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Post by popmann on Nov 19, 2015 11:33:54 GMT -6
I think an important distinction to be made when discussing stuff is the quantifiable definition of truth: --hardware units of any age do not use "the same algorithms" as plug ins unless you mean in the panned back higher level because they utilize VERY different DSP pipelines. --hardware sounds and behaves in use DIFFERENTLY than a majority of plug ins, IME. The second is important because I maintain that there is a clear line--people who grew up using plugin reverb nearly always find them superior. Superior literally is the same as inferior when the inalienable bit is that they are DIFFERENT. A solid state guitar amp in nearly every measurable way is a superior amplification of the guitar pickup outputs compared to that old saturatey tube class AB topologies. And find me a guitar player who thinks it is superior. I'm sure they exist. I know Nile Rogers has had issues with a lot of tube amps response time given his style and studio DI signature sound....but, last time I saw him, he was playing a Peavey Classic 50 or something....I digress--the point is, you can't argue that the use the same algorithms, because they don't....nor do they, IME, sound and behave the same. But, I would also point out, I've now sold all my hardware FX. But, that's not as much because algorithms have improved in software....so much as they're simply different tools I've forced myself to use for long enough I'm comfortable. With engineers no longer in the drivers' seat of this type of tech, I can either adapt and get what I want from it....or go into this expensive big old school. And right now--that's the trend. I've never been comfortable being on trend.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 19, 2015 18:39:16 GMT -6
Hello. This is my first post! Old guy new member . I am Lou. I have had a songwriter demo studio up in Canada for a long long time ...since about 87, and thought I would come in and see if old dogs can learn new tricks. :-) I just want to comment on the Bricasti as well. I now own 3 units and the controller. There is nothing like it out there in my opinion. I also have in my collection built over the years a Lexicon 480L, 300, PCM 91,81, 70, LXP II ... I love hardware verbs over software . I have tried quite a few software verbs and here is my take. There is no interaction I find with software reverbs. Not just convolution even the emulating algorithm style as well. It stands to reason when there is no analogue I/O in software, so I don't think they take the time to sample a thousand input levels and output levels it is just a mathematical equation... therefore it doesn't respond any different other then it's louder or it's quieter. I also find if you feed older digital verbs with AES like the 300 or 480L you don't have that element either other than the AD on board.. No heat . No variables . I am sure some of you may disagree with me but it is what I find missing with a lot of plugins. Not just verbs. Amplitude gives different or non linear results. That is what makes a 300 different then an M7. Besides the programs written inside. I think your moderator said it best when he said ( paraphrasing) being a part or not being a part of the sound. The best reverbs are not in the way. I use reverbs to design all kinds of rooms and Bricasti has that task down. Fix up your room dead just once and add a Studio A,B,C setting from the Bricasti and magic happens to your mix before playing with long tails and vocal/string halls or plates. Hope that wasn't to lengthy for my first post. Lou I bought the Lexicon PCM bundle because my ear told me it gels with the source. The EMT 140 or 250 Plate by UAD sounds fantastic when summed over the console, love it. Maybe I am stupid but they can compete with my HW verbs... No one said they do the M7 trick.
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Post by mobeach on Nov 19, 2015 19:06:49 GMT -6
My Soundcraft console has dual Lexicon processors built into it, not sure which ones but they sound pretty good.
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noego
New Member
Microphones put you there!
