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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 18, 2015 19:22:44 GMT -6
I'm not an Ethanite, if such things exist. I'd disagree about some things; I've heard poly cylindrical diffusers work well - especially in theatres designed for speech. But I agree that the senses are easily fooled and we have to approach our own intuition carefully. Even a broken clock is right twice a day and all that, cognitive and expectation bias are more powerful than a lot of other factors. They make us think deionized water helps with our eczema, sugar pills help us sleep and a Big Ben makes our mixes sound "more analog". I don't think there's anything adamant about being the only person in the thread disagreeing. I'm just calling it as I see it, too. You disagreeing with me doesn't make me adamant, it makes me a fly in the ointment. I'd happily change my stance if there was evidence to prove it. Seems you singled me out with the "don't know where to start" quote? And you're claiming we are unqualified? What gives you the inside scoop on who may or may not be qualified? It's a conversation, you don't need to be smug when you disagree, like Ethan tends to be.. ie. "exposed", yeah, he exposed all the lamo's who get WAYYY better recording results than he does(i mean that objectively, not artistically). The samples he uses are sonically sub average! If you think you can glean differences to which piece is better at converting from test material that is sonically sub average, then have at it, for me it's a non starter(that was my point in stating "goals" in the original post), and if i was in the business of putting people in their place(like ethans whole narrative seems to be, "everyone is fooling themselves" right?), i'd make damn sure my recoded material was THEEEEE SHIT!, not the sub average shit that i've heard him peddle as "proof" of his righteousness in exposing all of us morons as bullshitting ourselves, if he had the sense he'd be embarrassed as hell by it. He's a smart guy, and I agree with some of the things he presents, no one is discounting the importance of room acoustics, it is ULTRA important, and in my view as/if not more important than anything else. I do find it funny how he and those other retail fellas in the GS acoustics section, convolute the shit out of things in order to persuade people to buy their stuff, one day I posted... "if this diffusion is so complicated, why is it that you sell exactly one size and model diffusor?", crickets..... it actually killed the thread. |
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Post by Guitar on Jun 18, 2015 19:26:33 GMT -6
Someone's got a sense of humor!! That's why I love RGO.  |
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Post by jazznoise on Jun 18, 2015 19:34:12 GMT -6
I have absolutely no accountability for what you or anyone can or are not able to hear--that's your own deal. Once again you are placing your own judgement over everyone else's. I think you need to give more benefit of doubt, and be a bit less iconoclastic just based on your own 1-person experience. Which is exactly what you're doing when you start talking about "Ethanites" like it's some cult of people out to make you feel like a dummy. I'm also not responsible for people's raging inferiority complexes, but here we are. All I'm saying is that you're responsible for what you claim, that's something most people over the age of 6 understand. |
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 18, 2015 19:36:34 GMT -6
Hearing is in medical science a process which is not completely investigated yet.
True is that psychology plays a big role, brain plays a role too.
For me it's the real life test.
If any gear does not work in the process I simple sell it.
On one thing Ethan is right.
Befroe you can make a judgement by ears about those things, you need to treat your room.
Ethan should concentrate on doing real base traps instead of doing those tests.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 18, 2015 19:39:34 GMT -6
Look, I think there's a point at which anything can go too far. I don't see why people treat 20 dollar LCD mics the saving grace when the capsule sputter is so thin they wont last much more than a few years of serious use. I don't think you can cheap out on monitors either, and I don't buy port stuffing as a way to get around complex problems in acoustic monitor design. But I think the ADC/DAC and Word Clock crowds have repeatedly failed to demonstrate any difference. The word clock one is inexcusable to me - I've seen many studies and I've heard systems clocked and unclocked and none of its made a rats hair of a difference. A really bad clock might mess everything up, or a bad BNC, but super low jitter vs. suitably low jitter doesn't matter for modern PLL designs. And unless one of you guys has a unique circumstance that can show otherwise, I'd like to hear it.
