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Post by cj1973 on Apr 13, 2015 1:18:08 GMT -6
I am glad to be here, so thanks for the invite kidvbes!
Basically, I currently have a Sony C800G, AKGC12Vr, vintage U87 and CAD VX2 for my go-to for vocals.
Here is something I wrote/produced/recorded...
I am looking to improve the quality of my recording and I recently heard a comparison between a vintage 251 vs a few other pieces including a few other vintage mics. What blew me away was the 'believability' of the vintage 251. It sounded slightly brighter compared to the new T-funk version, but the fact that I believed the singer on every word is what mattered for me.
So in saying this, I am looking to find if the believability of a great original 251 can be captured/replicated in a cheaper route. To me, when I say believability, it's not the technical stuff like frequencies, but more about how certain mics just sell the story better.
Would love to get your thoughts and help on this. I am going to be speaking with Shannon Rhoades soon, so will keep you posted as this quest begins......
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Post by sopwith on Apr 13, 2015 3:47:24 GMT -6
Firstly, welcome! My advice, as a very happy Mic Rehab customer? Step 1) Talk to Shannon Step 2) you're done  |
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 13, 2015 8:17:51 GMT -6
Yes welcome cj1973, Shannon is no doubt the man, I'd consider building or getting someone to build u the matachung C12/Ela M251 clone, or maybe a point to point copy on plexiglass, and then have Shannon dial it in, it's probably as great an option as there is out there short of an original.
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Post by kidvybes on Apr 13, 2015 8:31:53 GMT -6
Yes welcome cj1973, Shannon is no doubt the man, I'd consider building or getting someone to build u the matachung C12/Ela M251 clone, or maybe a point to point copy on plexiglass, and then have Shannon dial it in, it's probably as great an option as there is out there short of an original. ...yes Tony...I had suggested to cj1973 to consider this prototype build by Dany Bouchard...it was a collaborative effort between Dany and our beloved friend Oliver Archut (RIP)...body/headbasket are Oliver's AMI C12 replica and the PCB/PSU are Dany's own C12 interpretation designed to fit Oliver's body...I believe this would be a wonderful platform for Shannon to perform his magic... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 13, 2015 9:24:40 GMT -6
I would even throw in the MK-U47 with a K47 so Shannon can tune it.
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Post by cj1973 on Apr 13, 2015 10:33:06 GMT -6
Thanks everyone. Appreciate the initial directions and will navigate through. It's potentially my first step into the world of independently having a mic built but one never knows until they try!
In saying this, I think knowing my approach and workflow and I guess mostly personal preference, "ideally" it would be awesome to have a similar or same build quality (physically as opposed to circuits) of vintage units, so the somewhat looks and feels as good as it sounds. As much as this sounds strange, I've had clients just freak out over the look of a c800g and I've won the gig purely for that. Call it the new fickle!. It's been a few instances where a label has contacted my room purely because i have a c800g snd cl1b chain. Funny that and I don't buy it but that's also a reality of the world we live in.
On one side it's the super expensive vintage pieces, when in good health, sound stellar and so real/believable. This is also an appreciating investment and a hype machine.. On the other side, I could definitely have amazing "tools" not toys and a bunch of them for the same price point and have options that deliver quality sound.
Either way, it's worth exploring the latter, as these mics, if I make the right decisions, could be game changers for me and a whole bunch of audio folks I know.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 13, 2015 18:52:28 GMT -6
Did you ever see the JK's MK-U47 build thread? It looks almost identical to a Telefunken U47...and it's just fantastic the more I use it, the more I'm thrilled with it on everything. I'll post a clip of another song I just finished with it.
