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Post by jazznoise on Nov 11, 2015 6:29:08 GMT -6
Hey guys, so I've another drum session coming up in 2 weeks and I've been thinking about this a lot. It easier feels like the hardest bit of the kit to tune and I'd be lying if I said it didn't have me downright stumped at times. I know a lot of people tune the top head between G-A and then the bottom head between C-D on a standard 14", but I struggle tell when I should be aiming for higher or lower.
Now in my band I tend to rough out the setup before he comes in, and so I just roughly tune the kit to where it should sit best for the recordings but the drummer is using one of those Joey Jordison deep piccolo snares, it's a 13" and the thing throws me 3 sheets to the wind. In particular which way to tune the resonant head on a snare drives me nuts. Last time I just tuned so there's no super sour overtones and then dampen it if required, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think we could do better.
Am I an idiot? What I do? Help? Ahhhhh!
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Post by svart on Nov 11, 2015 8:40:02 GMT -6
First, I'd go get a Remo Emperor X CS dot top head. The center dot stops a lot of the ripples that cause over-ring and has a secondary benefit of sounding fatter and being more durable. When I use these, I no longer need to dampen the head at all.
Secondly, I use a tunebot for tuning my drums. I tune on a per-lug basis on top and bottom. It gives me uniformity and repeatability. I generally aim for between D3 to F3 tuning on 13 and 14 snares. I generally get to this region and then tune up and down a bit for the song.
Tunebot settings:
Bottom lugs - 415hz/G4
Top lugs - 280hz/C4#
Top head center - 196hz/G3
Also, some woods and metals will ping at higher or lower frequencies. If you come across a snare that has a really odd resonance, then it's possible that the shell is resonating at a different frequency than the tuning of the heads. Usually some careful listening and tuning up and down around the note will reveal what you need to do. Hint: it sounds like a pair of guitar strings coming into harmony as you tune them.. My black magic snare likes being at the lower end of the tuning range I mentioned, while my walnut snare likes being at the top end of the range.
Also, IF you can't get the snare to sing with the song, at least get it to sing with itself. So many people talk about tuning for the song, but I've heard tons of folks attempt this and end up with a dead sounding snare, that just happens to be in tune with the song. I'd much rather hear a snare that sings and sounds full than one that is technically "correct".
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 11, 2015 9:19:05 GMT -6
My 2 cents, Pitch tuning A snare is generally BS IMO, tension tuning is where it's at, 1st get a snare drum that sounds good, and what I mean by sounds good is a supraphonic 5 or 6.5 luddy haha, tune the bottom head timbali tight( very tight) , the batter should be an emperor or a vintage emperor, the higher u tune it... the drier it will get, strainer should only be tensioned enough to rid most of the sympathetic buzz, find a record with a good snare sound and relative pitch to it, DONT try to copy the ambience of the recoding, let a snare drum be a snare drum, if it's dead when u track it, it'll be 6' under after processing.
