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Post by scumbum on Jan 12, 2016 22:12:49 GMT -6
I'm building a room to record in my garage and looking for stuff to help sound proof the room .
I found these Genie Clips .
What do you guys think ?
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Post by scumbum on Jan 12, 2016 22:23:22 GMT -6
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 12, 2016 22:57:01 GMT -6
I'm building a room to record in my garage and looking for stuff to help sound proof the room . I found these Genie Clips . What do you guys think ? Ok, here ya go, save your money and get RC11 resilient channel, build your room out of 24gauge metal studs, they are VASTLY superior to wood studs, then measure down 18" from the top, and 20" from the bottom, install the channel around the room at those heights, poly glue the face of the channel as you go, use 5/8" typex rock, and put your screws every 4" and make sure you don't hit anything but the face of the channel, make sure not to leave any gaps, and you are done, if you want to double up the rock great, use green glue or not, but i would get something between the sheets to help assist shear strength. You have to use hat channel on the ceilings by code, and you should as its a weight issue, the walls having only those 2 channels leaves a very flexible span between channels that behaves like a limp mass absorber that dissipates energy (same applies to the metal studs, they are flexy which is great!), it serves as an ungodly great bass trap! Your room will be way ahead of the game acoustically before you put up a single treatment. Yes, this was a theory of mine I came up with years ago, I've done it in 2 rooms, and it's worked extremely well, and no I don't have any test data Ethan. 8) good luck stranger, i mean Scum 8) Your should check out Gervais's book, it's in PDF form online if you search it, you won't find my specific build tech in there though |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 12, 2016 22:59:07 GMT -6
I'm sure it works well, but it won't work on low bass as well, and it's wicked expensive, save your money and double up on the 5/8" typex, the low stuff is the bother the neighbors stuff don't forget. |
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Post by scumbum on Jan 12, 2016 23:10:06 GMT -6
I'm building a room to record in my garage and looking for stuff to help sound proof the room . I found these Genie Clips . What do you guys think ? Ok, here ya go, save your money and get RC11 resilient channel, build your room out of 24gauge metal studs, they are VASTLY superior to wood studs, then measure down 18" from the top, and 20" from the bottom, install the channel around the room at those heights, poly glue the face of the channel as you go, use 5/8" typex rock, and put your screws every 4" and make sure you don't hit anything but the face of the channel, make sure not to leave any gaps, and you are done, if you want to double up the rock great, use green glue or not, but i would get something between the sheets to help assist shear strength. You have to use hat channel on the ceilings by code, and you should as its a weight issue, the walls having only those 2 channels leaves a very flexible span between channels that behaves like a limp mass absorber that dissipates energy (same applies to the metal studs, they are flexy which is great!), it serves as an ungodly great bass trap! Your room will be way ahead of the game acoustically before you put up a single treatment. Yes, this was a theory of mine I came up with years ago, I've done it in 2 rooms, and it's worked extremely well, and no I don't have any test data Ethan. 8) good luck stranger, i mean Scum 8) Your should check out Gervais's book, it's in PDF form online if you search it, you won't find my specific build tech in there though Thanks for the info ! I'm gonna do what you suggested . A lot of these products are really expensive . Your method is much cheaper and has been proven to work since you've done it yourself . I'm gonna start building the walls soon . Any special advice about the power outlets ? Cutting holes in the wall for the power outlets seems like a bad idea for an air tight room , but how else can you get power into the room . |
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Post by ragan on Jan 12, 2016 23:22:03 GMT -6
Ok, here ya go, save your money and get RC11 resilient channel, build your room out of 24gauge metal studs, they are VASTLY superior to wood studs, then measure down 18" from the top, and 20" from the bottom, install the channel around the room at those heights, poly glue the face of the channel as you go, use 5/8" typex rock, and put your screws every 4" and make sure you don't hit anything but the face of the channel, make sure not to leave any gaps, and you are done, if you want to double up the rock great, use green glue or not, but i would get something between the sheets to help assist shear strength. You have to use hat channel on the ceilings by code, and you should as its a weight issue, the walls having only those 2 channels leaves a very flexible span between channels that behaves like a limp mass absorber that dissipates energy (same applies to the metal studs, they are flexy which is great!), it serves as an ungodly great bass trap! Your room will be way ahead of the game acoustically before you put up a single treatment. Yes, this was a theory of mine I came up with years ago, I've done it in 2 rooms, and it's worked extremely well, and no I don't have any test data Ethan. 8) good luck stranger, i mean Scum 8) Your should check out Gervais's book, it's in PDF form online if you search it, you won't find my specific build tech in there though Thanks for the info ! I'm gonna do what you suggested . A lot of these products are really expensive . Your method is much cheaper and has been proven to work since you've done it yourself . I'm gonna start building the walls soon . Any special advice about the power outlets ? Cutting holes in the wall for the power outlets seems like a bad idea for an air tight room , but how else can you get power into the room . You can run conduit along the interior face of the wall. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 12, 2016 23:35:45 GMT -6