ADC/DAC I'd almost give creedence - it does have an amplifier stage. But outside of the noise floor, there should be no other problems. The designs are well standardized and documented. The only time I've "heard" converters is when they've bugged out. Like the dodgy 003 I heard one time at a session, only to hear the following week that it ate itself and took out half the rack with it. (Always leave rackspace, kids!). But again if you are hearing something, you should be able to show it. It's not a case of bringing out your boys for the Warsaw ghetto. If you can use words to describe it, surely you can use audio to describe it. That is the end game after all! i've been listening to conversion samples like mad lately, of course the actual converter chips are implemented into a system with op amps and clocks etc, so it's pretty obvious that no one listens to a pcm4222 chip, so all those other things matter and thats just understood for all but you jazz, pretty petty, or intentionally combative? . |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 18, 2015 19:42:46 GMT -6
I have absolutely no accountability for what you or anyone can or are not able to hear--that's your own deal. Once again you are placing your own judgement over everyone else's. I think you need to give more benefit of doubt, and be a bit less iconoclastic just based on your own 1-person experience. Which is exactly what you're doing when you start talking about "Ethanites" like it's some cult of people out to make you feel like a dummy. I'm also not responsible for people's raging inferiority complexes, but here we are. All I'm saying is that you're responsible for what you claim, that's something most people over the age of 6 understand. dude, you need to cut the shit, or take a hike. |
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Post by Guitar on Jun 18, 2015 19:43:11 GMT -6
No, Jazznoise, you have brought in the attitude, and the temper tantrum, and this "prove it" stance. Someone's getting butt hurt! Keep it above the belt let's not get too nasty yuck! Let's have a poop fight on the internet! Take a picture of your mad face!
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Post by jazznoise on Jun 18, 2015 19:45:21 GMT -6
Yes Tony I'm actually really intentionally antagonistic and I enjoy all the passive aggressive snark you guys give me for having a different opinion while you pretend to be the underdog after attacking someone on a forum out of the blue.
What was the aim of this thread other than to vindicate yourself, really? This is just a personal attack on some guy you don't know coupled with a feel good circle jerk. I think you'd want to dwell on that word - petty, I think it's closer to home then you'd like.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 18, 2015 19:47:38 GMT -6
Let the hate flow through you, goood, goood.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 18, 2015 19:57:10 GMT -6
Hearing has been remarkably well investigated. Unfortunately audio skeptics choose to ignore a great deal of what we actually know about hearing.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 18, 2015 20:01:22 GMT -6
Yes Tony I'm actually really intentionally antagonistic and I enjoy all the passive aggressive snark you guys give me for having a different opinion while you pretend to be the underdog after attacking someone on a forum out of the blue. What was the aim of this thread other than to vindicate yourself, really? This is just a personal attack on some guy you don't know coupled with a feel good circle jerk. I think you'd want to dwell on that word - petty, I think it's closer to home then you'd like. Haha, wow, you really got me pegged  , let me simplify for you, i was making the very rudimentary and plain distinction between what i consider to be a piece of dynamic, hifidelity music, and what ethan uses as his sonic example for proving we cant tell differences in conversion, can you hear a difference between the Alison Krause stuff and Ethans stuff? I wonder how a trip through a soundblaster vs the custom conversion that was used on that recording would compare? |
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Post by jazznoise on Jun 18, 2015 20:07:42 GMT -6
I dunno, why don't you do it and see? Or ask him to do it, if you want the burden to lay elsewhere.
And here we go again with the snide remarks, while still avoiding the fact that the whole intent of this thread was clearly negative and that I never antagonized outside of defending a person, who isn't here to defend himself, from cowardly attacks and defending some viewpoints I happen to agree with.
EDIT: Also gonna add that there's multiple threads about products and similar here that I have not touched because I knew it'd lead to a fight and because I'm not that interested in telling people what to do with the money they take home every week. But I think this one overstepped a line.
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Post by yotonic on Jun 18, 2015 20:12:11 GMT -6
The thing that always drove me crazy about the great converter debate on GS and elsewhere, was "who cares". In all the years of being on that forum I never heard a single track from anyone but a few well known producers that ever made the radio. And in most cases those guys were using average converters but great mics, and most importantly great songs from talented artists. A great song is all anyone cares about, and when the song is great the recording can have all sorts of anomalies and it suddenly becomes "character". I understand the craft of engineering and why converters matter. But most engineers are hunting the great artists not the great converters. The art and the business is about the song, the music. The only people wasting time arguing about converters are enthusiasts. Go make a record life is short.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 20:14:57 GMT -6
While i generally like many scientific approaches he propagates, like e.g. ABX testing, reasonable discussion about snake oil cable etc.pp., his point about "stacking is not happening if it is just EQ"...
... there are some wrong conclusions from this. And this is, why Ethan triggers so much and divides the community of audio guys so much...
He makes valid points, draws some valid conclusions *and* some non-valid, which collide with peoples experiences (and in the end, science also, but the discussion mostly does not get this far, because emotional discussion kicks in).