Posts: 11
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Post by noego on Nov 20, 2015 7:44:49 GMT -6
I think an important distinction to be made when discussing stuff is the quantifiable definition of truth: --hardware units of any age do not use "the same algorithms" as plug ins unless you mean in the panned back higher level because they utilize VERY different DSP pipelines. --hardware sounds and behaves in use DIFFERENTLY than a majority of plug ins, IME. The second is important because I maintain that there is a clear line--people who grew up using plugin reverb nearly always find them superior. Superior literally is the same as inferior when the inalienable bit is that they are DIFFERENT. A solid state guitar amp in nearly every measurable way is a superior amplification of the guitar pickup outputs compared to that old saturatey tube class AB topologies. And find me a guitar player who thinks it is superior. I'm sure they exist. I know Nile Rogers has had issues with a lot of tube amps response time given his style and studio DI signature sound....but, last time I saw him, he was playing a Peavey Classic 50 or something....I digress--the point is, you can't argue that the use the same algorithms, because they don't....nor do they, IME, sound and behave the same. But, I would also point out, I've now sold all my hardware FX. But, that's not as much because algorithms have improved in software....so much as they're simply different tools I've forced myself to use for long enough I'm comfortable. With engineers no longer in the drivers' seat of this type of tech, I can either adapt and get what I want from it....or go into this expensive big old school. And right now--that's the trend. I've never been comfortable being on trend. Hey and if works for you great! I use plug ins all the time in my lap top I should clarify. And for tracking in the studio so the talent can have ambience in the cans. When it comes to final mix I find the hardware wins for me. There are a thousand benefits to plug ins included saving all your settings on the auxs without any wiring with your tracks, but just like mp3s on an Ipod or smartphone it is convienient, but give me an uncompressed mix any day over convienience. I have to say with risk of fire...that maybe we are adapting to a new way of listening giving into convenience. I am a microphone man. I love acoustics. Tecorded music with microphones. I may be a dinosaur in this as I mentioned already. Its a challenge thats worth it to me. .And no one is stupid or wrong in this. Thats the beauty of recording. Its just another instrument.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 20, 2015 8:33:17 GMT -6
Owning hardware is neither trendy or expensive, it's a solid investment, it works, it will continue to work, you cannot say that about any plugin, you are at the mercy of the modeler and OS upgrades, which means you have about a month of security in ur purchase. I would also contend that plugins cost much, much more $, In the past I have allowed myself to be comically nickled and dimed to death buying plugs, I probably own 10 reverbs plugs I don't use, my lex and Dp4 hardware kill all of them IMO.
A Bricasti M7M is on my short list, that will require a plugin 8)
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noego
New Member
Microphones put you there!
Posts: 11
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Post by noego on Nov 20, 2015 9:03:04 GMT -6
By the way..thanks for the welcome everyone.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 20, 2015 9:52:09 GMT -6
Hello. This is my first post! Old guy new member . I am Lou. I have had a songwriter demo studio up in Canada for a long long time ...since about 87, and thought I would come in and see if old dogs can learn new tricks. :-) I just want to comment on the Bricasti as well. I now own 3 units and the controller. There is nothing like it out there in my opinion. I also have in my collection built over the years a Lexicon 480L, 300, PCM 91,81, 70, LXP II ... I love hardware verbs over software . I have tried quite a few software verbs and here is my take. There is no interaction I find with software reverbs. Not just convolution even the emulating algorithm style as well. It stands to reason when there is no analogue I/O in software, so I don't think they take the time to sample a thousand input levels and output levels it is just a mathematical equation... therefore it doesn't respond any different other then it's louder or it's quieter. I also find if you feed older digital verbs with AES like the 300 or 480L you don't have that element either other than the AD on board.. No heat . No variables . I am sure some of you may disagree with me but it is what I find missing with a lot of plugins. Not just verbs. Amplitude gives different or non linear results. That is what makes a 300 different then an M7. Besides the programs written inside. I think your moderator said it best when he said ( paraphrasing) being a part or not being a part of the sound. The best reverbs are not in the way. I use reverbs to design all kinds of rooms and Bricasti has that task down. Fix up your room dead just once and add a Studio A,B,C setting from the Bricasti and magic happens to your mix before playing with long tails and vocal/string halls or plates. Hope that wasn't to lengthy for my first post. Lou That might be the best endorsement of a Bricasti I've read! Welcome, noego!
