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Post by carymiller on Dec 2, 2015 17:05:21 GMT -6
Hey gang,
Hope all of you are well.
I've been looking at summing mixer solutions to replace my console (just built a new computer on an X99 platform I'm going to document on here in another thread this weekend as well.)
The main thing is I was looking at smaller footprint desks like the Aurora Sidecar (which has unbalanced inputs into it's masterbus like an 80's series Neve), and the Undertone Audio custom consoles they no longer build (with a Tube and Transformer driven 2 Bus section, as to offset ear fatigue.)
These are expensive solutions, but even if I could afford such extravagance (which I can't), I am interested in looking into other possible solutions to mimic the gain-staging and cross talk of a console using outboard.
My question is, instead of bothering with a summing mixer, why couldn't analog inserts work well enough if your AD/DA conversion is top notch?
Say you have ten CAPI Heider FD312's for example in line mode. And you used them as analog inserts on four submixes and a master fader, as long as you had the I/O to patch them, wouldn't this layer transformers in a signal chain that gets you closer to a console in terms of mechanical signal flow?
Hope all is well with you guys.
- C
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Post by swurveman on Dec 2, 2015 17:09:44 GMT -6
Say you have ten CAPI Heider FD312's for example in line mode. And you used them as analog inserts on four submixes and a master fader, as long as you had the I/O to patch them, wouldn't this layer transformers in a signal chain that gets you closer to a console in terms of mechanical signal flow? Hope all is well with you guys. - C Good question. I'm curious to know the answer to this as well. I don't know enough about consoles to give an educated opinion. I hope somebody will enlighten us.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 2, 2015 18:52:47 GMT -6
The only summing mixers that could get me to give up the console Are The SSL Sigma, and a API 8200 systemfull of Scott's Red Dots and ED Andersons transformers !
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Post by sean on Dec 2, 2015 19:30:58 GMT -6
SSL Sigma is the only summing mixer that makes sense for me, because of the gain staging using outboard. But, if you are just using plugins and analog on your stereo mix they make more sense. Another round on conversation using analog inserts is sort of a no no for me but now a days with modern converters it's probably alright
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 2, 2015 19:46:42 GMT -6
The only summing mixers that could get me to give up the console Are The SSL Sigma, and a API 8200 systemfull of Scott's Red Dots and ED Andersons transformers ! I am sure you would have fun with the SPL Mixdream with 16 inserts..... and mh it sounds like a console to me. Worked a few times with it.... spl.info/en/products/summing/mixdream/overview.html
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Post by mdmitch2 on Dec 2, 2015 20:02:00 GMT -6
Lately I've been stemming out my completed mixes and running each stem through a vp28 pair. It always has the desired effect.... more glue, more separation, center more defined, etc.
I don't have enough VP28's to mix through them in this way, but that was my plan before I ended up buying a console. Seems like a great alternative to a dedicated summing unit, but it does require a lot of conversion, especially if you want to integrate a bunch of other outboard.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 2, 2015 20:04:25 GMT -6
Lately I've been stemming out my completed mixes and running each stem through a vp28 pair. It always has the desired effect.... more glue, more separation, center more defined, etc. I don't have enough VP28's to mix through them in this way, but that was my plan before I ended up buying a console. Seems like a great alternative to a dedicated summing unit, but it does require a lot of conversion, especially if you want to integrate a bunch of other outboard. What did you get for a console?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 2, 2015 20:07:23 GMT -6
The only summing mixers that could get me to give up the console Are The SSL Sigma, and a API 8200 systemfull of Scott's Red Dots and ED Andersons transformers ! I am sure you would have fun with the SPL Mixdream with 16 inserts..... and mh it sounds like a console to me. Worked a few times with it.... spl.info/en/products/summing/mixdream/overview.htmlYou are orobably right but it's the work flow that I wouldn't care for! I like to mix on the console !
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 2, 2015 20:10:54 GMT -6
SSL Sigma is the only summing mixer that makes sense for me, because of the gain staging using outboard. But, if you are just using plugins and analog on your stereo mix they make more sense. Another round on conversation using analog inserts is sort of a no no for me but now a days with modern converters it's probably alright I hear you Sean ! If it wouldn't cost a fortune and the software was set up I would want a bunch of Sigmas set up as a console with aux sends and busses! A decent controller and it would fit my needs!
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Post by mdmitch2 on Dec 2, 2015 20:16:31 GMT -6
What did you get for a console? Neotek Elite -- 32 mono, 8 stereo channels, 24 bus, plus 2 stereo buses. Planning on modding one bus for a little API summing.... Re-capping was just finished, and I should take delivery of it shortly.....