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Post by kidvybes on Apr 13, 2015 20:26:26 GMT -6
Did you ever see the JK's MK-U47 build thread? It looks almost identical to a Telefunken U47...and it's just fantastic the more I use it, the more I'm thrilled with it on everything. I'll post a clip of another song I just finished with it. ...that was the primary link I sent him, before he joined the forum...so I believe his quest is not the 251 or the MK-U47, but rather what 251 and the MK-U47... |
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Post by jeromemason on Apr 13, 2015 21:42:13 GMT -6
The Mic that Shannon and I built was so close to the vintage 251 when Randy would switch between the two you couldn't hear any difference. Shannon thought we were messing with him, it was pretty darn funny. What actually happened though, if you can believe it, we went beyond that mark, there was a massive amount of headroom after we'd dimed in the mic to emulate the 251 that Shannon went past it and man that mic is the best one I've ever heard. I've been so blasted busy with the move to Nashville I haven't been able to devote any time to getting more clips and showing folks what this mic can do. But, that's changing soon fellas, I'm getting settled down, and while I just tonight got back from another trip down to FL, this week I should be able to start working on one order we have and also putting the mic into use on a session I have Thursday. I'll get some files up soon.
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Post by watchtower on Apr 13, 2015 23:02:16 GMT -6
I would build a 251E. Dany still has the PCBs I believe, and then get a capsule from Tim Campbell, and you're golden. You can even paint the rear half of the headbasket black. One of those is on my to-do list; I already have the capsule.
Btw, the track you posted sounds great! Seems like you don't really need a better mic haha
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Post by cj1973 on Apr 14, 2015 1:27:35 GMT -6
Thanks fellas!!! Appreciate it. Jerome - yes please bring on some samples when you can. would love to hear it. Could I ask which components or skeleton you went with? Watchtower - I have no idea where to start. All i know is making songs and playing instruments, I cannot even solder properly. In saying this, I'd love to know your thoughts on how to go about DIY or who to get and what base mic you may choose to go with. Also thank you for the feedback on the track. Yes it was done in my room, I wrote/produced and played most of the instruments. It was a Sony C800G/1073DPA/CL1B going into an RCA desk with Melcor GME-20 Eq., Apogee converters. Mixed on RCA desk Circa 1967 at my place. TimCambell - It's an honor to hear from you!! Countless voices have sung into your pieces. Congrats!! Again, I have no idea where to start but have got a conversation going with Shannon - thanks to kidvybes Dennis for the intros!! As much as cost saving is key, it's more about the believability and of clips I have heard of the DIY vs vintage, I am struggling to find the believability in vocals in the new pieces - at least on the samples I am hearing and this is just one man's 0.02. I am not listening to frequencies like an engineer or technician, but more the honesty in the voice and it's capture. The clips here are another example and the vintage 251 on this is what did it for me, followed by Korby U67 / C12 and then new 251. proaudiotoys.com/AudioTests/TubeMicsComparison_3-29-2010/I get to record on to the reissue T-Funk 251 as well as Bock this week so will keep you posted as well. |
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Post by dandeurloo on Apr 14, 2015 6:51:47 GMT -6
I've got a mic that I will be tweaking towards a 251 and then I am gonna try my TC capsule in it. I have one from a number of years ago that I put in a cheaper mic. I want to try Tims capsule in a better mic. I have high hopes.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 14, 2015 7:43:06 GMT -6
Thanks fellas!!! Appreciate it. Jerome - yes please bring on some samples when you can. would love to hear it. Could I ask which components or skeleton you went with? Watchtower - I have no idea where to start. All i know is making songs and playing instruments, I cannot even solder properly. In saying this, I'd love to know your thoughts on how to go about DIY or who to get and what base mic you may choose to go with. Also thank you for the feedback on the track. Yes it was done in my room, I wrote/produced and played most of the instruments. It was a Sony C800G/1073DPA/CL1B going into an RCA desk with Melcor GME-20 Eq., Apogee converters. Mixed on RCA desk Circa 1967 at my place. TimCambell - It's an honor to hear from you!! Countless voices have sung into your pieces. Congrats!! Again, I have no idea where to start but have got a conversation going with Shannon - thanks to kidvybes Dennis for the intros!! As much as cost saving is key, it's more about the believability and of clips I have heard of the DIY vs vintage, I am struggling to find the believability in vocals in the new pieces - at least on the samples I am hearing and this is just one man's 0.02. I am not listening to frequencies like an engineer or technician, but more the honesty in the voice and it's capture. The clips here are another example and the vintage 251 on this is what did it for me, followed by Korby U67 / C12 and then new 251. proaudiotoys.com/AudioTests/TubeMicsComparison_3-29-2010/I get to record on to the reissue T-Funk 251 as well as Bock this week so will keep you posted as well. There's a lot factoring into these DIY mic builds, just throwing them together is not neccessarilly going to yield a great mic, there are a few cats around that really tweak them in, make sure u hear samples before saying ok, also make a deal that gives your builder the chance to adjust ur mic to ur taste. I've seen multiples of the same DIY mics sound sharply different, and some nothing like the classics they were modeled after. I might add that there is no more important single factor than the capsule ime, they can be tweaked to make sig diffs. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 14, 2015 8:08:11 GMT -6
Welcome aboard j1973, that track's fine, well done!