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 20, 2015 9:58:11 GMT -6
Owning hardware is neither trendy or expensive, it's a solid investment, it works, it will continue to work, you cannot say that about any plugin, you are at the mercy of the modeler and OS upgrades, which means you have about a month of security in ur purchase. I would also contend that plugins cost much, much more $, In the past I have allowed myself to be comically nickled and dimed to death buying plugs, I probably own 10 reverbs plugs I don't use, my lex and Dp4 hardware kill all of them IMO. A Bricasti M7M is on my short list, that will require a plugin 8) Ain't that the truth. How much freaking money have I spent on plugs over the years...sigh
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Post by 79sg on Nov 20, 2015 12:38:26 GMT -6
Owning hardware is neither trendy or expensive, it's a solid investment, it works, it will continue to work, you cannot say that about any plugin, you are at the mercy of the modeler and OS upgrades, which means you have about a month of security in ur purchase. I would also contend that plugins cost much, much more $, In the past I have allowed myself to be comically nickled and dimed to death buying plugs, I probably own 10 reverbs plugs I don't use, my lex and Dp4 hardware kill all of them IMO. A Bricasti M7M is on my short list, that will require a plugin 8) Ain't that the truth. How much freaking money have I spent on plugs over the years...sigh Too much is the probable answer to your question JK
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 20, 2015 15:26:15 GMT -6
The problem with software verbs is efficiency is a premium, no one will want to use an amazing reverb that grinds their machine to a halt. Especially when they could just S/PDIF out to a standalone unit that can use its whole ARM/SHARK whatever processor or multiple processors to its hearts content. The chip might be at max capacity, but that's no skin of your bones.
I also don't mind using hardware verb because, unlike a lot of stuff, latency just isn't that important. I can just alter the pre-delay to get what I want.
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Post by stratboy on Nov 20, 2015 16:08:47 GMT -6
I'm in the market for a new to me verb. Budget is <$300. I'm thinking lex mx 200 or 300, TC 300, 350 or M One. I would appreciate your comments. obviously, the hardware vs software debate is resolved for me. I have an AKG BX 5 that I love. I'm looking for plates, bigger rooms and efx.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,940
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Post by ericn on Nov 20, 2015 16:54:46 GMT -6
M one , M2000 never really liked the Lex MX series, I would rather a PCM60 or LXP15, don't forget Yamaha REV and SPX as well as Alesis Q2 Ensoniq and Krurzwiel!
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Post by tasteliketape on Nov 20, 2015 17:09:41 GMT -6
An old roland srv330 cheap and decent Use able probably not the best on the market but I got mine 150 dollars
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 20, 2015 17:29:50 GMT -6
I'm in the market for a new to me verb. Budget is <$300. I'm thinking lex mx 200 or 300, TC 300, 350 or M One. I would appreciate your comments. obviously, the hardware vs software debate is resolved for me. I have an AKG BX 5 that I love. I'm looking for plates, bigger rooms and efx. Yamaha Reverb 500 much underrated and you can get them on e bay between 80 and 120 $
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Post by delcampo on Nov 20, 2015 20:37:19 GMT -6
FWIW, For freaking years I looked high & low for a Ursa Major Stargate & finally found one recently. On the console buss it can get impressively plate like. I often use the UAD 140/250…preceded by OW (especially on stereo console channels) or, Lexicon PCM stuff but, the depth of the HW box & how it envelopes the source can't be denied. Even a darn microverb used judiciously can be sweet. …The Sony being another very usable one to keep an eye out for.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 20, 2015 21:00:52 GMT -6
FWIW, For freaking years I looked high & low for a Ursa Major Stargate & finally found one recently. On the console buss it can get impressively plate like. I often use the UAD 140/250…preceded by OW (especially on stereo console channels) or, Lexicon PCM stuff but, the depth of the HW box & how it envelopes the source can't be denied. Even a darn microverb used judiciously can be sweet. …The Sony being another very usable one to keep an eye out for. At least for the Lexicon PCM native bundle the creator of the code, Michael Carnes, stated many times that the plug in is based on the exact same code as the hardware. If there is a big diffrence it should fade away in a blindtest. If not I bet the level matching is wrong.