Ok, here ya go, save your money and get RC11 resilient channel, build your room out of 24gauge metal studs, they are VASTLY superior to wood studs, then measure down 18" from the top, and 20" from the bottom, install the channel around the room at those heights, poly glue the face of the channel as you go, use 5/8" typex rock, and put your screws every 4" and make sure you don't hit anything but the face of the channel, make sure not to leave any gaps, and you are done, if you want to double up the rock great, use green glue or not, but i would get something between the sheets to help assist shear strength. You have to use hat channel on the ceilings by code, and you should as its a weight issue, the walls having only those 2 channels leaves a very flexible span between channels that behaves like a limp mass absorber that dissipates energy (same applies to the metal studs, they are flexy which is great!), it serves as an ungodly great bass trap! Your room will be way ahead of the game acoustically before you put up a single treatment. Yes, this was a theory of mine I came up with years ago, I've done it in 2 rooms, and it's worked extremely well, and no I don't have any test data Ethan. 8) good luck stranger, i mean Scum 8) Your should check out Gervais's book, it's in PDF form online if you search it, you won't find my specific build tech in there though Thanks for the info ! I'm gonna do what you suggested . A lot of these products are really expensive . Your method is much cheaper and has been proven to work since you've done it yourself . I'm gonna start building the walls soon . Any special advice about the power outlets ? Cutting holes in the wall for the power outlets seems like a bad idea for an air tight room , but how else can you get power into the room . Ok, i got a great one for this also, run all your romex and secure it where you need to, make sure you leave an extra 3' longer on the whips than you think you will need, now take your sheetrock and cut out for the blue tabbed work boxes, they are the blue plastic boxes with the wing tabs on the screws that grab the back of the sheetrock, now put some silicone around the cut out and install the blue box into the sheetrock while its leaning against the wall on an angle, after that feed the wire whips into the box. Now the good stuff, when you are at the depot, grab a material called Duct seal in the electrical section, it comes in bars or clay, is totally non toxic, and they cost about $1.75 each! Take a bar of that and completely cover the backside of the blue box, it will add serious dead weight mass to the wafer thin box, and is totally air tight, this works extremely well, I did it to every outlet and switch box in my place, and before i put a air recycler vent in here, you couldn't open the door when i turned on the 2 ton ac, the room was sealed so tight that it crackled, snapped and popped as it pressurized from the inside, seriously, it's great stuff, it's actually more effective than the rock! 8) (you must add a serpentine ducted are exchange or you will grow mushrooms in ur room if it's left with the door closed for any length of time)Attachment Deleted |
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Post by ragan on Jan 12, 2016 23:43:35 GMT -6
Thanks for the info ! I'm gonna do what you suggested . A lot of these products are really expensive . Your method is much cheaper and has been proven to work since you've done it yourself . I'm gonna start building the walls soon . Any special advice about the power outlets ? Cutting holes in the wall for the power outlets seems like a bad idea for an air tight room , but how else can you get power into the room . Ok, i got a great one for this also, run all your romex and secure it where you need to, make sure you leave an extra 3' longer on the whips than you think you will need, now take your sheetrock and cut out for the blue tabbed work boxes, they are the blue plastic boxes with the wing tabs on the screws that grab the back of the sheetrock, now put some silicone around the cut out and install the blue box into the sheetrock while its leaning against the wall on an angle, after that feed the wire whips into the box. Now the good stuff, when you are at the depot, grab a material called Duct seal in the electrical section, it comes in bars or clay, is totally non toxic, and they cost about $1.75 each! Take a bar of that and completely cover the backside of the blue box, it will add serious dead weight mass to the wafer thin box, and is totally air tight, this works extremely well, I did it to every outlet and switch box in my place, and before i put a air recycler vent in here, you couldn't open the door when i turned on the 2 ton ac, the room was sealed so tight that it crackled, snapped and popped as it pressurized from the inside, seriously, it's great stuff, it's actually more effective than the rock! 8) (you must add a serpentine ducted are exchange or you will grow mushrooms in ur room if it's left with the door closed for any length of time)Great tip! Scumbum, those boxes will be called "old work" boxes. I may try that clay thing sometime, Tony. I've no doubt it works great. I don't quite get the "while it's leaning against the wall on an angle" part and generally how you're accessing the back of the rock in the stud bay. Wait. I think I just figured out what you meant. While the ROCK is leaning against the wall, before it's hung. Not the receptacle box leaning against the wall. And the extra wire for the trim out is so you have enough play to move the rock around to hang it. Great idea. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 12, 2016 23:48:32 GMT -6