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Dec 2, 2015 21:41:16 GMT -6
Hey gang, Hope all of you are well. I've been looking at summing mixer solutions to replace my console (just built a new computer on an X99 platform I'm going to document on here in another thread this weekend as well.) The main thing is I was looking at smaller footprint desks like the Aurora Sidecar (which has unbalanced inputs into it's masterbus like an 80's series Neve), and the Undertone Audio custom consoles they no longer build (with a Tube and Transformer driven 2 Bus section, as to offset ear fatigue.) These are expensive solutions, but even if I could afford such extravagance (which I can't), I am interested in looking into other possible solutions to mimic the gain-staging and cross talk of a console using outboard. My question is, instead of bothering with a summing mixer, why couldn't analog inserts work well enough if your AD/DA conversion is top notch? Say you have ten CAPI Heider FD312's for example in line mode. And you used them as analog inserts on four submixes and a master fader, as long as you had the I/O to patch them, wouldn't this layer transformers in a signal chain that gets you closer to a console in terms of mechanical signal flow? Hope all is well with you guys. - C You can indeed do this with good results. I've ran mixes through my Heritage DMA 73 and it sounds wonderful. Does it sound like a console? Don't know but it sounds damn good. We could do the same with any amplifier pair in line mode. The magic happens on how hard we hit them. But it does something no plugin can duplicate.
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Post by popmann on Dec 2, 2015 22:16:02 GMT -6
I don't know how you're thinking a summing mixer and analog inserts is related. Unless you just mean to color the sound. using analog inserts doesn't bypass the flawed floating point summing of the software.
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Post by drbill on Dec 2, 2015 23:20:13 GMT -6
My question is, instead of bothering with a summing mixer, why couldn't analog inserts work well enough if your AD/DA conversion is top notch? Yes. After a lot of research, lots of listening, lots of R&D, Brad McGowan and I have put together a system that is focused exactly towards what you're looking for. Much more elegant, recallable and easier to dial in than streaming a bunch of mic pre's together (which is what I used to use and ultimately what led me to develop the concept and idea of the Silver Bullet along with Brad). So many people are searching for ways to do quality analog work in their DAW with a new work flow paradigm, and that's where Brad and I headed in the design of this. realgearonline.com/thread/2368/louder-liftoff-silver-bulletThere's also a very long and detailed thread on the other site (GS search Silver Bullet in the New Gear section) with tons of info. They are finally available. There are a couple guys putting together EXTENSIVE hybrid systems based around silver bullets now without consoles, but designed to "drive" into hybrid busses similar to how Brauer drives his console busses. I think a couple guys will be rocking 5 SB's and I'll be using 4. At least to start. Will probably add more later. These are a gain stagers dream come true. You're in AZ right? Give a shout out.
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Post by carymiller on Dec 3, 2015 8:27:49 GMT -6
I don't know how you're thinking a summing mixer and analog inserts is related. Unless you just mean to color the sound. using analog inserts doesn't bypass the flawed floating point summing of the software. I honestly could care less about the flawed floating point. Phase Non-Linarities and Cross-Talk are technically issues in a quality class A console (but they add to perceived depth and stereo imaging), and the old 80's series consoles had unbalanced summing at the 2Bus stage, summing in from the submixes and channels, which caused a slight increase in noise floor as a trade-off for better imaging on top of chained gain stages and electronics in channel strips, etc. Yes I'm after coloring the sound, but in this case, it's through replicating the mechanical signal chain you would see in a console (Channel Strips > Submixes > 2 Bus) as well as replicating the transformer stages. The reason I'm less concerned than EVER about AD/DA conversions using analog inserts is my personal studio is upgrading to mastering grade converters, and after using the new Eventide H9 guitar pedals which use AD/DA converters on your guitar tone, I'm at a point where I'm certain this isn't going to hurt the way things sound (unlike 5 or 6 years ago, where most consumer grade converters would add artifacts which would ultimately hurt your tone/signal flow when inserting analog inserts into a DAW.)
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Post by carymiller on Dec 3, 2015 8:36:02 GMT -6
My question is, instead of bothering with a summing mixer, why couldn't analog inserts work well enough if your AD/DA conversion is top notch? Yes. After a lot of research, lots of listening, lots of R&D, Brad McGowan and I have put together a system that is focused exactly towards what you're looking for. Much more elegant, recallable and easier to dial in than streaming a bunch of mic pre's together (which is what I used to use and ultimately what led me to develop the concept and idea of the Silver Bullet along with Brad). So many people are searching for ways to do quality analog work in their DAW with a new work flow paradigm, and that's where Brad and I headed in the design of this. realgearonline.com/thread/2368/louder-liftoff-silver-bulletThere's also a very long and detailed thread on the other site (GS search Silver Bullet in the New Gear section) with tons of info. They are finally available. There are a couple guys putting together EXTENSIVE hybrid systems based around silver bullets now without consoles, but designed to "drive" into hybrid busses similar to how Brauer drives his console busses. I think a couple guys will be rocking 5 SB's and I'll be using 4. At least to start. Will probably add more later. These are a gain stagers dream come true. You're in AZ right? Give a shout out. Hey William, I am...can I Private Message you my phone number? I'd like to talk about this unit in depth if you have a spare 20 minutes or so sometime this week. =) I remember when you guys were first talking about this, it looks really intriguing and cool!
