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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 2, 2015 5:11:41 GMT -6
Hey Guys,
I am super pumped as I have a really fine cellist coming over to track for my new song.
His name is Raphael Weinroth-Browne; check his technique out:
I will use either my C12 or my mk-u47 through my dizengoff d4 as it is really fast with transients . But I also have an la 610 mkii with a full tube upgrade; its optal might be nice ?
Any advice about mike placement ?
The 47 has nice natural compression but I do have wa76's but wonder about them adding colour.
thx !
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Post by mobeach on Aug 2, 2015 5:49:17 GMT -6
I was going to suggest a decent warm sounding condenser about 2 feet away, this video sort of confirms that, but it's a good shootout at any rate.
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Post by mulmany on Aug 2, 2015 6:05:33 GMT -6
All I can say is distance is your friend, every string instrument is different, and listen to the artist if he has a lot of recording experience.
Do you have a ribbon? I usually like to record with a clean mic and a ribbon so I can vary the presents when mixing without eq.
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Post by Randge on Aug 2, 2015 6:23:56 GMT -6
For bowed instruments, I am a ribbon guy all the way, as I hate hearing bow scrape. A Royer 122 around 2' back slightly above the bridge is magic. If the room is beautiful, I will have a rich sounding condenser about 6-8' back to capture ambience and sparkle. The combination is breath taking if done right. Spend a lot of time listening to him play in the room acoustically, so you have an honest knowledge of what he sounds like before you even put a mic on it.
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Post by Randge on Aug 2, 2015 6:27:59 GMT -6
Wonderful player, he is btw!
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 2, 2015 8:56:56 GMT -6
Yes, exactly what Randy said, try to get ur second mic in a reinforced cycle if possible, hard back/ side walls or gobos can be ur friend as they may help excite the body of th instrument, but leave lots of space out front. And for the love of God, Do NOT track with eq or compression!!!! If u screw the pooch then ur shit out of luck. If u feel u must, then insert and track clean uneffected tracks as safeties.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 2, 2015 9:29:28 GMT -6
I think it was Caimbridge who did a bunch of studies of how string instruments radiate their frequencies. Google pictures of violin sound radiation and take a look at where all the null points are. Cello is gonna be similar; you might even find pics of cello radiation plots. It'll give a fast track for finding the best mic placement.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 2, 2015 9:44:14 GMT -6
I just listened to those tracks, it makes me want to go to church! haha, It's apparent that when his furniture building masters give him time off, he lives on that thing! (how often do you get a chance to try an Amish woodworker joke..lame 8)
stupid jokes aside, it's pretty clear he's well aware of the importance of the room that he and his Cello are performing in, you should DEFINITELY consider that, and think about renting a killer acoustic space to take full advantage of his formidable talent. big stone space is great for a isolated/lonely vibe, mid size wood becomes more apart of the instrument IMlimitedE with bowed instruments, very curious to hear your results Matt.
I'd also consider hiring a local, reputable AE as an assistant for a few hours to make sure everything goes smoothly, you may learn something new along the way as well?
How did you hook up with this guy?(if you don't mind me asking?)
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Post by M57 on Aug 2, 2015 9:54:42 GMT -6
What's the style of the tune? Will he be soloing? ..playing multiple parts? ..doubling?
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 2, 2015 10:15:45 GMT -6
Wonderful player, he is btw! Ok ok.... we all know you're the Yoda of this damn stuff, but if you're gonna start talking like him I've gotta brush up on my Yodish.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 2, 2015 11:19:31 GMT -6
The ribbons do give a special tone, but I would never ever show up for classical or string player without my favorite SDCs and a uhber clean pre amp! Many classical guys want their tone as true as possible!
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 2, 2015 11:55:01 GMT -6
All great suggestions, I have a pair of ribbons sdc with cinemag transformers, a pair of octava mod sdc's, my c12 and my mk-u47. I have 4 apollo ic pre, la610mkii with tube upgrade, 2 warm audio tb12's and my dizengoff d4 I will certainly speak to Raphael as he has obviously been very well recorded in the past and knows his instrument. soundcloud.com/kcatthedog/my-love-08-01-2015My friend Rick contributed the midi strings and lead in this demo. Raphael has carte blanche to play around the current midi strings and or to develop other parts. I found him through contacting a local good studio ( Gallery Studio) that records in a local church. So I feel I got really lucky. I believe firmly that we all learn by doing. I have recorded steel for martin in my room, my own recordings and real drums a number of times. I don't feel that I have a great room but have a largely dead end so I thought I will set up a couple of mikes and ask Raphael for set up advice and then record a couple or three of test tracks and discuss them with Raphael and go with what seems best. I'll keep you all updated: session is scheduled for August 12th, so its going to happen! appreciate the quick feedback; thx everyone !
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Post by Randge on Aug 2, 2015 12:06:48 GMT -6
I always have string players speak up at how their tone sounds here. All of them are wanting a warm and sweet tone that has enough top end to make the mix clearly, but condensers, to my ear, don't sound "true" like they are wanting to hear it. They sound hyped on the top. A properly high passed ribbon is ideal to my ears and sounds like the player in the room. Condensers just can't make that happen for me. Believe me, I have tried everything mic-wise on fiddles and the Royer ribbon always wins. Many of the country players are used to pop country engineers high passing their instrument so high that it sound shrilly, so when they hear a ribbon for the first time, they end up buying one to take with them to their sessions.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 2, 2015 12:49:06 GMT -6
I'm listening Randge I can set up one ribbon, one sdc and both my LDC's and record some passes as he warms up to the demo and then Raphael and I can listen back and see what seems to be gelling with the mix best. although I use apollo I hardly ever track with plugs and just go for trying to get it right at source I also have 2 new warm audio eqp-wa's here, so once we narrow it down , we could play with those a bit too or not
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 2, 2015 12:56:52 GMT -6
I was going to suggest a decent warm sounding condenser about 2 feet away, this video sort of confirms that, but it's a good shootout at any rate. thx very interesting : looks like centred, about 2 feet away and aimed a few inches above bridge and then listen for balance, tone and transient detail.