Ok, i got a great one for this also, run all your romex and secure it where you need to, make sure you leave an extra 3' longer on the whips than you think you will need, now take your sheetrock and cut out for the blue tabbed work boxes, they are the blue plastic boxes with the wing tabs on the screws that grab the back of the sheetrock, now put some silicone around the cut out and install the blue box into the sheetrock while its leaning against the wall on an angle, after that feed the wire whips into the box. Now the good stuff, when you are at the depot, grab a material called Duct seal in the electrical section, it comes in bars or clay, is totally non toxic, and they cost about $1.75 each! Take a bar of that and completely cover the backside of the blue box, it will add serious dead weight mass to the wafer thin box, and is totally air tight, this works extremely well, I did it to every outlet and switch box in my place, and before i put a air recycler vent in here, you couldn't open the door when i turned on the 2 ton ac, the room was sealed so tight that it crackled, snapped and popped as it pressurized from the inside, seriously, it's great stuff, it's actually more effective than the rock! 8) (you must add a serpentine ducted are exchange or you will grow mushrooms in ur room if it's left with the door closed for any length of time)Great tip! Scumbum, those boxes will be called "old work" boxes. I may try that clay thing sometime, Tony. I've no doubt it works great. I don't quite get the "while it's leaning against the wall on an angle" part and generally how you're accessing the back of the rock in the stud bay. Wait. I think I just figured out what you meant. While the ROCK is leaning against the wall, before it's hung. Not the receptacle box leaning against the wall. And the extra wire for the trim out is so you have enough play to move the rock around to hang it. Great idea. tell him what he's won Johnny! 8) |
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Post by ragan on Jan 13, 2016 0:24:35 GMT -6
Great tip! Scumbum, those boxes will be called "old work" boxes. I may try that clay thing sometime, Tony. I've no doubt it works great. I don't quite get the "while it's leaning against the wall on an angle" part and generally how you're accessing the back of the rock in the stud bay. Wait. I think I just figured out what you meant. While the ROCK is leaning against the wall, before it's hung. Not the receptacle box leaning against the wall. And the extra wire for the trim out is so you have enough play to move the rock around to hang it. Great idea. tell him what he's won Johnny! 8) I hope it's a nice new Broyhill bedroom set.... |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 13, 2016 6:13:58 GMT -6
I think this is great advice Tony, build it right from the get go ! As you know, you can screw around with a poorly planned room forever. I am probably in my current place for just a few years till the kids fly but I have been thinking about getting a new place with an unfinished basement and starting from scratch and building its once right ! Ragan do you get the sheet set too ?  |
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Post by drbill on Jan 13, 2016 14:19:15 GMT -6
Scumbum - at the risk of pissing off anyone in the DIY crowd, I've found that Jeff Hedback @ www.hedbackdesignedacoustics.com has saved me more money than I could have ever paid him. Maybe because his prices are fair and down to earth compared to some of the acoustic design companies. Someone who does this for a living every day of the week is well worth the money spent. You will make less mistakes, have less question marks hanging over you, find all kinds of killer products you don't hear about on the internet ( (a couple of mine were a dead silent air intake fan and fujitsu mini split system) and actually get advice that can save you money and going "too far" when you don't need to. Among many "celebrity" clients, Jeff's done rooms or is in the process of doing rooms for Brad McGowan, Jeff Steiger, Dan Deurloo, myself, Greg @ Kush Audio, and on and on. All guys who have built studios in the past and felt the need for some extra help. Hiring - and TRUSTING - Jeff over the advice of friends who have built dozens of pro control rooms was the best thing I've done on my new CRM build.... He listens to me and finds a way to meet my needs while still getting the results he wants, rather than telling me how i have to do things. |
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Post by drbill on Jan 13, 2016 17:28:48 GMT -6
Jeff appealed to me because he was not a "gotta do it my way or the highway" kind of guy. I don't know the type, size or intricacy of room you hired Pelonis to do, but in my experience, Jeff is super fair in his pricing and nowhere near those costs - at least when dealing with "small time" folk who aren't multi millionaires.