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Post by scumbum on Nov 11, 2015 9:57:01 GMT -6
I have this DVD here by Bob Gatz www.amazon.com/Drum-Tuning-Sound-Design-Simplified/dp/B0001NBLQ8On the DVD he says to tune the bottom head to a G and then the top to either a 2nd , 3rd or 5th . This is not from that DVD but its still Bob Gatz , he says here bottom head to an A . I use a $20 korg tuner with a mic built in . Once you find where you like your drums , then tuning is fast and easy because the tuner is a fast reference . Or you can do it by ear , like Tony , I think majority of drummers do that . Just tune it where it sounds / feels good . My problem was I'd do it by ear , get the drum to sound good and then never be able to get that sound again and be very frustrated "My snare used to sound good , I changed the skin now it sounds like ass!!" Tony if you dialed in your drums and then took a tuner to it , you'd probably find your reference , the spot where you always tune them . |
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Post by junior on Nov 11, 2015 10:31:30 GMT -6
My 2 cents, Pitch tuning A snare is generally BS IMO, tension tuning is where it's at, 1st get a snare drum that sounds good, and what I mean by sounds good is a supraphonic 5 or 6.5 luddy haha, tune the bottom head timbali tight( very tight) , the batter should be an emperor or a vintage emperor, the higher u tune it... the drier it will get, strainer should only be tensioned enough to rid most of the sympathetic buzz, find a record with a good snare sound and relative pitch to it, DONT try to copy the ambience of the recoding, let a snare drum be a snare drum, if it's dead when u track it, it'll be 6' under after processing. I agree more or less with this. Also, been meaning to try this for a while: Looks kinda' wacky but who knows. I'm open minded... BTW, if you don't have a Tunebot, there's an iOS alternative that'll only set you back a couple of bucks (if you have an iPhone): iDrumTuneGood luck! |
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 11, 2015 11:13:07 GMT -6
I knew Bob Gatzen when he owned a drumshop hear in CT. (Bob was responsible for a LOT of head innovations Evans made and that Remo more or less copied.) Bob shared with me that most 14 inch snares sound best when the bottom head is tightly tuned to an F# or G and the top head lower to taste. I basically use that approach most of the time unless I'm going for a more radical sounding snare. The benefit of tuning the bottom head this way is that you can then tune the top head to taste--either lower for punch or cranked up for crack. For a 13" I would say tune to the G to A range. Try it--it works.
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 11, 2015 11:16:08 GMT -6
Hah! An iPhone. That's cute. I'd be open to buying a proper gauge tuner, currently I just use a guitar or keyboard for reference. I'm open to buying a drum dial, and I'm also open to buying my own Ludwig for sessions.
So to what end are people tuning the resonant head high? I've heard tuning it high "dries out" the snare? I know that tuning 2 skins the same creates a dramatically longer resonance, as I do this with toms if I want them to really boom.
Last note before I go - anyone with specific experience with piccolo drums? This kit is between a wall of fuzzed out guitars, so it's hard to tell if having such an attack-orientated snare sound is helping or hurting. Thanks for all the comments. I'll watch those videos in a while!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2015 11:20:42 GMT -6
(Bob was responsible for a LOT of head innovations Evans made and that Remo more or less copied.) Oupssss that's the other way around. Evans copied REMO.<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/15456f87/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script> |
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Post by svart on Nov 11, 2015 12:02:05 GMT -6
Hah! An iPhone. That's cute. I'd be open to buying a proper gauge tuner, currently I just use a guitar or keyboard for reference. I'm open to buying a drum dial, and I'm also open to buying my own Ludwig for sessions. So to what end are people tuning the resonant head high? I've heard tuning it high "dries out" the snare? I know that tuning 2 skins the same creates a dramatically longer resonance, as I do this with toms if I want them to really boom. Last note before I go - anyone with specific experience with piccolo drums? This kit is between a wall of fuzzed out guitars, so it's hard to tell if having such an attack-orientated snare sound is helping or hurting. Thanks for all the comments. I'll watch those videos in a while! I have a 3.5 hammered brass free floater, but it's more of a specialty thing. I'll just tune the other snares higher instead. I don't think crazy fast attacks translate well for most songs, or else everyone would be rimshotting all the time.. Even then, with the piccolo snare I'll still tune for the same range, but the decay is a lot faster and with less body to the sound. |
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 11, 2015 13:15:43 GMT -6
Hah! An iPhone. That's cute. I'd be open to buying a proper gauge tuner, currently I just use a guitar or keyboard for reference. I'm open to buying a drum dial, and I'm also open to buying my own Ludwig for sessions. So to what end are people tuning the resonant head high? I've heard tuning it high "dries out" the snare? I know that tuning 2 skins the same creates a dramatically longer resonance, as I do this with toms if I want them to really boom. Last note before I go - anyone with specific experience with piccolo drums? This kit is between a wall of fuzzed out guitars, so it's hard to tell if having such an attack-orientated snare sound is helping or hurting. Thanks for all the comments. I'll watch those videos in a while! Tuning the bottom head to around F# or G makes the sound of the drum pop in a nice focused way. |
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Post by wiz on Nov 11, 2015 15:15:34 GMT -6
For a guitar player singer, I have spent more time than is even remotely sane, trying to learn to tune drums... its really hard.
