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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 31, 2016 14:30:01 GMT -6
Shannon put a new cap in a Miktek C5 for me...but by the time you pay for the mic and the mod, you could have bought a KM84.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 31, 2016 14:33:13 GMT -6
I think the price is the real issue, like Johnkenn said. I'm super interested in the Telefunken Ela-m 260's, but a pair is much more expensive than a pair of used 84's. It's hard to compete when the consensus favorite is only ~$1k each. |
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Post by rowmat on Mar 31, 2016 14:51:33 GMT -6
I had this discussion last night with my studio partner. He asked me if KM84's are so loved and sought after why doesn't Neumann (Sennheiser) just start making them again? In the past 18 months I bought 3 near mint KM84's. Actually they were KM85's but I have since purchased KK84 capsules. In SDC's I now currently own 2x Oktava MK012's, 2x Josephson C42's, 4x AKG 451's, 2x Neumann KM184's, 1x AKG C60 (tube), 1x KMS84i, 3x KM84's, 1x KM54 (tube) I have also tried various Rode SDC's and a variety of Chinese SDC's over the years. If I had to choose just one SDC from all the above it would be the KM84. The KM54 can sound stellar on certain instruments such as mandolin, banjo, 12 string guitar etc but IMO the KM84 is a more versatile all round SDC. I knew how good the KM84's were as I had owned the KMS84i (vocal version) for 25 years and had been trying to find another SDC that had the KM84 sound without spending a fortune. About 18 months ago I realised the only mic that sounded like a KM84 was.... a KM84. It has taken me over a year to find three KM's in great condition. You are correct that many KM84's look like they have been to hell and back but they still seem to sell for between $800 to $1200 USD regardless and I have seen very clean examples even exceeding $1500 in some instances. I found the best way to get clean KM84's was to buy KM85's and fit KK84's capsules. Generally KK85's tend to be in better average condition than KM84's (less use?) and can usually be found a few hundred dollars cheaper. I ended up finding a boxed pair of excellent KM85's for around $1350 USD and then bought a pair of brand new KK84's capsules for around $1,400 USD. They get used on nearly every session!  So, in a nutshell, I guess I'm saying if you really want a KM84 you'll have to buy a KM84!  |
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Post by sozocaps on Mar 31, 2016 15:08:07 GMT -6
I have a permanent pair of KM184's as my overheads and they sound great!!!!! there with the preamp I am using. I did not love them on acoustic guitar but as overheads they are amazing.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 31, 2016 15:35:55 GMT -6
I think there has been some discussion from Shannon about creating a cardioid KM84 capsule replacement. |
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Post by wiz on Mar 31, 2016 15:58:57 GMT -6
I have a permanent pair of KM184's as my overheads and they sound great!!!!! there with the preamp I am using. I did not love them on acoustic guitar but as overheads they are amazing. I too have KM184s as permanent OHead mics... like rowmat I chased my tail flailing money out of my wallet until I got a good KM84. Its just ... right. cheers Wiz |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 31, 2016 16:01:14 GMT -6
FWIW as far as I know the KM84 case is available as a service part so physical appearance is meaningless.
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Post by sozocaps on Mar 31, 2016 16:09:39 GMT -6
I have a permanent pair of KM184's as my overheads and they sound great!!!!! there with the preamp I am using. I did not love them on acoustic guitar but as overheads they are amazing. I too have KM184s as permanent OHead mics... like rowmat I chased my tail flailing money out of my wallet until I got a good KM84. Its just ... right. cheers Wiz Yea totally agree. I would love to have a pair of real KM84's and looking for something to fill that gap. I am a guitarist and I am SUPER BAT SHI! picky about the mic on the guitar. The way I would describe it is the real 84 on the acoustic puts the strings just behind the bright body of the guitar not in front like the KM184. But on OH the 184 is just great ! |
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Post by rowmat on Mar 31, 2016 16:09:43 GMT -6
FWIW as far as I know the KM84 case is available as a service part so physical appearance is meaningless. I not certain this is 100% correct but according to the spare parts person at Sennheiser, Australia the only part still available for the KM84 is the KK84 capsule assembly. |
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Post by drbill on Mar 31, 2016 21:09:30 GMT -6
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Post by popmann on Mar 31, 2016 21:50:25 GMT -6
I've long recommended singer/songwriters start their collection with an LDD+SDC. Dynamics and SDCs are simply cheaper to produce to sound good. Even where a super cheap SDC lacks accuracy, it doesn't sound BAD in it's inaccuracy, if anything, Octavas and Rodes and such tend to flatter with a little mid scoop "hifi" niceness.
