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Post by carymiller on May 11, 2015 14:31:08 GMT -6
quality designed passive summing gives up to 90db CT specs, better separation, and a more defined image than active from what i've seen and heard, the benefits of summing are certainly not just in transformers, not by a long shot. No...I agree. But having a transformer based option which mimics every transformer stage in a classic console would mechanically give you a lot of a classic console's tone. Preamp > Fader Stage > 2Bus for example. I'm talking in terms of getting the best passive signal flow with a transformer tone people covet...and minimalistic features that in turn make recall fast and painless. |
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Post by carymiller on May 11, 2015 14:36:29 GMT -6
<<blushing slightly due to the obvious self promotion>> The answer is out there, it doesn't require 32 channels of AD/DA, it sounds awesome, it doesn't require a console or summing box, it has gain staging and tonal options that are unavailable ANYWHERE else (including any console out there), it doesn't require tons of patch bays and cabling..... It is : drBill's tone amp - the Louder Than Liftoff Silver Bullet. Brad McGowan and I researched this conundrum to the bone, and came up with this solution. It works. It will be available very soon. It's cost effective. Now, if you need a REAL console, with real faders, real aux sends, real bussing, and real individual EQ's, then get one - a real console is awesome. But get one with REAL tone associated with it like an API or neve. If you don't, then get a Silver Bullet for it's master 2 buss insert. Otherwise, the "summing" and mojo problems of ITB or Hybrid mixing have been answered......  See I wouldn't want a real console...but I do want two mono AUX sends with L R C panning switches on every channel. and one Stereo Aux Send autopanned L&R. L R C switches and switchable panning on four mono inputs...and L & R hard panned stereo inputs for the rest. I want two transformer stages on your inputs prior to the 2 bus...with a 3rd transformer stage there...and stepped attenuation with half dB steps on that master, wit some way to monitor the volume (VCA faders would be preferable. Inserts on the 2Bus would be great as well for final processing, but not required (you can live without it.) Buses won't be needed as I'd treat this like the Bus section on a console and just stem out from my DA. EQ wont be needed, etc...but + - 24v rails would be ideal... + - 16 would be fine. |
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Post by drbill on May 11, 2015 15:14:05 GMT -6
My experience with passive and "clean" summing is just the opposite. I like ITB better unless I've got a real console (Neve, API preferably). Better width. More solid bass. Once you get active and discrete electronics, tubes, transformers, DOA's, etc. into the signal path, THAT'S when going analog makes sense IMO. Otherwise, just stay ITB or go with a hybrid approach. ITB is better than crappy analog or passive summing. The bottom end is tighter, and if you've got a quality input, you're better off in many respects. Not to mention instant recall.
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Post by drbill on May 11, 2015 15:14:54 GMT -6
<<blushing slightly due to the obvious self promotion>> The answer is out there, it doesn't require 32 channels of AD/DA, it sounds awesome, it doesn't require a console or summing box, it has gain staging and tonal options that are unavailable ANYWHERE else (including any console out there), it doesn't require tons of patch bays and cabling..... It is : drBill's tone amp - the Louder Than Liftoff Silver Bullet. Brad McGowan and I researched this conundrum to the bone, and came up with this solution. It works. It will be available very soon. It's cost effective. Now, if you need a REAL console, with real faders, real aux sends, real bussing, and real individual EQ's, then get one - a real console is awesome. But get one with REAL tone associated with it like an API or neve. If you don't, then get a Silver Bullet for it's master 2 buss insert. Otherwise, the "summing" and mojo problems of ITB or Hybrid mixing have been answered...... See I wouldn't want a real console But what you are describing is closer to a console than to a summing box I think..... |
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Post by carymiller on May 11, 2015 15:44:43 GMT -6
See I wouldn't want a real console But what you are describing is closer to a console than to a summing box I think..... What I'm describing is mimicking the most important parts of a classic consoles tone mechanically. EQ would be great, but you can EQ in your DAW...Buses would be great, but if it's a small track count you've already stemmed out to buses in your DAW. The workflow is extremely simplified, and for the better for fast turnaround in a pro work environment, and it doesn't have to be bigger than 3U or 4U of rack space. If most channels and the mono AUX sends use L R C pan switches for most panning then it's perfectly recallable. No gain staging...just one big knob with half dB stepped attenuation at the end. The idea is that you mix through the thing from the start via a planned template session designed to work with it. I get the "bigness" of a class A console...without factors that require a lot of recall notes or sweepable pots. But i want FAST and repeatable workflow...but with both mono and stereo inputs with controlled panning in order to get the best balance I can. I effectively get a console, without reams of snakes...and without the thing weighing 400lbs....in my opinion this would crush it...the closest thing to this is the Great River Mixmaster 20, but I would have ditched the fader for a detented knob as described. Etc. And having LRC switches to swap out for any normal pan pots when you want it would really help keep things consistent mix to mix. Also variants based on classic console designs would be great for enthusiasts. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 11, 2015 15:57:03 GMT -6
