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Post by Johnkenn on May 8, 2015 18:16:17 GMT -6
So I think I might be interested in trying this. What advantages would this route have? I normally bus all my channels down to a stereo track, then go out to my CAPI FC526's, then record back in through the Burl - then it routes to the master channel and various mastering plugs. So I'm getting that flavor. I still feel like I miss that thump and punch though.
You guys that use summing mixers - are you routing out to the summing mixer/console and then recording back in to the daw? And that's your final product?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
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Post by ericn on May 8, 2015 18:33:05 GMT -6
I think you've got it!
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Post by Johnkenn on May 8, 2015 18:48:46 GMT -6
So do you think the 526/Burl route is pretty much like having a summing box?
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Post by svart on May 8, 2015 18:58:08 GMT -6
So I think I might be interested in trying this. What advantages would this route have? I normally bus all my channels down to a stereo track, then go out to my CAPI FC526's, then record back in through the Burl - then it routes to the master channel and various mastering plugs. So I'm getting that flavor. I still feel like I miss that thump and punch though. You guys that use summing mixers - are you routing out to the summing mixer/console and then recording back in to the daw? And that's your final product? I mix out of Reaper through my SSL alphalink, into a mixer, and then back into my ADC into a different program(sound forge). I usually insert the hardware effects on inserts and sends via the mixer. Once it's back into sound forge, I'll do some minor compression to get the levels up, but that's it. I try to get things sounding as close to finished before I mix down. |
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Post by mrholmes on May 8, 2015 19:17:19 GMT -6
So do you think the 526/Burl route is pretty much like having a summing box? I mixed for a long time into a 1073. Summing alone wont give you much over ITB. The real fun starts with some outboard, does not has to be high end stuff. To me working hybrid is the biggest fun. I can use the most euphonic sounding HW, as well as Plug Ins. Another advantage to me is, when the console channels are all blocked I can use missing channels ITB and mix on with a console simulation. Best of both worlds. |
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Post by carymiller on May 8, 2015 20:03:41 GMT -6
So do you think the 526/Burl route is pretty much like having a summing box? I mixed for a long time into a 1073. Summing alone wont give you much over ITB. The real fun starts with some outboard, does not has to be high end stuff. To me working hybrid is the biggest fun. I can use the most euphonic sounding HW, as well as Plug Ins. Another advantage to me is, when the console channels are all blocked I can use missing channels ITB and mix on with a console simulation. Best of both worlds. Mixing Hybrid at the end of the day offers the most flexibility...and keeps things feeling unique in terms of stereo image and balance. However...more and more modern music feels homogeneous in a way where this is eschewed for the reliability of digital only mixes. I'm just not seeing as much by way of creative fine tuning in strictly digital mix environs...but on the flip side it's faster with perfect recall. |
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Post by gouge on May 8, 2015 20:26:39 GMT -6
My master recorder is a korg mr1000 dsd hanging off a console with a pair of lolas, lilpqrs and stereo buss comp.
From there I copy the dsf file to my computer and convert to any format with audiogate. Audiogate normalises and dithers.
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Post by jeromemason on May 8, 2015 20:58:39 GMT -6
So do you think the 526/Burl route is pretty much like having a summing box? I mixed for a long time into a 1073. Summing alone wont give you much over ITB. The real fun starts with some outboard, does not has to be high end stuff. To me working hybrid is the biggest fun. I can use the most euphonic sounding HW, as well as Plug Ins. Another advantage to me is, when the console channels are all blocked I can use missing channels ITB and mix on with a console simulation. Best of both worlds. I should do Wiz's mix w/ and w/o my BLA PM8's. Those transformers in those mixers and the imperfections alone to me feel head and shoulders above ITB. Granted, I do run the mix through VP28's before it hits the A/D but I can see what you'd mean if it were just like a resistor bus passive summing mixer, where it's basically not doing anything but summing channels L/R that are being fed, but, if you get the right type of mixers it definitely adds a lot to the sound. It makes it easier IMO when I mix through my rig, I'm not having to use near as much "stuff" to get a gelled open sound, just sort of happens. |
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Post by swurveman on May 9, 2015 6:57:50 GMT -6
I'm in the same boat as John in the respect that I'm curious about summing. The best I've heard to my ears is the Neve 8816. I did hear a difference, contrary to many who say they don't hear a difference in summing. So, perhaps its in the ear of the beholder.
