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Post by longscale on Apr 1, 2016 12:47:15 GMT -6
I'm not sure why there are not more offerings in SDCs. Perhaps because the LDCs are sexier and can command higher prices? That and perhaps the fact that 84s are not all that expensive and still can be had?
With Oliver's sad passing I'm not sure what ever happened to the Lucas CS-3 project. I was hoping to get my hands on one or two as I've been very impressed with the Lucas CS1 and CS4.
Echoing what others have mentioned I too was stunned when I put my 184's up next to a friends Oktava MK012s. I preferred the Oktava's by more than a little. I know it is fashionable to bash 184s, but I've never enjoyed mine at all. Way to harsh and spitty on acoustic guitars for me (which is what I wanted them for). I really wanted to like them, but could never make them work for me.
I do a bunch of singer/songwriter stuff of my own and I prefer a tube LDC on acoustic myself. Most of the time I favor my CS1. I mostly record my old Gibson's and I can't stand my 184s on them. The quality of my LDCs far exceed the quality of any of my SDCs however so that might be part of the bias here. I've not tried that many SDCs personally. I need to get my hands on a good 84. The 84s in good shape do seem to be harder to come by lately. I wish I had taken the time to find one instead of buying the 184s (long ago).
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Post by rowmat on Apr 1, 2016 12:57:13 GMT -6
My studio partner who is the producer/musician part of our team (I engineer and do all the tech) without any prompting whatsoever described KM184's as sounding 'brittle' to his ears. I think that is an accurate description.
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Post by drbill on Apr 1, 2016 13:02:01 GMT -6
No one willing to comment on the intercuts on that guitar track I posted earlier between KM84 and MJE102's??? It wasn't a trick. Just the result of having both mics up in the same position with the same pre, and thinking that I must have bussed something wrong, but after triple checking, I didn't. On that day, that guitar, etc., the 102 and KM84 were closer sounding than 2 of my KM84's were.....
There's lots of new SDC's out there. Sennheiser is making a bunch of great stuff, DPA, etc.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 1, 2016 13:34:27 GMT -6
The 184 is pretty notorious for RFI problems.
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Post by sozocaps on Apr 1, 2016 13:36:45 GMT -6
No one willing to comment on the intercuts on that guitar track I posted earlier between KM84 and MJE102's??? It wasn't a trick. Just the result of having both mics up in the same position with the same pre, and thinking that I must have bussed something wrong, but after triple checking, I didn't. On that day, that guitar, etc., the 102 and KM84 were closer sounding than 2 of my KM84's were..... There's lots of new SDC's out there. Sennheiser is making a bunch of great stuff, DPA, etc. Oh I have listened to that a while ago and was impressed. One has more bloom looser bottom. I was not sure what the final verdict on the mic was and I have a u47 mod from him that I am not to sure about.... so have not pulled the trigger on a pair yet.
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Post by sozocaps on Apr 1, 2016 13:42:49 GMT -6
On the Nylon guitar I actually prefer the 184.... Its the steel string that I irk from the 184.
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Post by drbill on Apr 1, 2016 15:03:42 GMT -6
On the Nylon guitar I actually prefer the 184.... Its the steel string that I irk from the 184. I can see that...
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Post by wiz on Apr 1, 2016 15:54:29 GMT -6
Bob Olhssoncan you talk a little bit about how you go about using the 84 on vocals.. regards positioning, mic sock.. pop screen etc cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Apr 1, 2016 15:56:43 GMT -6
No one willing to comment on the intercuts on that guitar track I posted earlier between KM84 and MJE102's??? It wasn't a trick. Just the result of having both mics up in the same position with the same pre, and thinking that I must have bussed something wrong, but after triple checking, I didn't. On that day, that guitar, etc., the 102 and KM84 were closer sounding than 2 of my KM84's were..... There's lots of new SDC's out there. Sennheiser is making a bunch of great stuff, DPA, etc. I will comment.. 8) I remember doing that test when it first came out. If what you are saying is.. you can take a KM84 and replace it with Jolys mic... any time .. anywere... well... I am gonna shrug my shoulders... If you are saying you/me/we can't tell em apart in that test... you are right. Apart from that.. cheers Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Apr 1, 2016 16:05:58 GMT -6
In the past I have done some brief tests using the KM84 for vocals and always thought it sound pretty excellent for a SDC. Caveats apply concerning pop/wind screening. Even a standard pop filter will probably be inadequate at typical distances 6-8 inches. However backing off to 10-12" and cranking up the preamp a notch yields good results. We have a several cheapish pop filters and also a Blast Pad purchased a couple of years ago. The Blast Pad is undoubtably the most effective and also the most insanely expensive especially now. Glad we bought it as a demo model when the Aussie dollar was stronger. www.petesplaceaudio.com/filter.html
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Post by svart on Apr 1, 2016 16:15:18 GMT -6
The 184 is pretty notorious for RFI problems. They had two versions.. The first one had RF problems supposedly. They made a second version with special shielding. I have one of each and I don't have RF problems with the unshielded one, even around cell phones and things.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 1, 2016 16:24:59 GMT -6
We had ONLY 30 KM86s at Motown for a number of years until I bought some other mikes because I wanted to learn how to use them since no other studios but EMI and RCA had that many. I remember reading somewhere that almost everything recorded at Motown was recorded using KM86's including many vocals. Oh yeah this is where I read about it! (Scroll down to the bottom post) repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=3822.0