That's the point, where it get's (passive?) aggressive. Tell people they are dumb because they buy and bought expensive cable and converters. Bang! Start fighting ... forget beeing reasonable. That's the kind of reaction Ethan seems to have fun provoking IMO.
Works somehow. :-P
(Very counter-productive.)
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 18, 2015 20:21:02 GMT -6
I dunno, why don't you do it and see? Or ask him to do it, if you want the burden to lay elsewhere. And here we go again with the snide remarks, while still avoiding the fact that the whole intent of this thread was clearly negative and that I never antagonized outside of defending a person, who isn't here to defend himself, from cowardly attacks and defending some viewpoints I happen to agree with. this is what makes you wrong, you project, i made a point, i clarified my point a couple times, i said i like Ethan very early on, but i don't agree with his test measures being legit(thats why i posted the AK and goals), you PROJECT what you believe is ill intent from some dark place that must be within you, you have absolutely no right what so ever to project your shit on me, this is the last time i'm going to explain my intent to you, so seriously dude, add something constructive in a respectful tone, without name calling, or get off of my thread. |
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Post by jazznoise on Jun 18, 2015 20:31:07 GMT -6
I didn't project, your opening point was purely malicious. If you're going to get mad about that and say "I can't have been malicious cause I'm a nice guy" then that's too bad. That's what you did. It doesn't even matter if you like him, because within the first 10 posts it turned into total Ethan bashing.
Either way that's the second time you've avoided my point - why did you make the thread, if not to bash him? What else was there to be done, going from the scenario you setup at the start?
I'm actually being pretty respectful. I haven't called you anything, and I've ignored most of the trolling. But I would like to think that if I or Ethan or anyone else didn't value Tony Camp's opinions very much he wouldn't go make a thread about it on his forums. It's a little uncalled for is all I'm saying.
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Post by wiz on Jun 18, 2015 20:34:31 GMT -6
Horrendously off topic, but I decided to shorten Wiz' link to Ethan's mix (which is really off topic, as he's not a professional R. Eng or Mix Eng.). exposed.ethanwiner.com/480x270.htmWhat the f*ck! Hey jazznoiseyou must have me confused with someone else.... I have never seen that before. I am staggered that the video actually exists. cheers Wiz |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 18, 2015 20:40:56 GMT -6
While i generally like many scientific approaches he propagates, like e.g. ABX testing, reasonable discussion about snake oil cable etc.pp., his point about "stacking is not happening if it is just EQ"... ... there are some wrong conclusions from this. And this is, why Ethan triggers so much and divides the community of audio guys so much... He makes valid points, draws some valid conclusions *and* some non-valid, which collide with peoples experiences (and in the end, science also, but the discussion mostly does not get this far, because emotional discussion kicks in). That's the point, where it get's (passive?) aggressive. Tell people they are dumb because they buy and bought expensive cable and converters. Bang! Start fighting ... forget beeing reasonable. That's the kind of reaction Ethan seems to have fun provoking IMO. Works somehow. :-P (Very counter-productive.) I'm not even going to respond to his last delusional post, Jassnoize in his unimaginable arrogance has managed to tell me what my original intent was repeatedly on this thread, and then proceeded to call me and others=circle jerkoffs, under qualified, failures, inferiority complexes, 6 year olds, cowards, in about 4 posts, and lets not forget the "cunt" incident from the past, I actually advocated on his behalf in the past, but the truth is, if he was standing in front of me right now, i'd cave his whole face in with one punch. I'd like to see him take a permanent hike. |
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Post by jazznoise on Jun 18, 2015 20:42:10 GMT -6
Horrendously off topic, but I decided to shorten Wiz' link to Ethan's mix (which is really off topic, as he's not a professional R. Eng or Mix Eng.). exposed.ethanwiner.com/480x270.htmWhat the f*ck! Hey jazznoiseyou must have me confused with someone else.... I have never seen that before. I am staggered that the video actually exists. cheers Wiz You posted an audio clip from his site, right? Sorry if I'm confused. Anyway the audio sources from his exposed.ethanwiner subdomain rather than just his site - it's just wherever he sorted the music folders, I guess. That sort of confused me so I shortened the url down and...whelp! It's a strange mix of big chests and flat humour, not sure if the other way around would be better though! There's a creepy bit around 9:00 with some tennis balls that's... well, it's itself. Still more fun than most acoustics videos, I guess. |
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Post by wiz on Jun 18, 2015 20:42:38 GMT -6
jazznoiseI see what might have happened here... I was referring to the video of Alisson Krauss, I havent heard any of her stuff, and was floored by that song. I didn't even notice the other links to other videos. I am staggered about the acoustics video with ends up with the chick in her birthday suit... I wonder why he made that video at all. sorry for the confusion. Like the Alisson Krauss, staggered by the nudie acoustics video... cheers Wiz
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 18, 2015 20:44:54 GMT -6
Gee there's a guy who spends a fair amount of time on here who has a really nice AP who could prove you can measure what we hear in converters , he modded one for me! And is just down the street from Tony!