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Post by carymiller on May 9, 2015 7:18:56 GMT -6
I'm in the same boat as John in the respect that I'm curious about summing. The best I've heard to my ears is the Neve 8816. I did hear a difference, contrary to many who say they don't hear a difference in summing. So, perhaps its in the ear of the beholder.
01. Great River Mixmaster 20: Multiple transformer stages on inputs and outputs more closely mimics a console in terms of mechanics. This combined with it's gigantic headroom really makes it stand out. While I don't think Great River products feel/respond/sound like Neve products, they're related in certain respects. To me it's a cross between a Neve and an API in tone, and it's probably the best option out there in terms of sonics and feature set. Also it has wonderful preamps...some of the best you can buy...which allow or zero latency monitoring while tracking as well. You can easily replace any four preamps in your rig with these and you'll feel like things are still on par or a serious upgrade. If you like the Neve 8816 than you'll love the Great River Mixmaster 20...it's twice the cost...but it sounds like it's worth considerably more. Lastly Great River has far better customer service in the USA than the other two companies, partially because Thermionic Culture is in England...and partially because they are far easier to communicate with than Shadow Hills Industries in my experience. While this is a complex design, I trust Dan Kennedy to fix problems should they arise with speed and efficiency. He's proven to me time and again that he has the best customer service in the business when you need fast turnaround repairs done.02. Thermionic Culture Fat Bustard: Sounds fantastic....I mean seriously fantastic...if a tube driven tone is what you want, this is the mixer for you. Other than the Great River, this is the best unit for getting a "big console" sound. It also helps make things feel more like tape due to the tube breakup. You need the 'Lil Bustard expander unit to get higher track counts than 14 inputs though, and these things generate a massive amount of heat so you want full vented U's of rack space above both units. Fantastic tone...listen to anything off of A-Z by ASH and you'll instantly hear it. (Arcadia off of A-Z is a fine example of the Fat Bustard oozing personality and depth of field...this is a dense Pro Tools mix, easily over 50-60 tracks minimum and it really gives it a sense of space.)The only feature this is lacking in comparison to the other two is an absence of preamps and zero latency monitoring. However the final two AUX inputs can be used for FX sends and returns instead of just another stereo input from your DAW. Also while no control is stepped the huge chicken head knobs are easy to recall due to their clean labeling. Additionally this unit has built in stereo width, EQ, and "Attitude" (Rooster/Culture Vulture) style harmonic distortion on the master section. Processors which none of it's competition have if I'm to be honest. It also has unbalanced I/O due to deliberate design choice made by the designer who specifies that this improved the sound, but everything is XLR and 1/4" on the rear...making it the easiest and best in terms of connectivity. Downside is you have to be really careful about tube maintenance, but in a lot of ways it's my favorite, and it's superior to Manley's Tube Mixer units in terms of tone and feature set...as well as ease of use. The biggest con to Thermionic Culture has been build quality during their early years, but the constant usage ASH got with their unit when they built an in-house studio...recording over 60 tracks in less than two years (now well over 100 in five years time not counting other projects they've helped produce) proved to me that they have moved beyond the early rough patch of being a new company, still their equipment is not cheap to maintain. 03. Shadow Hills Equinox: More subtle than the other two...yet also more flexible...faster to recall and a higher track count...yet obviously less saturated feeling than the others...it's got the best monitoring (mastering grade though light on features) of the three. The pres are again more flexible....but less powerful in terms of tone than the Great River due to a distinct lack of output attenuation...and there's only two of them. However if you want less to worry about and you don't want to have to constantly reset things or monitor sweepable pots and faders, this is your unit due to ease of recall. It gets you the closest to the others with only one transformer stage and doesn't involve a lot of work to get the hang of it. Unlike the Fat Bustard you again have zero latency monitoring when tracking with it's preamps. Another thing to think about is...how "modern" do you want to sound? The Equinox, due to it's design can offer far more subtle distortions than the other two...and you're not stuck with one type of vintage style tone. The Steel and Nickle Transformer options are far more subtle than the Neve-esque Iron....and although its not a transformerless modern thing...either will work in getting closer to that arena while also imparting a great tone.