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Post by delcampo on Nov 20, 2015 21:18:39 GMT -6
FWIW, For freaking years I looked high & low for a Ursa Major Stargate & finally found one recently. On the console buss it can get impressively plate like. I often use the UAD 140/250…preceded by OW (especially on stereo console channels) or, Lexicon PCM stuff but, the depth of the HW box & how it envelopes the source can't be denied. Even a darn microverb used judiciously can be sweet. …The Sony being another very usable one to keep an eye out for. At least for the Lexicon PCM native bundle the creator of the code, Michael Carnes, stated many times that the plug in is based on the exact same code as the hardware. If there is a big diffrence it should fade away in a blindtest. If not I bet the level matching is wrong. I've heard that as well. Could be totally true. Never compared the PCM to Lexicon HW. I was actually referring to the Stargate when I mentioned "the HW box"…guess I wasn't so clear on that though. ooops.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 20, 2015 21:54:44 GMT -6
At least for the Lexicon PCM native bundle the creator of the code, Michael Carnes, stated many times that the plug in is based on the exact same code as the hardware. If there is a big diffrence it should fade away in a blindtest. If not I bet the level matching is wrong. I've heard that as well. Could be totally true. Never compared the PCM to Lexicon HW. I was actually referring to the Stargate when I mentioned "the HW box"…guess I wasn't so clear on that though. ooops. I am not much into that, one domain must be better, debate. I still use two fucked up noisy midiverbs, sometimes those bad verbs do the trick. LOL I just can say that I had a lot of wow moments with the pcm 96 vintage plate. If artificial is taken as a compliment .... sweet. I also like that every algo has its own gui ... smart move. The PCM bundle is in the EU at 230 Euro now. Who ist not jumping on that is may not liking the warm, lush sound of it, or is just stupid. And I think the new verbs by Michael are my next buy, maybe christmas. I cant hear anything bad on those too. Yes they are not the M7.... or a Yardstick.... I do not care as long I like my output.
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noego
New Member
Microphones put you there!
Posts: 11
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Post by noego on Nov 21, 2015 0:43:05 GMT -6
Someone mentioned the LXP15. EricN did...just checked..(edited) The first rendition was a little grainy but they came out with the LXP15 II and I still use it today on some stuff. It has that beautiful dark syrup tone of the old LEX 224 xl series that a lot of people love. You can find them for a few hundred now and then. The faceplate on them were kind of a plastic overlay and if they were in and out of the rack a lot they looked pretty ragged but the sound is delicious. the PCM stuff after the 70 was a lot brighter but if you EQ the returns they have a lot of horsepower in the box. I haven't tried the PCM 96 only the 91,81and 70.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 21, 2015 1:07:48 GMT -6
Someone mentioned the LXP15. The first rendition was a little grainy but they came out with the LXP15 II and I still use it today on some stuff. It has that beautiful dark syrup tone of the old LEX 224 xl series that a lot of people love. You can find them for a few hundred now and then. The faceplate on them were kind of a plastic overlay and if they were in and out of the rack a lot they looked pretty ragged but the sound is delicious. the PCM stuff after the 70 was a lot brighter but if you EQ the returns they have a lot of horsepower in the box. I haven't tried the PCM 96 only the 91,81and 70. Glad you're here! Appreciate your experience.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 21, 2015 7:42:29 GMT -6
Someone mentioned the LXP15. The first rendition was a little grainy but they came out with the LXP15 II and I still use it today on some stuff. It has that beautiful dark syrup tone of the old LEX 224 xl series that a lot of people love. You can find them for a few hundred now and then. The faceplate on them were kind of a plastic overlay and if they were in and out of the rack a lot they looked pretty ragged but the sound is delicious. the PCM stuff after the 70 was a lot brighter but if you EQ the returns they have a lot of horsepower in the box. I haven't tried the PCM 96 only the 91,81and 70. I have the lxp15ll, it went through Jim Williams who took it to another level, great reverb box, ssshhhhh.... 8) Welome noego
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noego
New Member
Microphones put you there!