I think one of the differences in ITB and OTB summing is the micro delays that you get from the analog domain. Signals have a speed in the real world, and routing them into a resistor network and PCB traces to sum them will cause slight differences in when they arrive, since not all traces are the same length. You can't obviously hear these differences, but they are there, and I think the time differences add a little of the "space" and "size". I'll explain.. When you track a guitar and want it to sound big and wide, you don't record it once and then just copy/paste the track again.. Why? Because the tracks aren't different enough for the brain to interpret them as, well, different! So you double track the guitar, but no matter how close you get, it will never be similar enough for the brain to mistake as just a copy. All of the micro delays, harmonic differences, etc, tell your brain that they are different tracks, and you can pan them wide and hear what sounds like super wide stereo version of one guitar. I think the same holds true with analog summing. Those micro differences that are added to the tracks as you sum, add to the illusion that the tracks are bigger, wider, etc. Paging Steven and Fabrice "New PCB emulation" |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 11, 2015 16:05:08 GMT -6
<<blushing slightly due to the obvious self promotion>> The answer is out there, it doesn't require 32 channels of AD/DA, it sounds awesome, it doesn't require a console or summing box, it has gain staging and tonal options that are unavailable ANYWHERE else (including any console out there), it doesn't require tons of patch bays and cabling..... It is : drBill's tone amp - the Louder Than Liftoff Silver Bullet. Brad McGowan and I researched this conundrum to the bone, and came up with this solution. It works. It will be available very soon. It's cost effective. Now, if you need a REAL console, with real faders, real aux sends, real bussing, and real individual EQ's, then get one - a real console is awesome. But get one with REAL tone associated with it like an API or neve. If you don't, then get a Silver Bullet for it's master 2 buss insert. Otherwise, the "summing" and mojo problems of ITB or Hybrid mixing have been answered...... I'm definitely interested. I know this is lazy, but I want a "silver bullet" that I can put my shit through and make it sound better...without getting a migraine from the process. |
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Post by drbill on May 11, 2015 16:25:42 GMT -6
<<blushing slightly due to the obvious self promotion>> The answer is out there, it doesn't require 32 channels of AD/DA, it sounds awesome, it doesn't require a console or summing box, it has gain staging and tonal options that are unavailable ANYWHERE else (including any console out there), it doesn't require tons of patch bays and cabling..... It is : drBill's tone amp - the Louder Than Liftoff Silver Bullet. Brad McGowan and I researched this conundrum to the bone, and came up with this solution. It works. It will be available very soon. It's cost effective. Now, if you need a REAL console, with real faders, real aux sends, real bussing, and real individual EQ's, then get one - a real console is awesome. But get one with REAL tone associated with it like an API or neve. If you don't, then get a Silver Bullet for it's master 2 buss insert. Otherwise, the "summing" and mojo problems of ITB or Hybrid mixing have been answered...... I'm definitely interested. I know this is lazy, but I want a "silver bullet" that I can put my shit through and make it sound better...without getting a migraine from the process. I hear ya. I don't know if I'm lazy or just super busy - or maybe both, but like you, I need something that sounds good if not great all the time without patching stuff in and getting all microscopic about audio stuff while I'm involved in creating. This does it for me. I've had the prototype sitting on my mix buss for over a year, and every time I try to take it off I end up going crazy. And back on it goes. Neither my analog console or analog summing had the same affect on me. The fact that it recalls easy and has a great general shaping EQ make it work. It's the one piece in my racks that makes me think I can keep working and maintain my sound while my console is in storage..... |
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 11, 2015 21:08:18 GMT -6
What is it exactly drbill?
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Post by drbill on May 11, 2015 21:23:54 GMT -6
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