Why I'm deliberately omitting many, many other designs, no matter what the price point is:There's other designs that look OK...but these are the ones I'd use mainly because they each beat out so many other similar units in terms of price Vs performance. Though admittedly, as with most Rupert Neve Designs units, I haven't gotten to try the 5059 and 5060 out, but it seems like they'd be a bit of a bitch to recall by comparison to these three if you read the manuals and look at the control feature set. API's THE BOX is almost identical in feature set to the Great River Mixmaster 20, however the Mixmaster is less than half the cost (and the Mixmaster is a bigger, bolder sound to boot with better Send and Return features!!!!) People defend the workflow of THE BOX...but while none of my choices have faders, that's really the least important feature to my mind over transformer stages and how things will saturate (and to be honest I find the layout of THE BOX to be counter intuitive. Especially the poorly implemented double 500 series slots which should have just been full channel strips like channels one and two when you take a look at the the HPF's included especially.)
Honorable Mention: The Aurora Audio Sidecar is a great choice if you have $25,000 (including wiring), in that you have enough channel strips to track a drum kit...however there's no real FX sends and returns except on the master fader, so it's actually more limited than the Mixmaster 20 and the Fat Bustard in terms of master section features. It gets honorable mention however because it looks sweet as hell. |
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Post by drew571 on May 9, 2015 8:32:05 GMT -6
what do you guys think about the radial workhorse 500 series rack with the summing mixer built in?
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Post by carymiller on May 9, 2015 8:36:46 GMT -6
what do you guys think about the radial workhorse 500 series rack with the summing mixer built in? I love the stereo link switches...and I think the routing is clever for tracking and monitoring for on location recordings and for brute force tone blending...but I wouldn't want to mix my records that way. It's well thought out and doable...but it's not going to give me a "tone" or a sense of space. See above as it qualifies as one of many designs I don't mention on purpose....narrowing down to those three summing mixer choices was hard to do and took a lot of research. |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 9, 2015 8:54:32 GMT -6
JMO, voltage summing is about comfy separation, image clarity, and compartmentalizing the image in an easy listening way, it makes a significant difference to my ears. I'd recommend getting a small great console with great eq, take advantage of the routing, and use some hardware to take it over the top, the more individual tracks you can sum in the voltage domain, the better the result. I have a JW modded Delta rig that will beat the living crap out of stuff costing $tupid. I'm a dye'd in the wool sub mix guy, i'm building balanced passive summing in banks of 8 to return to console channels in pairs, this is so they won't barely tickle the consoles analog summing path to retain maximum headroom(ala focusrite console). check this out, make sure you listen on your rig for maximum effect. www.solid-state-logic.com/Video/video_852x480.asp?file_name=http://sslwebcontent.s3.amazonaws.com/Video/lego/852x480/Lego_Summing.mp4&vid_title=%20Lego%20Studio%20-%20Summing |
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Post by Randge on May 9, 2015 9:27:45 GMT -6
I have a pair of the Radial Workhorses with summing. They sound really good and the Jenson transformers definitely keep it clean but robust when pushed.