I have had tune bot, iPhone, drum dial... the drum dial is the one that stayed.
I still can't tune anywhere near as good as a good drummer.
Watched every video I could find, including the Gatzen ones.. read the drum bible from front to back.
Asked a million questions from a hundred drummers....
I still can't do it very well...
whats my point...? Its hard, takes a lot of time.
Also, I found, better drums are way easier to tune.. WAAAAYYYY I started on cheap drums, now I have a set of Yamaha Oak Customs, a Black Beauty and a Supra. The supra is killer...
So, if you are having trouble, get someone real good to come in and tune it for you, run the drum dial over it... get him to get a few sounds you like (also you will truly hear what the drum is capable of) and then at least for that
drum you have some chance of repeating it.
I still practice this every couple of weeks..
did I mention its Hard to do?
8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 11, 2015 17:17:15 GMT -6
Just re-reading. I forgot that no one here has seen my phone. I only got a smartphone this year, and it's a cheap Samsung that got broken when a flightcase rolled and hit me. I remarked it didn't hurt considering the speed..then I checked my phone. Anyway, yeah, didn't mean to sound like a dick.
Cheer's Scumbum for the Gatzen post - his stuff is very informative and the video is vaguely familiar. Interesting that he works by pitch.
The dude Junior posted is kinda nuts. He's not keeping the tension even around the head at all. Not that they're bad snare sounds, but they all seemed extremely high to me. Seems like he should buy a piccolo!
Thanks everyone else for their posts. I'll take your advice lpedrum and see how it works out. Svart I'm beginning to agree that the size of the drum does limit how much body it can lend. It does sound great at practice, and the room is very lively. But the guys want a drier drum sound, and so bringing up the close mics kind of highlights how quick a decay the drum really has. I've been hinting a Ludwig Supralite or something similarly affordable would be a good investment for the band - but I can't tell other people how to spend their money.
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Post by svart on Nov 11, 2015 17:32:03 GMT -6
Just re-reading. I forgot that no one here has seen my phone. I only got a smartphone this year, and it's a cheap Samsung that got broken when a flightcase rolled and hit me. I remarked it didn't hurt considering the speed..then I checked my phone. Anyway, yeah, didn't mean to sound like a dick. Cheer's Scumbum for the Gatzen post - his stuff is very informative and the video is vaguely familiar. Interesting that he works by pitch. The dude Junior posted is kinda nuts. He's not keeping the tension even around the head at all. Not that they're bad snare sounds, but they all seemed extremely high to me. Seems like he should buy a piccolo! Thanks everyone else for their posts. I'll take your advice lpedrum and see how it works out. Svart I'm beginning to agree that the size of the drum does limit how much body it can lend. It does sound great at practice, and the room is very lively. But the guys want a drier drum sound, and so bringing up the close mics kind of highlights how quick a decay the drum really has. I've been hinting a Ludwig Supralite or something similarly affordable would be a good investment for the band - but I can't tell other people how to spend their money. I have a Black Magic (like a black beauty but with cast hardware/rims), a 70's Acrolite(aluminum), Pearl free floating brass piccolo (with wood shells too), a walnut shelled snare with cast hardware, and a handful of random sized maple snares (13x6, 12x8, 14x5.5, etc). If you want a dry sound, the more shallow size can help the decay, but the timbre and tone come from the shell material. The ringing comes almost entirely from the heads. A softer wood(birch, maple) will be warmer sounding, a shallower shell will have less decay, and cast rims have a dampening affect on the sound. Couple this with a dampened head of some kind and it'll be as dry as you can get without sounding too dead. As always, use Remo heads, sometimes Aquarian. I've never had a good experience with Evans. Stay away from the gimmick heads too, myself and others have found they just don't record well. In fact I have a pile of heads of all different brands and models about 3ft high that I've tried. Nothing quite beats the Emperor X CS dot head for record-ability to me. |
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 11, 2015 17:59:30 GMT -6
(Bob was responsible for a LOT of head innovations Evans made and that Remo more or less copied.) Oupssss that's the other way around. Evans copied REMO.<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/15456f87/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script> Remo certainly has had innovations. But on many counts they copied Evans, in fact Evans created the plastic head first. Bob Gatzen designed the underside muffler ring on drumheads that revolutionized bass drums heads. Remo quickly ran with their version of that as did other drum head companies. I'm not sure why you're so quick to come to Remo's defense. |
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 11, 2015 18:00:04 GMT -6
I'd love an Acrolite but the shipping and a shitty Euro means they're not such a bargain here, especially after the inevitable maintenance. I think I prefer steel snares, so a Ludwig Supralit is probably where I'll go if work ends up requiring it. Cheap recs encouraged, of course.