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Post by Ward on Aug 2, 2015 13:51:33 GMT -6
The very best mic I have used on ALL stringed (Viol family) instruments is the newest AKG C414xls. I have all the others in my extensive collection but the 414xls is just magic on violin/fiddle, viola and cello. YMMV!!
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 2, 2015 14:06:51 GMT -6
Check out the Grammy winning goat rodeo sessions video's, ribbons and sdcs, mostly ribbons, what ribbons do u have Matt?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 2, 2015 14:22:15 GMT -6
My friend records the NY Philharmonic. He uses stereo Shoeps or Neuman K84's. It's probably different in a small room. Range's advice sounds good. just move the cello around a little until you find the sweetest spot and go from there, and don't mic too close.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 2, 2015 14:28:01 GMT -6
I have a pair of panther active ribbons with upgraded transformers. I shot them out modded and unnodded with a Viney cascade
The panthers have a sort of modern ribbon sound not as dark as the Vinjet but certainly ribbon sound vs my octave mod sdc
The shootout video is on my YouTube katthedog channel I used fab filter Q to create freq graphs and posted them too
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Post by EmRR on Aug 3, 2015 9:38:42 GMT -6
Many cases here a ribbon will win. The Samar has plenty of top, and takes eq addition well if you want even more air. Presents the fundamental strongly while minimizing bow scrape and other harshness. A super smooth pro, I usually like a SMC over a LDC.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 14:31:45 GMT -6
Used a pair of N8s on a fine player a couple of weeks ago. It was a concert in a small church. I had a 4-mic setup for mixed chamber music, but the violinist fell ill after the first movement of a piece. The cellist stepped up to save the day with a Bach suite. Didn't have time to do a really studied setup, but I quickly set the mics about 6 feet away. One ribbon was about 4' off the floor and aimed at the lower bout of the cello. The other was about 7' up and aimed about where the fingerboard joined the body. Either mic sounded very nice, so I took the pair and panned them just either side of center. Since the mics were roughly the same distance from the instrument there weren't any cancellation issues. There was plenty of detail with a nice reduction in bow scrape. At the 6' distance there was no problem with proximity effect.
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Post by svart on Aug 5, 2015 7:02:52 GMT -6
I've recorded violins, violas, cellos and bass besides the regular assortment of acoustic guitars.
I've tried so many times to use ribbons but some of the nicer violins and such are much quieter than you think they are, and without jacking up the preamps to near max, you're not getting a usable level. Even then, the noise figure of the preamps start becoming really important specs to watch.
I also haven't like using single mics. It sounds completely unnatural in the mix.
I personally settled on using my Gefell M930's as my go-to mics for classical stringed instruments, and I typically use my SSL9k preamps for their cleanliness and low noise.
Any instrument on the floor, like cello or bass, I put a mic about 1'-2' back from the strings, about 1' higher than the soundholes, pointing down towards the bridges. That way the pickup pattern gets a good mix of soundhole, bridge and bow. The other mic I place higher up, pointing somewhere in the middle of the fingerboard so I get the finger articulation, string resonances and the bow to tie the center together with the other mic.
I then pan them maybe 25% to either side to get a slight stereo image, and then balance the levels.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 5, 2015 7:59:09 GMT -6
so this two Mike technique is akin to miking an acoustic guitar, one for sound hole/body, other for neck but still being very aware of the sonic characteristics of the actual instrument; how its sound emanates ?l
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Post by svart on Aug 5, 2015 8:34:02 GMT -6
so this two Mike technique is akin to miking an acoustic guitar, one for sound hole/body, other for neck but still being very aware of the sonic characteristics of the actual instrument; how its sound emanates ?l Sort of. You have to balance everything. One mic tends to focus on too much of one thing, while two can better capture the spread of the sound from the instrument. Human ears are much more sensitive to minuscule sounds than mics are, so when we stand in a small room with a violin or something, it sounds great. Now, try recording that instrument in a small room with a distance mic and it'll be muddy and boring. Since sound level falls off at half per doubling of distance, micing quiet instruments at distance cuts the amount of primary signal down by half, while allowing nodes to come up in level in the room in relation to the primary signal. Since stringed instruments like violin/cello are actually mostly harmonic content, trying to record them at distance in a small room ends up muddy sounding from all the micro-reflections clashing with the harmonics. So, distance micing pics up more mixed signals from room nodes mixing with the primary signals, coloring the tone of the instrument more than close micing. However, close micing pics up more from only certain areas of the instrument, necessitating using multiple close mics for coverage in small rooms. If you have a large enough room/stage, you can distance mic, but only if the reflections have enough space to lose enough power before/after reflection that they don't interfere with the primary signal. The only other option for purity of tone is to close mic with multiple mics for coverage.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 5, 2015 9:45:55 GMT -6
Thx Svart 1 my room is treated and I have a dead end with a cloud but the room is only 11x20 x 8 so I tend to close mike but you are right you still need to get far enough away to deal with resonance off the source, sound hole, look for the balanced sound that also minimizes room issues: the art in the science !
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