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Post by carymiller on May 9, 2015 9:32:13 GMT -6
JMO, voltage summing is about comfy separation, image clarity, and compartmentalizing the image in an easy listening way, it makes a significant difference to my ears. I'd recommend getting a small great console with great eq, take advantage of the routing, and use some hardware to take it over the top, the more individual tracks you can sum in the voltage domain, the better the result. I have a JW modded Delta rig that will beat the living crap out of stuff costing $tupid. I'm a dye'd in the wool sub mix guy, i'm building balanced passive summing in banks of 8 to return to console channels in pairs, this is so they won't barely tickle the consoles analog summing path to retain maximum headroom(ala focusrite console). Submixes are the key IMO as well. The gain-staging and control you get, along with simplifying workflow is just too powerful to ignore. When you using a summing mixer...the only real way to mimic that response is to create submixes in the box and stem them out. Most are designed to work that way, but you're right there's far less by way of voltage and electronics in the signal path, so a lot of mixers have those advantages (not to mention EQ) However...the three boxes I listed, even though they are expensive...can compete with top shelf consoles if you know what you're doing (and I stress that last part, if you don't know how to plot your signal flow to accommodate their limitations they won't work out well for anyone.) I didn't list any of those three units because they're expensive, I listed them because despite what they cost they wind up being compact and competitive with Class A consoles in the right hands with top shelf converters. It's not the tactile experience of working on a console either Tony, so you wind up doubling down on template sessions and digital recall in your DAW. Trading workflow in a tactile sense for fast and brutal efficiency and time management (depending on the user, this could be a strength, or a disaster.) The reason these three standout however, unlike the dozens of other units I've experienced, is that the richness of tone is there in spades. Though the more I think about the Thermionic Fat Bustard II...the more I think of it as a small console in a way...at least there's EQ on the master section, etc. And the Mixmaster is similar in that it's more like the Submix section of a large format console alone with four extra mono channels...and at least with multiple transformer stages you get that saturation. |
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Post by mrholmes on May 9, 2015 9:35:52 GMT -6
I mixed for a long time into a 1073. Summing alone wont give you much over ITB. The real fun starts with some outboard, does not has to be high end stuff. To me working hybrid is the biggest fun. I can use the most euphonic sounding HW, as well as Plug Ins. Another advantage to me is, when the console channels are all blocked I can use missing channels ITB and mix on with a console simulation. Best of both worlds. I should do Wiz's mix w/ and w/o my BLA PM8's. Those transformers in those mixers and the imperfections alone to me feel head and shoulders above ITB. Granted, I do run the mix through VP28's before it hits the A/D but I can see what you'd mean if it were just like a resistor bus passive summing mixer, where it's basically not doing anything but summing channels L/R that are being fed, but, if you get the right type of mixers it definitely adds a lot to the sound. It makes it easier IMO when I mix through my rig, I'm not having to use near as much "stuff" to get a gelled open sound, just sort of happens. You get me wrong here. I know there is a difference, but my console is something very diffrent from the PM8 with transformers. So to me it makes more sense if I have physical inserts, sends etc…. I mean we have summing boxes out there for insane prices. I would buy a console for the cash…. and to be fair even any midrange console will give you something over ITB, but the fun strats with outboard. And in the end of the day I have to admit that some folks know how to do it ITB. I konow I was a long time discussing this. But in the end its important taht I like waht I hear, and not a matter fo ITB or OTB. |
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Post by carymiller on May 9, 2015 9:36:23 GMT -6
I have a pair of the Radial Workhorses with summing. They sound really good and the Jenson transformers definitely keep it clean but robust when pushed. They do sound pretty good, and they're more than pro for feature set. I just wanted to stress that I like them, I just don't think they compare to the three I singled out...and there's a massive price difference to illustrate as to why. For live rigs and additional summing with a main mixer I think they'd be fantastic...for tracking and multing down they work great. But they're just not that big iron, steel or tube thing I typically lust after. |
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Post by masteroftracks on May 9, 2015 9:42:19 GMT -6
Is anyone using a Tonelux otb16 or have experience with one?
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Post by Randge on May 9, 2015 9:44:00 GMT -6
Yeah, I use them for individual enhancement more than the weight needed for a 2-mix. Dan's Mix Master 20 is probably my summing step in the future as it will mate with my Tango console really well and not take up half the room like typical console arrangements do.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 9, 2015 9:54:04 GMT -6
Great posts Cary. So, if you were going to get a mixer instead of a summing mixer, and you had the $7,000 or so the summing mixers above cost, what would you like, and why.