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Post by rowmat on Mar 31, 2016 21:55:01 GMT -6
I actually prefer my unmodified Oktava MK012's to my KM184's as they sound closer to my KM84's. I have a pair of Bill Sitler's MK012 modification kits which I'm yet to install. |
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Post by drbill on Mar 31, 2016 22:28:46 GMT -6
I have a pair of Bill Sitler's MK012 modification kits which I'm yet to install. Doesn't surprise me. They are good mics. |
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Post by svart on Apr 1, 2016 7:05:37 GMT -6
I always thought the MK012 was still much darker and more mushy sounding than the KM84, even when modified with the mods that Joly "borrowed" from GroupDIY.
I find the KM184 has the general sound of the KM series, but tighter low end and brighter top end which I like because I never have to boost it anymore.
Whatever happened to that huuuuge thread over at GS where everyone blind picked the KM184 over the KM84 and then deleted their posts and changed their minds when it was revealed they had actually picked the KM184 as the better sounding mic believing it was the KM84?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 1, 2016 8:16:28 GMT -6
The thing is SDC's just aren't sexy, and in the world of acustic recording even the KM84 was considered a workhorse. Everybody made a useable SDC. Other Than the KM84 and M50, there really aren't any unobtainable SDCs ( okay the tube Nueman and AKG's but everybody wants an 84).
In the world of MTV and later YouTube most SDC's all look pretty much like the same metal tube so they must all sound the same, right?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 1, 2016 9:13:43 GMT -6
KM86s cost just as much as U87s. The problem was they were small enough that they were easy to steal. For the most part label-owned studios used them while Indy studios went for U87s. My experience has been that few LDCs sound as good as an 84/86 and none really sound better other than the benefit of giving a singer more confidence and fewer excuses.
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Post by joseph on Apr 1, 2016 9:49:47 GMT -6
I think one reason why is the customers for SDCs are more demanding from a technical point of view, and there's less you can get away with with marketing hype and still compete with tried and true standards. Like claiming that your unspecified but most likely Asian made capsule sounds like a CK12. And every "producer" wants a cheap alternative to U87.
People who buy SDCs are often doing dialogue in films with MK 41 or Sennheiser MKH, live music tapers, classical engineers, those who want predictable capture, low noise and off axis response. Or people who know what a KM84, e22s, MK2 or Gefell/Josephson omnis i.e. great SDCs sound like, and how AT or Shure or Oktava or whatever are a compromise.
e22s is pretty popular standard these days for loud or precarious sources like toms, snare, and amps. So there is room for innovation in specific applications.