Another talking point. Snare wires: does anyone have any opinions on them? I've never gotten 5 minutes talk out of a drummer on them. But maybe we have a real corksniffer amongst our ranks who can set us straight.
Also, really glad to see this can be an actual discussion here. You're an asset, guys.
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Post by svart on Nov 11, 2015 18:12:28 GMT -6
I swear by Puresound snare wires. They're made of high carbon steel so they don't really stretch all that well which is good you don't want stretchy snare wires. The harder the metal the more snap they have. They're higher priced but I fully believe they're worth it. I'm with Tony surprisingly that the snares should not be very tight. You should be tight enough to barely buzz
But not so tight that the bottom head can't vibrate. I'll typically tighten mine up to where they touch the bottom head and then maybe one more turn. A lot of times guys come to the studio with their snare wires just absolutely cranked and stretched out. Once they are stretched out they'll never be quite even with each other again and you'll get weird buzzing when you shouldn't be getting.
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 11, 2015 18:28:35 GMT -6
As always, use Remo heads, sometimes Aquarian. I've never had a good experience with Evans. Stay away from the gimmick heads too, myself and others have found they just don't record well. In fact I have a pile of heads of all different brands and models about 3ft high that I've tried. Nothing quite beats the Emperor X CS dot head for record-ability to me. I'd have to disagree on the "always use Remo" statement. I have a lot of drums and use both Evans and Remos depending on the need. I find that for my vintage Ludwigs Evans are the only heads that will fit the slightly bigger old shells. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 11, 2015 18:29:36 GMT -6
Oupssss that's the other way around. Evans copied REMO.<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/15456f87/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script> Remo certainly has had innovations. But on many counts they copied Evans, in fact Evans created the plastic head first. Bob Gatzen designed the underside muffler ring on drumheads that revolutionized bass drums heads. Remo quickly ran with their version of that as did other drum head companies. I'm not sure why you're so quick to come to Remo's defense. people have been doing that since the 60's, so unless he came up with it then.... |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 11, 2015 18:49:34 GMT -6
As always, use Remo heads, sometimes Aquarian. I've never had a good experience with Evans. Stay away from the gimmick heads too, myself and others have found they just don't record well. In fact I have a pile of heads of all different brands and models about 3ft high that I've tried. Nothing quite beats the Emperor X CS dot head for record-ability to me. I'd have to disagree on the "always use Remo" statement. I have a lot of drums and use both Evans and Remos depending on the need. I find that for my vintage Ludwigs Evans are the only heads that will fit the slightly bigger old shells. I think i speak for about 90% of the trap kit drummers on the planet when i say... Remo Emperor coated batter/clear ambassador reso for snare drum, if you can't get a snare sound with that combo the snare isn't happening. I've been using the vintage emp lately as it has a bit thicker ply/coating so it drys up just a tad more without any need for internal muffling or damping doohickeys(which i utterly and totally despise, they ruin tone and head feel, you should dry the drum up with tuning or head selection IMO) |
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 11, 2015 19:41:05 GMT -6
Remo certainly has had innovations. But on many counts they copied Evans, in fact Evans created the plastic head first. Bob Gatzen designed the underside muffler ring on drumheads that revolutionized bass drums heads. Remo quickly ran with their version of that as did other drum head companies. I'm not sure why you're so quick to come to Remo's defense. people have been doing that since the 60's, so unless he came up with it then.... Just what are you specifically referring to Tony? I'm talking about the built in extra inch of plastic that Evans first built into the underside of the drum collar. I'm not good with dates but it was late 80's early 90s. Remo followed up with their Powerstroke heads. I'm pretty familiar with the technology because back then I'd go to Bob Gatzen's store in Wethersfield CT weekly and Bob was alway working on a new head innovation in the back. Re Remo vs. Evans--I'm not looking to make this into a big debate. All I'm saying is the Evans heads are great and shouldn't be dismissed. Their slightly larger hoop size makes them fit much easier than Remo on vintage drums. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2015 20:11:04 GMT -6