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Dec 3, 2015 10:00:59 GMT -6
I don't know how you're thinking a summing mixer and analog inserts is related. Unless you just mean to color the sound. using analog inserts doesn't bypass the flawed floating point summing of the software. Popman is dead on here. The only true way to get full benefit is a new capture. That said, hardware inserts work as well for what you're wanting to do. Just not as slick IMO.
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Post by carymiller on Dec 3, 2015 10:04:22 GMT -6
I don't know how you're thinking a summing mixer and analog inserts is related. Unless you just mean to color the sound. using analog inserts doesn't bypass the flawed floating point summing of the software. Popman is dead on here. The only true way to get full benefit is a new capture. That said, hardware inserts work as well for what you're wanting to do. Just not as slick IMO. But with Mytek level AD/DA conversion and up...wouldn't any inaccuracies due to floating point summing in your DAW be diminishing returns Vs. the time spent on a new capture? Especially with modern computers being as fast/efficient as the currently are?
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Dec 3, 2015 10:24:16 GMT -6
Well any of these new converters these days are good enough. Try it for yourself and you'll see. The benefit can easily be heard.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 3, 2015 10:30:02 GMT -6
SSL Sigma is the only summing mixer that makes sense for me, because of the gain staging using outboard. But, if you are just using plugins and analog on your stereo mix they make more sense. Another round on conversation using analog inserts is sort of a no no for me but now a days with modern converters it's probably alright I hear you Sean ! If it wouldn't cost a fortune and the software was set up I would want a bunch of Sigmas set up as a console with aux sends and busses! A decent controller and it would fit my needs! I thought the Sigma was using the SuperAnalogue concept that is transformerless. I understand the workflow advantage, but the box itself doesn't emulate a traditional consle-like the SSL 4000E Series- does it?
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Post by drbill on Dec 3, 2015 10:32:54 GMT -6
You're in AZ right? Give a shout out. Hey William, I am...can I Private Message you my phone number? I'd like to talk about this unit in depth if you have a spare 20 minutes or so sometime this week. =) I remember when you guys were first talking about this, it looks really intriguing and cool! Sure, feel free. Mixing today but I'll have a break at some point....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 14:46:23 GMT -6
Just park analog pieces on certain channels and just push the signals from the daw into the processing until you have the sound that you like. Recall is same as if you were mixing ITB
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Dec 3, 2015 16:54:04 GMT -6
I hear you Sean ! If it wouldn't cost a fortune and the software was set up I would want a bunch of Sigmas set up as a console with aux sends and busses! A decent controller and it would fit my needs! I thought the Sigma was using the SuperAnalogue concept that is transformerless. I understand the workflow advantage, but the box itself doesn't emulate a traditional consle-like the SSL 4000E Series- does it? It is super analog, it's just the ideal way to work analog with a small footprint and recall!
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 3, 2015 17:25:12 GMT -6
Some of my favourite records are mixed on a cheap mackie vlz. I cant hear anything bad. If you know your tools you will have a great mix even with the mackie.
Why not useing one of those, or one of the A&H ZEDs after my tech moded the PSU this litlle thing is less noisy and rocks everything I need for a home setup.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 3, 2015 17:30:06 GMT -6
Some of my favourite records are mixed on a cheap mackie vlz. I cant hear anything bad. If you know your tools you will have a great mix even with the mackie. Why not useing one of those, or one of the A&H ZEDs after my tech moded the PSU this litlle thing is less noisy and rocks everything I need for a home setup. can you point us to one of these mackie mixes that sound great please? i'd love to sell all my real gear and go this route if it doesn't matter, not kidding.
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 3, 2015 19:26:50 GMT -6
Some of my favourite records are mixed on a cheap mackie vlz. I cant hear anything bad. If you know your tools you will have a great mix even with the mackie. Why not useing one of those, or one of the A&H ZEDs after my tech moded the PSU this litlle thing is less noisy and rocks everything I need for a home setup. can you point us to one of these mackie mixes that sound great please? i'd love to sell all my real gear and go this route if it doesn't matter, not kidding. For example "moon safari" by the french group AIR was done on a Mackie. I love this album since the 90s. Liam Howlett mixes on Mackie, as far I am informed. I know two well known german producers loving mackies. I am sure there is a diffrence to high end consoles, otherwise it would be stupid to own them. I work myself with one of the cheap ZED24 A&H after the PSU mod its a great tool. Easy, try yourself, those boards are cheap. You wont have the same headroom like with a 4k +27, but after a few weeks you get used to it. On the ZED 24 I like to push the summing amp in the end of the mix a little bit, it shapes of transients, pushes mids and low end a tat. It sounds sweet. Intresting is how good the low end sits on the ZED. Its not high end gear but to quote my tech: The components I have seen in your ZED are at least as good as in some of the more expensive ones I serviced in the 80s. I hope this helps?
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