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Post by drbill on Apr 1, 2016 10:04:13 GMT -6
I always thought the MK012 was still much darker and more mushy sounding than the KM84, even when modified with the mods that Joly "borrowed" from GroupDIY. Maybe you had a crappy one? Either way you should be able to hear the intercuts on the clip above right? Not even the guitarist or I (and I cut them) could accurately hear the intercuts, but I can tell you that the MJE-012 has a little more extension on the bottom, and on some notes a little more lift way up high.... Also, they seem to be a bit more spotty (inconsistent) than the German mics. |
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Post by Randge on Apr 1, 2016 10:23:45 GMT -6
I always thought the MK012 was still much darker and more mushy sounding than the KM84, even when modified with the mods that Joly "borrowed" from GroupDIY. I find the KM184 has the general sound of the KM series, but tighter low end and brighter top end which I like because I never have to boost it anymore. Whatever happened to that huuuuge thread over at GS where everyone blind picked the KM184 over the KM84 and then deleted their posts and changed their minds when it was revealed they had actually picked the KM184 as the better sounding mic believing it was the KM84? My OO-12's are shrilly as can be and so were the KM-184's that I had. I did a pretty intense day of mic testing with 6 different mics, vintage and new, before I decided on buying my P-28 Peluso's. I haven't every really liked anything else in their line, but those mics are fantastic. Someday I'll have Shannon put some new capsules in the OO-12's. |
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Post by svart on Apr 1, 2016 10:53:34 GMT -6
I always thought the MK012 was still much darker and more mushy sounding than the KM84, even when modified with the mods that Joly "borrowed" from GroupDIY. Maybe you had a crappy one? Either way you should be able to hear the intercuts on the clip above right? Not even the guitarist or I (and I cut them) could accurately hear the intercuts, but I can tell you that the MJE-012 has a little more extension on the bottom, and on some notes a little more lift way up high.... Also, they seem to be a bit more spotty (inconsistent) than the German mics. I had 3 of them, two original russian imports and one chinese one. They sounded relatively similar, although the parts they used were loose tolerance, so each mic sounded a bit different from each other. I'm not knocking them, they are good mics, just different in tone, and I always found myself boosting the highs. A lot of my studio work has been acoustic singer/songwriter stuff and the fad with them is vintage guitars, gibsons and such.. They are such dark sounding guitars, that the HF of the KM184 gets them sounding a little more exciting without resorting to doing any top end EQ. Horses for courses I suppose. |
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Post by jeromemason on Apr 1, 2016 11:45:53 GMT -6
I was told by a distro for Miktek that a ton of guys were selling off their 84's and buying C5's. I like the AKG c28 style myself. There are a ton of companies that make a cheaper version like the Avantone C28. That's a tube SDC with a slightly bigger capsule. You can get one for about $400 and have shannon reskin and tune it and it would be a beast. The Peluso P28's are killer too.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 1, 2016 12:04:10 GMT -6
KM86s cost just as much as U87s. The problem was they were small enough that they were easy to steal. For the most part label-owned studios used them while Indy studios went for U87s. My experience has been that few LDCs sound as good as an 84/86 and none really sound better other than the benefit of giving a singer more confidence and fewer excuses. I've been looking for a couple of KM86's for some time. I like the KM84 on snare and wanted to see how much hi-hat bleed I could keep out of the snare channel by using a KM86 in figure 8 mode although avoiding the cymbals above may prove difficult. I remember seeing KM86's being used everywhere on a lot of early Abbey Road sessions including Rick Wright's piano during the DSOTM sessions. |
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Post by ericn on Apr 1, 2016 12:30:31 GMT -6
As much as the KM84 is the standard, don't discount SM81's C451's c460's Gefells and others So many of our favorite classics used these, I still know I can get a good sound o almost anything with an 81!!
Older Schoeos FET, modern Josphson, Beyer and even my favorite Sony's (the very mic that was voted favorite discontinued in Jaspers blind survey) Will all give you a great tone, as will MBHO and Audix/MBHO SCX1s sleepers!
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Post by dandeurloo on Apr 1, 2016 12:30:52 GMT -6
These are really nice. I borrowed Scott's for a few days. 50% of the time i choose it instead pf my km84's. The P84 actually has a nicer top end. pelusomicrophonelab.com/microphones/P-84.htmlI have used the Joly modded SDC's a bunch as well. They are nice, more grainy sounding and not as meaty but nice. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 1, 2016 12:31:52 GMT -6
We had ONLY 30 KM86s at Motown for a number of years until I bought some other mikes because I wanted to learn how to use them since no other studios but EMI and RCA had that many.
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