy who I do like, to replace the part... he can read, so I write out a basic drum chart for him, so he can sight read the
groove, so immediately what he does aligns groove wise with what I have already built the song around.. he is essentially playing against a finished song, and use his ability to play with finesse that I just don't have.

So I work like this.

I grid the drums, right from the start. But..... I might not grid 100%. I might grid 80%, 95%, 75%, I might build a quantisation map from something else and use it to put against the drums "I" just played.

After that, Everything is referenced against those drums. The timing doesn't change.. the feel is done. Most of the other instruments I play, bass, guitar, keys, percussion etc don't get quantised, perhaps the bass gets nudged here and there, not guitar parts though, and I might edit backing vocals.

I find that by making an entity time keeper early on, that it works out best here in overdub land.

That, and making full passes at the other instruments in groups of 3. (If I aint hit it in 3 tries, I am trying again tomorrow.. 8) )

GOLDEN TIP

there is a "pocket" for kick and snare.. it exists about 10ms around perfect. Keep that in mind when editing.

cheers

Wiz

Here's the thread with the examples. I don't think the original performances are bad, there are just a couple spots that are a little off. No major issues, it's just that pro sounding rock records are all locked to the grid these days and I'm trying to give the band as pro a sound as I can.

realgearonline.com/thread/5384/rock-tracking-drum-quantizing

I really don't think this is true.  I can think of plenty of modern rock records with 'pro sound' being made by tight great bands without click tracks or grids.  Success?  Unrelated matter.   If it really gives you an edge, it's one thing, but it could just be a placebo.  

All kinds of people I know making rock records. All over the country.  I guess you could get into the definition of 'rock record'.

I sat in on a session this past Tuesday with Sarah Tomek on drums. The track was a ballad for a fairly heavy rock artist. She played to a click but they specifically discussed not touching the drums afterwards. They got maybe 5 takes but only for different patterns here and there and different fills. The feel was so damn good that moving anything would be a fucking crime. She was laying back behind the beat ever so slightly. The kit sounded so damn slamming that no sample augmentation will be needed. How it should be if you ask me.

This is exactly correct. People, and most local and regional bands don't understand how much of a jump there is when you are dealing with top players. For some reason musicians never really see reality as clearly as athletes. 

I love throwing up a drumtrack from Nir Z for some young drummer in the studio and watching the look come over his face when he "finally hears" the difference between his playing and someone truly gifted who has been playing "professionally" for 20+ years. And costs me less to use than some dude who thinks he's killing it and wants more money than he's worth.

Same problem with booking local and regional bands. They have no idea how much bands with several charting albums get paid as support on a tour. The trick is trying to make a living from both groups - the pros, and the prosumers. Because today you need to deal with everybody to make ends meet.

No you didn't misunderstand the question. It just devolved into either record pro drummers or GTFO.

I'm working with a local band, made up of decent players, but not pro session players. I can't bring in a session drummer, nor would I want to for something like this. The tracks are decent, but sway in and out in spots. I was trying to figure out if beat detective was my best bet or if there were better options these days. It seems like BD or manual cutting are still the best things going.

I even linked to a thread with a locked track vs. unlocked. I think in the end, my best bet is going to be to just do some manual tweaks here and there where it's noticibaly off to clean it up and not have to retake all the guitars.

Although, with OH and Room, that would be the best option.