All I can say is that his consultation has been excellent, I have a peace of mind knowing that I have a very experienced backstop that will get things right if I make a mis-step (cause there's ALL kind of internet expert info out there that conflicts), and his suggestions have saved me more than I spent on him. That's all I need to know, myself. Of course, some of his suggestions have cost me MORE as well, but after careful consideration and research, I chose to spend the money.
I think 20 years ago, your assumption was probably dead on. These guys were interested in building the next Mix Magazine cover studio. But these days, I think they realize where the building is happening - in small studios like you or I would probably build. I'd hazard to guess that it's a 200:1 ratio at least these days. Adapt or die out.....
BTW, good luck on the LA house. It's rough I know. The market is just insane at the present, and doesn't look to get any better unless we have another financial meltdown. The house we sold just about 2 years ago went up $350k in a very short period of time (3-4 years). No one but Chinese investors could afford it. Luckily, there were a ton of those types looking to buy in the neighborhood we sold in. Allowed us to move out of town, and have never been so happy with a decision.... Best of luck with your search.
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Post by scumbum on Jan 15, 2016 22:36:42 GMT -6
So can I attached the Hat Channel , the ceiling of my room to the truss in the garage ? Is it strong enough ? Also theres a vent up at the top of the garage , you can see the light coming in . I was gonna seal it but I've read it helps keep the moisture and mold from growing in the garage . Attachments:
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 16, 2016 2:03:34 GMT -6
So can I attached the Hat Channel , the ceiling of my room to the truss in the garage ? Is it strong enough ? Also theres a vent up at the top of the garage , you can see the light coming in . I was gonna seal it but I've read it helps keep the moisture and mold from growing in the garage . No, not 4' on center like that, it has to have a joist/nailer 2' on center and blocks, so you'll have to put another joist appropriately sized for span across at every in between. But forget that, my suggestion is for you to go through the pain of putting those hat channels on the roof rafter portion of those trusses, insulate, and carefully fit your doubled up 5/8" rock around the start of the lower portions of the trusses, and let the lower portion of the trusses remain exposed in the room, sandem, stainem, or paintem, or wrapem to deaden them against vibrational transfer to the roof(usually not a problem on asphalt tar shingle roofs), you will thank me when you hear how much better your drums will sound in the room, also make sure you make the room longer in one direction, but not in multiples(or too close) of the width, once you get the box finished, if you can afford it, you can have hedback or another qualified acoustician design treatment that will work within that space, i'm well aware as most are, that real world dictates the layout, and it is what it is, but remember, if you limit yourself to 8' ceilings, you will NEVER get a great drum sound, air can't be faked, and that short of a height cannot be absorbed short of having the thickness of absorption come down just above your head while your seated, and even then the mics and your ears/brain will pick up the location cues off of those minimal reflections, it will sound hooded and small at best, been there done that, trust me on this, just take the time and do it up high! The diff between a 14' peaked, and an 8' flat ceiling is astonishing. btw, do NOT cover that gable end vent, locks, or hard walled serpentine ducting for all your ventilation needs will keep sound from escaping(of course i'm assuming you are worried about neighbors), another thing to consider is cooling, there are some different things you can do that are quieter than a split, and a lot cheaper, but i'm not going to get into all that typing, if you want to give me a call and pick my brain, i could rattle a ton of info off to you in words in 1% the time of typing, just PM me. btw, if you can afford it, you should make sure you get plans approved, permits, build to code.. blah blah, to keep it all legal, I am a B Licensed GC in the state of Cali, anything that i've suggested to you here is not my PROFESSIONAL advice as I haven't seen this with my own eyes, it is important that you don't miss critical elements in your fit out, it's no joke, and you can get hurt or hurt others with incompetent construction techniques, that said, you can take to the bank the suggestions i've made as they are backed up by 28 years of real world experience. |
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Post by RicFoxx on Jan 16, 2016 8:12:54 GMT -6
Take Tony's advice it's VERY Solid!!! I went through the same process and believe me...you will actually save time by proper planning and doing things right the first time instead of rushing into things and flying by the seat of your pants. By the way, I also agree 100% with Tony about 8ft ceilings...you will never be completely happy with your space. My best recordings have been with higher ceilings and I fight my space with 8ft ceilings...It feels like running a race with someone holding on to my shirt.