So many great suggestions and recommendations. Tim, so glad you like the Blackspade. Oliver Archut built my Blackspade UM17, and Shannon installed the Thiersch capsule for me. I'm still jonesing for the MKU-47, but if you say the Blackspade 251 with your capsule's killer, that gives me food for thought.
Gonna buy a lottery ticket today..
*I just tried to register at group DIY, but the bot that gives you a series of letters to type to prove your human was posting letters that were unreadable. Every time I tried to get a new image, the new letters were as bad or worse than the last. It was a weird experience. I wanted to take a look at the 251 that was mentioned earlier, ugh..
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Post by kidvybes on Apr 14, 2015 9:06:33 GMT -6
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Post by watchtower on Apr 14, 2015 9:28:37 GMT -6
Watchtower - I have no idea where to start. All i know is making songs and playing instruments, I cannot even solder properly. In saying this, I'd love to know your thoughts on how to go about DIY or who to get and what base mic you may choose to go with. Also thank you for the feedback on the track. Yes it was done in my room, I wrote/produced and played most of the instruments. It was a Sony C800G/1073DPA/CL1B going into an RCA desk with Melcor GME-20 Eq., Apogee converters. Mixed on RCA desk Circa 1967 at my place. Nice! Yeah, I thought I could hear that C800G thing going on. Regarding the 251E, learning how to solder wouldn't be that time-consuming. However, if you don't want to do that, there's plenty of people who would build one for you, including myself. The base mic is the Alctron HT-11A. It's a little bit thinner than a genuine 251, but it will mostly resemble the mic, and you can get one with a 2-layer headbasket, just like the vintage 251. store.studio939.com/product/alctron-ht-11a-tube-microphoneOn the other hand, you could buy a Blackspade UM25 (which is actually pretty much the same mic body, from what I understand) and then ask Tim to put his capsule in it, as he alluded to in his previous post. That would cost more than total DiY, but you wouldn't need to build anything, or pay anyone to build anything. The UM25C is a version that comes with Tim's capsule inside already, unless they've discontinued it. I haven't been following Blackspade recently, so I don't know. The UM25 is based on the 251, but uses a different tube. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 14, 2015 9:57:25 GMT -6
At every juncture, Mike from Blackspade had been more than helpful to me. Anyone leaning that way would do well to look at Blackspade's mics.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 14, 2015 11:22:18 GMT -6
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Post by cj1973 on Apr 14, 2015 11:37:11 GMT -6
Thanks Watchtower. Wow the UM25 looks fantastic. Where are the strengths? Similar to a 251? Would you know where these can be purchased? Is it from TAB directly or elsewhere? Would you suggest contacting Shannon and getting him to tweak it after purchase? It appears the TAB www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id86.html www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id134.htmlsells it as is? Could you please shed some light here? Is TAB still selling mics or are the doing limited work at this point? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 14, 2015 11:44:24 GMT -6
Yeah - the Blackspades are about as close look-wise as any I've seen out there. I think Shannon talked about machining some clone bodies at one point... |
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Post by mikec on Apr 14, 2015 12:05:36 GMT -6
I am a fan of the Pearlman mics. My Pearlman TM-250 blows me away every time I use it. I only wish I was handy enough to build some of the kits people talk about, but a man has to know his limits.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 14, 2015 13:20:00 GMT -6