Oupssss that's the other way around. Evans copied REMO.<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/15456f87/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script> I'm not sure why you're so quick to come to Remo's defense. Because REMO put these drums heads that your talking in the market way before Evans, That's why……...<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/4c51cb87/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script> |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 11, 2015 22:19:17 GMT -6
people have been doing that since the 60's, so unless he came up with it then.... Just what are you specifically referring to Tony? I'm talking about the built in extra inch of plastic that Evans first built into the underside of the drum collar. I'm not good with dates but it was late 80's early 90s. Remo followed up with their Powerstroke heads. I'm pretty familiar with the technology because back then I'd go to Bob Gatzen's store in Wethersfield CT weekly and Bob was alway working on a new head innovation in the back. Re Remo vs. Evans--I'm not looking to make this into a big debate. All I'm saying is the Evans heads are great and shouldn't be dismissed. Their slightly larger hoop size makes them fit much easier than Remo on vintage drums. I'm talking about the extra inch or two of plastic used on the underside of a bass drum heads, guys were doing that in the 60's.... odd that someone from the 80's would try to take credit for it? I personally think evans is a better co than remo, remo does some very frustrating things with limited sizing, availability issues etc, i wish evans would take them over and expand on there good ideas, and ditch some of that head scratching stuff....  Attachment Deleted |
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Post by levon on Nov 12, 2015 0:29:42 GMT -6
Jazz, if you can't tuna fish, you can't tuna drums...
Seriously, I have the same struggles. Has anyone here used the drum dial? Does that thing help at all? Wiz said he uses it, what's the verdict?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 0:58:19 GMT -6
I live for 13" snares. Tune it to an F on the top, C on the bottom. Use the Tunebot and have a blast.
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 12, 2015 1:56:25 GMT -6
Just what are you specifically referring to Tony? I'm talking about the built in extra inch of plastic that Evans first built into the underside of the drum collar. I'm not good with dates but it was late 80's early 90s. Remo followed up with their Powerstroke heads. I'm pretty familiar with the technology because back then I'd go to Bob Gatzen's store in Wethersfield CT weekly and Bob was alway working on a new head innovation in the back. Re Remo vs. Evans--I'm not looking to make this into a big debate. All I'm saying is the Evans heads are great and shouldn't be dismissed. Their slightly larger hoop size makes them fit much easier than Remo on vintage drums. I'm talking about the extra inch or two of plastic used on the underside of a bass drum heads, guys were doing that in the 60's.... odd that someone from the 80's would try to take credit for it? I personally think evans is a better co than remo, remo does some very frustrating things with limited sizing, availability issues etc, i wish evans would take them over and expand on there good ideas, and ditch some of that head scratching stuff.... In addition to owning his own drum shop, Bob Gatzen worked for Evans (among other drum companies) and was responsible for the design of most of their heads at the time. I'm not claiming he invented dampening drumheads--as you point out drummers had been doing that sort of thing for decades. But Bob was the first to figure out how to to design for manufacture the built in muffle ring on the bass drum head, and that was a major innovation. He also designed Noble and Cooley drums--a very creative, smart dude when it comes to drum gear. |
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