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Post by drbill on Jan 16, 2016 11:13:46 GMT -6
As a related topic that's a bit off topic, but relevant.....
I've never done a build out where the initial costs did't hurt like #@!$. But long term, I've always been glad that I bit the bullet and did things right.
Tony is right in that you can't cut corners on this stuff. If you don't have the money - wait. When you have the money - wait a little longer until you have 1.20% of the money you think it will take. Get professional advice. Do things once, and do them right. You (or whoever) can bypass this advice, but I've been in soooooooooo many half-ass studios where they cut corners on one thing or another, and it's never fun to work there. Proper electrical. Adequate to great HVAC. Enough SqFt to get the needed jobs done. Killer acoustics or treatment. All vastly more important that that gear you're waiting to stack inside it. A "just wing it" approach is destined to sub standard design almost always - unless you're really lucky.
Oh and regards to stacking gear in a room..... One of the best ways to mess up your acoustics. Proper racks, and room sizes and machine room can make or break things. Best of luck in your buildout.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 16, 2016 14:26:44 GMT -6
I'm admitting right up front that I didn't read this whole thread so if I'm being redundant please ignore. I've built 3 studios with varying degrees of success and FAILURE. I've made so many mistakes based on what I THOUGHT I knew or what seemed logical or what poorly informed people told me. Failure in this pursuit can be a massive stress on your life. I make my living in my studio so it's important to me. If success here is important to you I implore you to get the Rod Gervais book and follow its instructions to the T. I'm not picking on anyone here but in my skimming of the thread I already see misinformation. Lots of good info too, but if you're like me, you will use "common sense" to ignore good info in favor of EASY or CHEAP info. This is physics and smart people have studied it. Trust them. Do yourself a favor. Get that book. Educate yourself. The book isn't the end all but it has real, correct info in it. He also makes himself available online and I've had personal communication with him through other forums. Do it. by all means point out the specific "misinformation" you read, having anything up that doesn't hold true should be called out, i'm sure none of us are interested in steering someone else wrong, I've read Gervais's book cover to cover multiple times, it's great, i mentioned it earlier in this thread as well. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 16, 2016 21:21:01 GMT -6
noah shain , considering i'm the only one who offered up build advice on this thread, i'm waiting for you to respond as to what it is that you read as "misinformation"? as it certainly seems directed at me. To avoid trouble next time, before you claim you "read someone giving mis information" on this site, READ the entire thread, and then back up your claim, or don't say it, this isn't GS.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 16, 2016 22:35:29 GMT -6
If Tony would write a pamphlet or a book with complete details of building a studio from scratch, as well as fitting into a room already there with all his suggestions and tips, I'd buy it.
I've read most of this, but will come back tomorrow for the videos, I'm tired today. My dog woke me up to go out at 2:30 and 5:30 yesterday, when it was pouring rain, of course it stopped around 8:00, his usual walk time. ugh..