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Apr 1, 2016 16:36:12 GMT -6
I use a pair of Joly 12's. Good mics.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 1, 2016 16:56:45 GMT -6
No one willing to comment on the intercuts on that guitar track I posted earlier between KM84 and MJE102's??? It wasn't a trick. Just the result of having both mics up in the same position with the same pre, and thinking that I must have bussed something wrong, but after triple checking, I didn't. On that day, that guitar, etc., the 102 and KM84 were closer sounding than 2 of my KM84's were..... There's lots of new SDC's out there. Sennheiser is making a bunch of great stuff, DPA, etc. They sounded very similar...I just listened on laptop...and I THOUGHT I heard a little difference in the top end occasionally, but that could have been any number of things. I'll listen on my monitors and see if I can guess where the changes are. But yes - they sound amazingly similar.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 1, 2016 16:59:29 GMT -6
I was told by a distro for Miktek that a ton of guys were selling off their 84's and buying C5's. I like the AKG c28 style myself. There are a ton of companies that make a cheaper version like the Avantone C28. That's a tube SDC with a slightly bigger capsule. You can get one for about $400 and have shannon reskin and tune it and it would be a beast. The Peluso P28's are killer too. They C5's are def pretty decent...but don't handle the mids nearly as nicely as a KM84. I liked the C5s better than any of the other offerings I tried in that price range.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 1, 2016 17:31:13 GMT -6
I have a pair of K-84's here on loan for a week or two. I tried a half dozen SDC's, none came close to the 84. But recently, I had the Soyuz 0-11 SDC's. They were the only mic I've ever heard to equal the 84, they were different, but absolutely equal, perhaps even better. They're $1,100 each.
So, I think the reason the LDC's get more attention is obvious. The LDC is the main vocal mic, and that's what people need to get handled first. You can get quite a good acoustic guitar sound with a Bock 195 or a U-87, but counter to Bob's experience, I tried singing through the 84, just to see, and there's no way I'd use it as a vocal mic. So, I think because the primary need for a great vocal mic comes before a great acoustic instrument mic, the SDC's get less attention.
They say size doesn't matter, but it could be subliminally "inferior" too, if you get my drift ;-)
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Post by drbill on Apr 1, 2016 17:51:48 GMT -6
No one willing to comment on the intercuts on that guitar track I posted earlier between KM84 and MJE102's??? It wasn't a trick. Just the result of having both mics up in the same position with the same pre, and thinking that I must have bussed something wrong, but after triple checking, I didn't. On that day, that guitar, etc., the 102 and KM84 were closer sounding than 2 of my KM84's were..... There's lots of new SDC's out there. Sennheiser is making a bunch of great stuff, DPA, etc. I will comment.. 8) I remember doing that test when it first came out. If what you are saying is.. you can take a KM84 and replace it with Jolys mic... any time .. anywere... well... I am gonna shrug my shoulders... If you are saying you/me/we can't tell em apart in that test... you are right. Apart from that.. cheers Wiz I've said virtually the same. In that test they are indistinguishable, but they are not ALWAYS identical. But for someone looking for a good SDC who can't find a good vintage 84, or for someone with an eighth of the budget, it's a good alternative. Sometimes I like them better than 84's.
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Post by drbill on Apr 1, 2016 17:54:09 GMT -6
No one willing to comment on the intercuts on that guitar track I posted earlier between KM84 and MJE102's??? It wasn't a trick. Just the result of having both mics up in the same position with the same pre, and thinking that I must have bussed something wrong, but after triple checking, I didn't. On that day, that guitar, etc., the 102 and KM84 were closer sounding than 2 of my KM84's were..... There's lots of new SDC's out there. Sennheiser is making a bunch of great stuff, DPA, etc. They sounded very similar...I just listened on laptop...and I THOUGHT I heard a little difference in the top end occasionally, but that could have been any number of things. I'll listen on my monitors and see if I can guess where the changes are. But yes - they sound amazingly similar. You're right on John. There is a bit of a difference in the top end "zing" on a note here or there. I can consistently hear about 2-3 of the cuts, but the rest are transparent to me. There's also some "sub" LF waaaay down there on the 012's, but with the source material (ac gtr) you really can barely tell. Out in front of an orchestra, it's an easier differentiation. You'll hear the LF extension....
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Post by rowmat on Apr 1, 2016 17:58:44 GMT -6
"... I tried singing through the 84, just to see, and there's no way I'd use it as a vocal mic..." There is a vocal version of the KM84 called the KMS84i
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 1, 2016 18:52:43 GMT -6
I'd love to hear that
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Post by rowmat on Apr 1, 2016 19:38:35 GMT -6
A friend bought it for me about 25 years ago. He found it in a pawn shop in a box mixed up with a bunch of old cheap mics like the mics that came with portable cassette recorders. It cost me the grand sum of $25 US!
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Post by popmann on Apr 1, 2016 20:13:52 GMT -6
At least I feel like SOMEONE listened to my constant dull rant.... ...Sm7 vocal....Sm81 acoustic....
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Post by rowmat on Apr 1, 2016 20:35:06 GMT -6
Okay as we're in SDC land. Neumann KM54
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 1, 2016 20:58:16 GMT -6
An 84 makes a great vocal mike as long as you don't eat it, use an SM81 shock mount and a foam windscreen.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 1, 2016 21:15:06 GMT -6
KMS84i? Hmm.. very interesting. I wonder how it sounds when compared to the 84?
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