Posts: 11
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Post by noego on Nov 21, 2015 9:42:50 GMT -6
Haha thanks gents .
I love talking gear. Tony..(I hope I got the name right) Jim Williams mods are pretty great stuff I have heard. How did it change things on your LXP15II? Was it worth the price? I am curious.
I forgot to mention too, the LXP15 or the later 15II, was not a cheap unit when it came out. I seem to recall it was about $1500 to $2000.00 new. In the early 90s. It was the first high end unit that met in the middle price wise for Lexicon. The 300L was in small facilities. But for the project studio the hefty single space LXP. . It weighs a lot compared to the more chip based PCM series and is all analogue IO......With 5 foot switch jacks for live selection. While their flagship 224XL come 480L was around 6k and a far reach for small guys like me back then, the LXP15II was a sampling of the big boys.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 21, 2015 12:20:05 GMT -6
Haha thanks gents . I love talking gear. Tony..(I hope I got the name right) Jim Williams mods are pretty great stuff I have heard. How did it change things on your LXP15II? Was it worth the price? I am curious. I forgot to mention too, the LXP15 or the later 15II, was not a cheap unit when it came out. I seem to recall it was about $1500 to $2000.00 new. In the early 90s. It was the first high end unit that met in the middle price wise for Lexicon. The 300L was in small facilities. But for the project studio the hefty single space LXP. . It weighs a lot compared to the more chip based PCM series and is all analogue IO......With 5 foot switch jacks for live selection. While their flagship 224XL come 480L was around 6k and a far reach for small guys like me back then, the LXP15II was a sampling of the big boys. like everything he does, cleaner blacker blacks, and smoother opened up everywhere, i lifted the lid to look as i can't not haha, he did a bunch of stuff i can't begin to understand....
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Post by mitchkricun on Nov 21, 2015 13:35:12 GMT -6
Owning hardware is neither trendy or expensive, it's a solid investment, it works, it will continue to work, you cannot say that about any plugin, you are at the mercy of the modeler and OS upgrades, which means you have about a month of security in ur purchase. I would also contend that plugins cost much, much more $, In the past I have allowed myself to be comically nickled and dimed to death buying plugs, I probably own 10 reverbs plugs I don't use, my lex and Dp4 hardware kill all of them IMO. A Bricasti M7M is on my short list, that will require a plugin 8) I agree! But I'm seriously looking at Liquidsonics Reverberate 2 cuz I'm thinking' 11 reverb plugs should do the trick... I have (and overuse) a Bricasti M7 and a PCM70. The Bricasti is absolutely beautiful in sparse arrangements and I unabashedly have absolutely no self control/discipline with it. Not as dependable as I would have hoped. Mine has gone down 3 times in 6yrs, but each time they diagnosed the problem via email and sent me the new part for free. Great CS. FWIW, For freaking years I looked high & low for a Ursa Major Stargate & finally found one recently. On the console buss it can get impressively plate like. I often use the UAD 140/250…preceded by OW (especially on stereo console channels) or, Lexicon PCM stuff but, the depth of the HW box & how it envelopes the source can't be denied. Even a darn microverb used judiciously can be sweet. …The Sony being another very usable one to keep an eye out for. At least for the Lexicon PCM native bundle the creator of the code, Michael Carnes, stated many times that the plug in is based on the exact same code as the hardware. If there is a big diffrence it should fade away in a blindtest. If not I bet the level matching is wrong. I've compared the PCM 96 to PCM Native and they sound the same to me. Also agree with you that the REV500 is a sleeper...
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Post by Guitar on Nov 21, 2015 14:14:40 GMT -6
After my good luck with the TC Electronic D-Two delay and some of their pedals I am now giving serious consideration to the M One. I am also interested in the Kurzweil Rumour.
I still need to figure out a better hybrid organization for my mixing gear. I feel like I'm getting closer anyway.
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