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Post by wiz on Jun 18, 2015 20:46:21 GMT -6
Heres my thoughts on the matter... 8)
converters sound different.
some I like, some I don't.
converters cost different amounts.
some I can afford some I can't.
I learned a lot from Ethan Winers stuff and honestly probably wouldnt make as good a recordings as I do now, if it wasn't for him then.
I have made some cool music on soudblasters.
I have made some cool music on RME, MOTU and APOGEE
I think take in everything everyone says, and see what works, if you find someone who's music you like and their technical viewpoint is cool with you hitch your wagon to them until it doesn't..
be nice to everyone
8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 20:52:57 GMT -6
Recently, i compared (and ABX'ed! to be sure i am not fooled) loop recordings to make my mind up about different converters. I guess quite some of us did over the past weeks in the converter discussions we had about e.g. burl, svart box, apollo......
And we were definitely not a bunch of delusive people that had a bad day and expectation bias only.
There are clearly perceivable differences.
I could pick them clearly in an ABX test rms level-matched not only in the studio, but also on my home-equipment (which might say something about ADC making more of a difference than DAC possibly, although i have decent RM converters in both places but one better than the other).
Others could, too.
Can you cut a good recording with an ADA-8000 or one of my older Swissonics? Sure. I still have one of those.
Would i use my Mytek instead, if possible? Sure!
Does it make a difference, even when i use an entry to mid class console channel pre?
Yes it does certainly.
The recordings would sound clearly different, and i guess everyone with half way intact hearing would be able to hear the difference with a decent monitoring.
Would everyone pick the more expensive converter as his preference?
Probably not. But maybe most...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 20:57:42 GMT -6
While i generally like many scientific approaches he propagates, like e.g. ABX testing, reasonable discussion about snake oil cable etc.pp., his point about "stacking is not happening if it is just EQ"... ... there are some wrong conclusions from this. And this is, why Ethan triggers so much and divides the community of audio guys so much... He makes valid points, draws some valid conclusions *and* some non-valid, which collide with peoples experiences (and in the end, science also, but the discussion mostly does not get this far, because emotional discussion kicks in). That's the point, where it get's (passive?) aggressive. Tell people they are dumb because they buy and bought expensive cable and converters. Bang! Start fighting ... forget beeing reasonable. That's the kind of reaction Ethan seems to have fun provoking IMO. Works somehow. :-P (Very counter-productive.) I'm not even going to respond to his last delusional post, Jassnoize in his unimaginable arrogance has managed to tell me what my original intent was repeatedly on this thread, and then proceeded to call me and others=circle jerkoffs, under qualified, failures, inferiority complexes, 6 year olds, cowards, in about 4 posts, and lets not forget the "cunt" incident from the past, I actually advocated on his behalf in the past, but the truth is, if he was standing in front of me right now, i'd cave his whole face in with one punch. I'd like to see him take a permanent hike. Upps, i was writing about Ethan Winer, not Jazznoize. You guys are posting so fast, the context was lost.... :-) |
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Post by jazznoise on Jun 18, 2015 21:01:06 GMT -6
Gee there's a guy who spends a fair amount of time on here who has a really nice AP who could prove you can measure what we hear in converters , he modded one for me! And is just down the street from Tony! If he can do it, great! That's all I've been asking for, a metric. Likewise, @smallbutfine, if you have clips then great. I'd rather have a discussion than an argument, which is actually why you need this stuff - to have a basis to work by. EDIT: And for the record, I'm sorry if I got up anyone's nose. I wasn't meaning to offend, but there are things I take issue with. Most people here have been extremely nice since I returned. |
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, let me simplify for you, i was making the very rudimentary and plain distinction between what i consider to be a piece of dynamic, hifidelity music, and what ethan uses as his sonic example for proving we cant tell differences in conversion, can you hear a difference between the Alison Krause stuff and Ethans stuff? I wonder how a trip through a soundblaster vs the custom conversion that was used on that recording would compare?