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Post by noah shain on Jan 17, 2016 0:54:23 GMT -6
noah shain , considering i'm the only one who offered up build advice on this thread, i'm waiting for you to respond as to what it is that you read as "misinformation"? as it certainly seems directed at me. To avoid trouble next time, before you claim you "read someone giving mis information" on this site, READ the entire thread, and then back up your claim, or don't say it, this isn't GS. Tony you are so right. I am not an expert, I was skimming, I have a LOT of baggage in this area because I've been ripped off, mislead, made stupid mistakes that seemed like good logical choices and generally failed or at least fallen quite short at my attempts to build my own rooms. I thought I saw some misinfo in your post but I was mistaken. I thought you recommended 25 gauge studs and channel. Re-reading in horror at having offended you I saw that it was 24 gauge. Total knee jerk reaction that made me look like a jerk! Your expertise here is clear. Apologies. This is the bullshit free forum so, in that spirit... Post deleted. Don't hold it against me guys! I'm damaged goods in this area. My bad. Please return to the previously scheduled programming. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 17, 2016 1:40:28 GMT -6
noah shain , considering i'm the only one who offered up build advice on this thread, i'm waiting for you to respond as to what it is that you read as "misinformation"? as it certainly seems directed at me. To avoid trouble next time, before you claim you "read someone giving mis information" on this site, READ the entire thread, and then back up your claim, or don't say it, this isn't GS. Tony you are so right. I am not an expert, I was skimming, I have a LOT of baggage in this area because I've been ripped off, mislead, made stupid mistakes that seemed like good logical choices and generally failed or at least fallen quite short at my attempts to build my own rooms. I thought I saw some misinfo in your post but I was mistaken. I thought you recommended 25 gauge studs and channel. Re-reading in horror at having offended you I saw that it was 24 gauge. Total knee jerk reaction that made me look like a jerk! Your expertise here is clear. Apologies. This is the bullshit free forum so, in that spirit... Post deleted. Don't hold it against me guys! I'm damaged goods in this area. My bad. Please return to the previously scheduled programming. No worries Noah, to be clear on the metal stud thing, the gauge used is always contingent upon what is being built, studio layouts are often built inside an existing commercial structure, sometimes eliminating the need for load bearing 2 leaf systems, and ceilings are often hung with wire, if you can use thiner gauge studs it helps with vibrational, and low bass absorption due to the fact that they are flimsy and insulation accounts for the majority of backing behind the sheet rock, those materials act as a bit of a limp mass absorber because they excite over their height and width so easily, turning sound vibrational energy into heat energy, much more than when there are stiffer wood members(heh heh, he said stiffer wood members), wood also sustains and transfers vibrational energy much more easily, they are best used in a double leaf weight bearing configurations IME. The biggest challenge about all this stuff is the consequences of a single mistake, you can do 99% of a job perfectly, but if you do 1 thing wrong it can cause whats called a "short circuit", and that will seriously degrade the system. NO joke, if you float a wall on resilient channel, and one single screw goes through to far and hits a stud, it hard fastens the floating system, and equals a significant failure. I think the one thing everyone agrees on here...., Make sure you do your homework if you attempt it yourself, if you can afford it, get the right people to help you.....which still requires doing your homework 8) |
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Post by Ward on Jan 17, 2016 4:29:22 GMT -6
I love this thread!! Keep sharing stories guys, I'll weigh in with a few of my own soon.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 17, 2016 9:45:45 GMT -6
Dang, if I win the lottery, or have a bunch of hit records, I think I'd rather try to find a space already completed that sounds good. I totally get what Tony says about one small mistake being like a hole in a dam, you're kinda fucked. Even hiring someone is risky. The contractor would have to be a dedicated to perfection specialist in studio design, otherwise if one guy in a work crew makes an error like puncturing a stud, he might ignore it or try cover it up.
One huge difficulty I've encountered in all things regarding audio engineering, is my belief that everything matters.
I'm grateful for all the helpful info from the gang here, it's helped me find my way back from leaving the music business, albeit rather slowly.
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Post by RicFoxx on Jan 17, 2016 10:59:27 GMT -6
I love this thread!! Keep sharing stories guys, I'll weigh in with a few of my own soon. i can't stress air quality enough! You can't spend long hours in a room with bad ventilation. This has to be planned properly! |
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