Thanks Watchtower. Wow the UM25 looks fantastic. Where are the strengths? Similar to a 251? Would you know where these can be purchased? Is it from TAB directly or elsewhere? Would you suggest contacting Shannon and getting him to tweak it after purchase? It appears the TAB www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id86.html www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id134.htmlsells it as is? Could you please shed some light here? Is TAB still selling mics or are the doing limited work at this point? i'd say do yourself a favor and forgo the distracting frustrations and time waste, the DIY clones are great circuit matches, spend the money on great components and a great and meticulous builder who tweaks(cat5 types), put a GREAT capsule in there like Shannon's customs, or a TC with a high q tranny, and you'll have an elam 251 as close to the original in sound quality as possible, remember, the good builders will massage it into a beast, not just put the parts together and say "done!", i think Shannon has the sound of more top of the heap mics burned into his memory than anyone on the planet? If you give him ok, he'll give you back real nice, if you give him real nice, he'll give you back unreal! 8) I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the aforementioned would sound better than a brand new Telefunken Elam251E that costs $9,000! The telefunken sure looks nice for 5 times the price though.. 8) |
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Post by watchtower on Apr 14, 2015 13:39:24 GMT -6
Unless they changed it, it's a 2-layer headbasket like the ELAM. I have a Blackspade headbasket here, in fact. It fits the HT-11A body. Thanks Watchtower. Wow the UM25 looks fantastic. Where are the strengths? Similar to a 251? Would you know where these can be purchased? Is it from TAB directly or elsewhere? Would you suggest contacting Shannon and getting him to tweak it after purchase? It appears the TAB www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id86.html www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id134.htmlsells it as is? Could you please shed some light here? Is TAB still selling mics or are the doing limited work at this point? As far as I know, the Blackspade UM25 was designed by Oliver (TAB) and Blackspade together. I believe their partnership ended before Oliver passed away, however. The UM25 was reported/advertised as being a 251 clone, except that it used an "unknown" Mullard tube type with a different heater (this is what they said on another forum). So the circuit was adjusted for the new tube, but otherwise, was the same as a 251 (with a chinese CK12 copy). I suspect this last portion of the description regarding the tube is not quite accurate, as they also say a 6072 tube can be put in with no modifications, and I'm pretty sure I know what they did regarding the tube. The UM25C was the same, but with I think an upgrade PSU, upgraded shockmount, and Tim's famous capsule. I would personally not suggest capsule tweaking after purchase, but I have faith in Tim's abilities. Tim offers his own retuning/capsule adjusting service if you're not happy with how it is when it arrives. I can't really offer any more advice regarding that, since I've never used a Blackspade UM25 or UM25C. It looks like you can buy directly from TAB, but yeah, DiY will be way cheaper, if that matters to you. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 14, 2015 13:46:35 GMT -6
I am glad to be here, so thanks for the invite kidvbes! Basically, I currently have a Sony C800G, AKGC12Vr, vintage U87 and CAD VX2 for my go-to for vocals. Here is something I wrote/produced/recorded... I am looking to improve the quality of my recording and I recently heard a comparison between a vintage 251 vs a few other pieces including a few other vintage mics. What blew me away was the 'believability' of the vintage 251. It sounded slightly brighter compared to the new T-funk version, but the fact that I believed the singer on every word is what mattered for me. So in saying this, I am looking to find if the believability of a great original 251 can be captured/replicated in a cheaper route. To me, when I say believability, it's not the technical stuff like frequencies, but more about how certain mics just sell the story better. Would love to get your thoughts and help on this. I am going to be speaking with Shannon Rhoades soon, so will keep you posted as this quest begins...... Nice track man. Cool vibe, great sound. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 14, 2015 14:16:48 GMT -6
i inquired, and got a response, its a couple months out for the metal work, the headbasket will be an exact 251 copy, and the body tube will be dimensionally the same, no bottom cap, and no cutout for pattern switch i assume, unfortunately the price for the metal will be $1,000 to $1,200. |
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