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Post by carymiller on May 9, 2015 9:56:13 GMT -6
Is anyone using a Tonelux otb16 or have experience with one? A really great mixer who goes by the handle "Roundbadge"on GS uses one for extra summing on his API 1608; you can get his impressions if you search his posts there. He's got great taste in gear. I also have spoken with Paul Wolff a bit about it's design. There's a more than a few mixers who love to sum with the Tonelux stuff...it's great for what it costs, but ultimately a bit "wimpy" for that final 2Bus mix in comparison to my top three picks above. I'm sure it's one of the best sub $2,000 on the market...but I'm not sure that it's worth investing in summing mixers at that price point. |
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Post by carymiller on May 9, 2015 10:05:51 GMT -6
Great posts Cary. So, if you were going to get a mixer instead of a summing mixer, and you had the $7,000 or so the summing mixers above cost, what would you like, and why. Hey Martin thanks! The big problem is cabling. A full console needs reams of snakes to really work....so a small format console for $7,000....maybe a used Yamaha PM2000 like I'm selling off and some upgrades, but I'd need another $4,000 for the patchbay minium. There's a few other similar Yamaha designs which use Cinemag transformers like API's...but you need to upgrade the PSU to get them to really sing like consoles they were cloned after. I'm not a fan of the toft consoles...or Neotek's...I love 80's series Neves and API consoles mainly...and that's the closest you can get, but aside from mine which is for sale with custom furniture, a mobile rack and tons of snakes of Mogami and Canare I haven't seen one lately that wasn't beat to shit. I prefer my desk to Trident 80B's as well...but a used 80B or 80C in good condition is going to run minimum $20,000. Honestly there isn't much I'd like to mix on that can compete with the three summing mixers I mentioned if you're an experienced mix engineer who can really light up a DAW. I know Tony loves his modded Delta...and I'm sure it's better than a stock unit, but in 2004 I co-owned a small spot in Hoboken that had a stock Soundcraft Delta...and while it was an OK console for money, it wasn't anything all that special in terms of sonics on the 2Bus to mix through. Jim Williams must have done a number on Tony's desk to get him that excited about it! I'm not really impressed with recent SSL console designs mainly due to the sound...so a Nucleus or Matrix would NOT be on my list. Tonelux's modular system is alright...but a bit overcomplicated. I have to confess I've been reading Fat Bustard II and II LE manuals all morning...that might be what winds up replacing my PM2000...but it'll probably be that or the Great River Mixmaster 20. |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 9, 2015 10:19:13 GMT -6
IME, because they sound so cool, transformers can trick you into getting to much of a good thing, their compression is NOT dynamic, I always say the vp28 is the best light touch limiting compressor I own, and i'm not kidding, 3 tranny's! But you can compress/phase euphony the life right out of a track with tranny's on everything, my new to me delta 8 has sowter trannys on some channels, they indeed have the effect i expected. The PM8 bla seems cool because you can switch them in and out...i think?
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Post by carymiller on May 9, 2015 10:21:41 GMT -6
IME, because they sound so cool, transformers can trick you into getting to much of a good thing, their compression is NOT dynamic, I always say the vp28 is the best light touch limiting compressor I own, and i'm not kidding, 3 tranny's! But you can compress/phase euphony the life right out of a track with tranny's on everything, my new to me delta 8 has sowter trannys on some channels, they indeed have the effect i expected. The PM8 bla seems cool because you can switch them in and out...i think? . But I need transformers at least in multiple stages when tracking. However with a console full of cinemag....there's a hugeness to that sound you can't defeat with transformeless consoles and you wind up needing far less outboard to get things to feel alive. The Fat Bustard is transformerless...it's all tube distortion...which is again...givings to me the worst case of the *wants* Also in my case it would cut down on the I/O needed for a new rig in a way that helps my budget out tremendously. |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 9, 2015 10:31:08 GMT -6
carymiller I'm not comparing the delta to anything, it's too subjective, I would just call it a superb canvas, the diff between the stock and JW delta is comical, wiz has one also, I'd like to hear his thoughts now that he's lived with it a bit. I believe he can speak to the sonic diffs between a stock input channel vs a modded, although he doesn't have an un modded 2 buss to run it through, that tells an even more dramatic story! To be clear, the modded delta is not a mojo piece, it's very smooth and naturally transparent, super quiet, punchy and huge sounding, the eq's are also beauty and a half imo, very phase congruent, if i want mojo, i get it from other places.
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